Meaning of Primary vs. Secondary Divine Attributes?

[Confused]

While looking at the WoR “Ars Arcanum,” chart, a thought occurred: it seems that each KR order’s primary Divine Attribute is what attracts the requisite spren to that person in the first place (the “input”), and the secondary Divine Attribute is the “output” – how that person behaves once the Nahel bond is in place.

 

Here are the Divine Attributes for each order:

 

KR Order               Primary Attribute          Secondary Attribute

Windrunners           Protecting                        Leading

Skybreakers            Just                                 Confident

Dustrbringers          Brave                              Obedient

Edgedancers           Loving                             Healing

Truthwatchers          Learned                          Giving

LIghtweavers           Creative                           Honest

Elsecallers               Wise                                Careful

Willshapers              Resolute                          Builder

Stonewards              Dependable                     Resourceful

Bondsmiths               Pious                               Guiding

 

Here’s what I think happens:

• A Windrunner’s protectiveness attracts an honorspren, after which the Windrunner leads (Honor’s “binding” nature).
• A Skybreaker’s innate sense of justice attracts a highspren, after which the Skybreaker is more confident in making his or her judgments.
• A Dustbringer’s bravery attracts its spren, after which the Dustbringer tempers his or her courage (which can often be foolhardy) with adherence to others (“obedience”).
• An Edgedancer’s love, post-bond, enables him or her to heal.
• The benefit of a Truthwatcher’s erudition, post-bond, is given to others.
• A Lightweaver’s creativity, post-bond, allows others to see their true selves.
• An Elsecaller’s wisdom, post-bond, makes him or her more careful.
• A Willshaper’s resoluteness, post-bond, enables him or her to build.
• A Stoneward’s dependability, post-bond, makes him or her more resourceful.
• A Bondsmith’s piety, post-bond, helps guide others.

 

With some of these, its hard to distinguish whether the KR always evidenced both Attributes, contrary to my suggestion, or whether the secondary Attribute kicked in after the bonding. In others (Edgedancers and Lightweavers, for example), I think my suggestion works pretty well.

 

This probably lacks much significance, but I still found it interesting.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Confused

[bartbug]

I think this could be related very much to the "soft magic" aspect of the system, such as Kaladin's spear prowess or Shallan's Memories. Have an upvote, good sah.

[maxal]

Great post. Makes sense althought I still do not get how Dalinar is so pious... Becaus he upholds the Ways of Kings?

[kaellok]

So, I think your analysis of the "Primary" attribute is spot-on--that's the attribute that attracts the spren in the first place.  The Secondary, however, I'm not sure that I agree (or understand?) entirely with what you're saying.  It seems that the Secondary is what the spren work to change the people into being (wow, that sentence is terribly awkward, I apologize).  

 

Syl likes Kal because he wants to protect people, but she keeps pushing him to be a leader of the Bridgemen, rather than just trying to protect them.  The massive number of creations-spren around Shallan when she draws Pattern implies to me that he's attracted to creativity in the same way, but he pushes her to be honest (even when she tells lies, she is usually being honest with them).  Dalinar's piety brought him closer to the Almighty's spren, and the visions are there to try to help him guide people through the Final Desolation; speculation would be that if the Almighty were still alive, there'd be more direct help.

 

So, I guess it's not so much that the bond makes them act in the way of the Secondary, so much as the Secondary is the result of the spren's influence.

[1empyrean]

I don't really see the spren as causing either attribute and the interpretation that the primary attribute is the one that attracts the spren actually seems completely wrong to me.

 

The primary attribute is more like the essence of who the person is and the way they think and behave reflects this.  The inherent "abilities" that kaladin and shallan demonstrated (skill with spear, memorization abilities) are probably a dependant upon this.  I noticed that Kaladin has difficulty manifesting his fighting skills when he is betraying his primary attribute.  I wonder if Shallan's memorization and pattern recognition abilities would be disrupted similarily if she were to refuse to be creative (either by becoming super boring or by destroying her drawings and not making more).  minor theory: If someone who could be a KR isn't behaving the way that their primary attribute says they should, no minor inherent abilities for them!

 

I think that if a potential KR demonstrates both the primary and secondary attributes, it probably increases the likelyhood that a spren will bond to them.  Seeing as how the whole process of who gets to be a surge binder is still woefully vague, I can't come up with any details on how this would work.  (darn you allomancy, you were so easy to understand)

 

some things that this has lead me to conclude:

• I have suspicions as to how renarin might have triggered his bonding, but I don't actually know the timing.
• Szeth will have to become confident in order to actually become a real skybreaker, and this will likely require him to resolve his many issues and confront kaladin, who named him a coward in WoR.
• I suspect that the identity of the dustbringer has been well concealed by a number of factors, including a red herring.  I believe that the brave/obedient personality actually does not fit adolin (and if this theory is wrong and it is adolin, oh well this might be stretching a little anyways) or eshonai (i'm hoping she is the willshaper).  I believe that it is elhokar is the dustbringer, that he is actually brave despite the obvious signs of paranoia, and that doing what dalinar tells him to do actually triggers his bonding in the near future.  He used the word "pattern" while talking to kaladin in WoR and spoke of spren with unnatual angles in tWoK, and I believe we are meant to think that he might be another lightweaver (it is possible that this is actually the case) but I think that this is a red herring because he doesn't seem to have any inclination towards creativity.
• I think that gavilar might have become a bondsmith if things had happened differently.
• silly theory: the edgedancers were all refined food critics, and knew of the healing powers of awesome food...the lopen knows awesome food when he sees it...

[maxal]

Geez, if Elhokar turns out to be our Dustbringer and Adolin turns out being nothing, I am going to through my book away!

 

Adolin is the one being brave, reckless, foolhardy and he definitely is having trouble with the obedient part as he kills Sadeas. Elhokar has never shown one once of courage, not that he is a coward, but neither he is particularly brave. He wouldn't even let his uncle uses his sword to defend his son in the duel. If he were so brave/reckless, he would have jump in himself. He doesn't disobey either, he takes advice where he can and he tries to be the king when he can. He is severely illsuited for the position, he does not have natural charisma and his father's assassination has left him with this paranoia, but never could that be mistaken for being brave.

Edited April 25, 2014 by maxal

[Aleksiel]

This fits well Kaladin/Syl dynamics. She told him she first noticed him when he started protecting the young boys on the battlefield. Lift shows a lot of compassion - breaking in with the others because they might need her help, think of breaking out a boy she barely knew. Shallan drew a lot before her mother died and Dalinar has been pious so far.

 

However, I don't understand why Renarin is a Truthwatcher. He's interested in fabrials and knows a lot about wine according to Adolin, but does it really count as being learned? He shows bravery more often and more noticeably. Why Brandon didn't make him a Dustbringer still baffles me. Renarin has expressed desire to fight and be a warrior many times, which sits better with the Dustbringers.

 

Anyway, have an up-vote!

Edited April 25, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Moogle]

However, I don't understand why Renarin is a Truthwatcher. He's interested in fabrials and knows a lot about wine according to Adolin, but does it really count as being learned? He shows bravery more often and more noticeably. Why Brandon didn't make him a Dustbringer still baffles me. Renarin has expressed desire to fight and be a warrior many times, which sits better with the Dustbringers.

 

I think you're taking the word "learned" the wrong way. The Attributes have to do with what you do. Kaladin protects people (and leads), Shallan is creative and draws (and is 'honest' when telling people about what she sees), Dalinar sees visions (and enforces the Codes, ie. guiding). Renarian learns, ie. he watches things (or spies, if you'd prefer the term). The way Renarin inspects people and things definitely fits in there. The way Ym demanded stories from the urchins he helped also fits in.

 

Think of the Truthwatchers as the CIA of the Radiants, rather than the scientists, historians, or other 'knowledgey' professions. Illumination is an excellent tool for those who want to spy, though I'm not quite sure what Growth gives them. We haven't seen it used enough - perhaps it lets them make their illusions real, allowing for extremely effective disguises?

Edited April 25, 2014 by Moogle

[maxal]

This fits well Kaladin/Syl dynamics. She told him she first noticed him when he started protecting the young boys on the battlefield. Lift shows a lot of compassion - breaking in with the others because they might need her help, think of breaking out a boy she barely knew. Shallan drew a lot before her mother died and Dalinar has been pious so far.

 

However, I don't understand why Renarin is a Truthwatcher. He's interested in fabrials and knows a lot about wine according to Adolin, but does it really count as being learned? He shows bravery more often and more noticeably. Why Brandon didn't make him a Dustbringer still baffles me. Renarin has expressed desire to fight and be a warrior many times, which sits better with the Dustbringers.

 

Anyway, have an up-vote!

 

Re-geez. Renarin is sooooo ill fitted to be a Dustbringer! There are foolhardy badass warriors with obedience issues. Renarin is the quiet kid who always do as he is told. He hardly shows any sign of rebellion and the only reason he wants to be a warrior if because he believes it is the only way he can ever be usefull to his family. His struggles throught all books to find his place mostly because his "gift" is not inline with the Alethki ways. He therefore fights against it and try to be someone he is not.

 

Renarin is not going to be a warrior. He will be a wonderfull healer and a thinker. I believe he will eventually come in terms with this.

 

I really cannot see how Renarin could be fitted for this position. He jumped in one duel to help his brother. That was awesome, but the reckless fool was Adolin to begin with who decided to face four shardbearers knowing he had no chances of beating them.

[Aleksiel]

Re-geez. Renarin is sooooo ill fitted to be a Dustbringer! There are foolhardy badass warriors with obedience issues. Renarin is the quiet kid who always do as he is told. He hardly shows any sign of rebellion and the only reason he wants to be a warrior if because he believes it is the only way he can ever be usefull to his family. His struggles throught all books to find his place mostly because his "gift" is not inline with the Alethki ways. He therefore fights against it and try to be someone he is not.

 

Renarin is not going to be a warrior. He will be a wonderfull healer and a thinker. I believe he will eventually come in terms with this.

 

I really cannot see how Renarin could be fitted for this position. He jumped in one duel to help his brother. That was awesome, but the reckless fool was Adolin to begin with who decided to face four shardbearers knowing he had no chances of beating them.

 

I can argue Renarin is brave on many occasions (facing a chasmfiend, asking to be part of Bridge Four, etc) and we don't know why he wants to be a soldier, so don't assume he thinks he's useless otherwise. 

 

 

I think you're taking the word "learned" the wrong way. The Attributes have to do with what you do. Kaladin protects people (and leads), Shallan is creative and draws (and is 'honest' when telling people about what she sees), Dalinar sees visions (and enforces the Codes, ie. guiding). Renarian learns, ie. he watches things (or spies, if you'd prefer the term). The way Renarin inspects people and things definitely fits in there. The way Ym demanded stories from the urchins he helped also fits in.

 

Think of the Truthwatchers as the CIA of the Radiants, rather than the scientists, historians, or other 'knowledgey' professions. Illumination is an excellent tool for those who want to spy, though I'm not quite sure what Growth gives them. We haven't seen it used enough - perhaps it lets them make their illusions real, allowing for extremely effective disguises?

 

Thanks, Moogle, this makes a lot of sense.  Isn't growth just one aspect of progression, like re-growth is a variation of growth? I wonder if progression could  influence tides for example. But I might be misunderstanding the word. I'm certainly curious what Renarin could do with his surges. 

[maxal]

I can argue Renarin is brave on many occasions (facing a chasmfiend, asking to be part of Bridge Four, etc) and we don't know why he wants to be a soldier, so don't assume he thinks he's useless otherwise. 

 

 

I am not saying Renarin is not brave, but "brave" isn't was I would use to qualify him. I think the words "thoughtfull" or "reserved" would qualify him best. Knowing the Truthwatchers primary attribute is "learned" I do think it is quite a good match. As for him thinking he is useless if he does not become a warrior, he says so himself in WoK. He supplies his father to let him try again to be a soldier, to be usefull. I do not have the exact quote here, but that was pretty much the essence of the conversation. He also says somehting along the lines when he begs Kal to take him in Bridge 4.

 

Renarin wants to be a soldier because he was raised in a family of soldiers. He is ill qualified for this for numerous reasons and Dalinar has tried to convince him to choose another path in WoK. That doesn't mean he is not brave. Jasnah is brave, but she certainly isn't a soldier. A person can show some bravery without being a soldier. However I would not use the word "brave" to qualify Jasnah anymore than I would use it to qualify Renarin mainly because it is not their main attribute.

[digitalbusker]

Don't forget that one of the things Syl mentioned to Kaladin when she was explaining what she remembers of his time in the army was that other soldiers, even some of the lighteyes, looked up to him. I think the spren-attraction has components of both attributes.

[kari-no-sugata]

However, I don't understand why Renarin is a Truthwatcher. He's interested in fabrials and knows a lot about wine according to Adolin, but does it really count as being learned? He shows bravery more often and more noticeably. Why Brandon didn't make him a Dustbringer still baffles me. Renarin has expressed desire to fight and be a warrior many times, which sits better with the Dustbringers.

 

In tWoK (page 184 of hardback) there's this quote: Some women Adolin knew said Renarin's ways made them feel as if he were dissecting them with his mind.

 

Seems to be an early hint right there. Not so much of being "learned" but insight and observation.

Edited April 25, 2014 by kari-no-sugata

[Aleksiel]

In tWoK (page 184 of hardback) there's this quote: Some women Adolin knew said Renarin's ways made them feel as if he were dissecting them with his mind.

 

Seems to be an early hint right there. Not so much of being "learned" but insight and observation.

 

I didn't make the connection between observing and being learned. I thought the 'learned' attribute was supposed to represent someone with fast knowledge like Jasnah or Navani, which is the most straight forward way to define the meaning. However, English isn't my native language and connections such as yours and Moogle's sometimes are lost to me. It makes better sense now, though I haven't thought if Renarin as being insightful.

 

What is more, until this theory I thought both attributes should be present, thus my annoyance how exactly is Shallan an example of honsty and my confusing on Renarin, because he has been obedient far more than giving imo. But if the secondary attribute follows after, then it all fits.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Aleksiel

[maxal]

I didn't make the connection between observing and being learned. I thought the 'learned' attribute was supposed to represent someone with fast knowledge like Jasnah or Navani, which is the most straight forward way to define the meaning. However, English isn't my native language and connections such as yours and Moogle's sometimes are lost to me. It makes better sense now, though I haven't thought if Renarin as being insightful.

 

What is more, until this theory I thought both attributes should be present, thus my annoyance how exactly is Shallan an example of honsty and my confusing on Renarin, because he has been obedient far more than giving imo. But if the secondary attribute follows after, then it all fits.

 

Yeah but you have to keep in mind that we are talking about a person "primary" attribute. Renarin is very obedient, but that is not his main attribute. He is more seen as thoughtfull, insightfull, observant, curious, but a quiet sort of curiosity. He dissects everything that comes under his hands. So yes, I think "learned" can easily qualify for him as he is primarly a scholar in a world were scholars are women.