Toaster Retribution

So, what did Nale swear?

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What did Nale swear to follow as his 3d oath? It seems like it might have been the law of any random place he chooses to visit, but he also talks about the law of the land as his reason for joining the Voidbringers. So, what did Nale actually swear?

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I think it was to uphold the law of the land.  Only thing I can think of that would make sense for him to switch sides and not loose his sprenbond

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I'm with Calderis. My money is on following Ishar, based on how much he goes to ask him stuff.

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The problem with the Ishar theory is that if he is following Ishar, then why go join the Voidbringers? Unless Ishar uses him as some sort of spy. Because from what we know of Ishar, he isn’t really the guy who would join Odium. 

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We actually don't know if Nale joined the voidbringers, we know that most of the Skybreakers joined the voidbringers.

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33 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

The problem with the Ishar theory is that if he is following Ishar, then why go join the Voidbringers?

This is obviously speculative, but I think the Skybreakers Fifth supercedes the previous oaths. 

I think this because almost anything he could have sworn would suffer the same issue. If he swore to Ishar, why would Ishar agree to this? If he swore to some type of law, he's abandoning that. 

The only oath I could see fitting before and after is if he swore to "God" and Odium has replaced Honor in that... But then you run into the whole Oathpact issue. 

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11 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This is obviously speculative, but I think the Skybreakers Fifth supercedes the previous oaths. 

I think this because almost anything he could have sworn would suffer the same issue. If he swore to Ishar, why would Ishar agree to this? If he swore to some type of law, he's abandoning that. 

The only oath I could see fitting before and after is if he swore to "God" and Odium has replaced Honor in that... But then you run into the whole Oathpact issue. 

I was thinking along those lines as well, and I think it fits for several reasons. For one, the Law as far as the Skybreakers as concerned is a stopgap, it's not perfect it's just the best they have at the time, so it would not be out of character for them to set a lower Ideal aside when another comes along that supersedes it.  Also, Nale said the Fifth Ideal makes them "a personification of law and truth" which seems to fit that model.  On top of that, you'd presumably not qualify for the fifth Ideal until you first accomplished the Crusade defined by your Fourth Ideal, so that would be at least one of the previous Ideals that would be obsolete. 

 

I Really  want to know what Nale considered his Crusade.  Im assuming it's not just the whole Hunting Radiants, if he's still doing that but has progressed to the 5th?

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The only thing I can think of that makes sense of him changing sides to support the Singers is what others have already mentioned, swearing to follow the rightfully passed laws of whatever land he's in. The fifth oath is what allows him to decide who he thinks the rightful rulers of the land are.
I think what allowed him to not be involved in the battle was the fact that there aren't any codified laws of the Singers at present.

I have a suspicion that his quest was retrieving his honorblade.

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6 hours ago, Calderis said:

My bet's on Ishar. 

I really like this idea, but I can't help but wonder if Nale swore more of a "greater good" type of Ideal, since the meaning of "whose greater good?" can change from humans to Dawnsingers to both to neither.

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Interesting that if not all Skybreakers would join Nale then we might see the first deadblades from their order(cause apparently they didn't have deadblades on the recreanes) with them not following their oath to follow Nale OR maybe we'll Szeth won't actually be alone in the tower as the solo skybreaker ? That would be nice

2 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I will be eternally disappointed if the 5th Skybreaker oath isn't "I AM THE LAW"

 

It has to be. Pls let it be

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Of course, all this is assuming that the Heralds swear to the ideals of their respective corp.

And I thought it was obvious that Ishar is actively working against the Oath-Pact by sicking the SkyBreakers on the other orders and using Nale's dependence for guidance to put them on the side of Odium. Even though our beloved Herold of Law says he is the only one still sane, the StormFather describes him as the most mad and most hateful.

I have decided that either the patron of the BondSmiths has been taken over by the influence of the Void or his madness had turned him against everything he once held dear.

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10 hours ago, Calderis said:

This is obviously speculative, but I think the Skybreakers Fifth supercedes the previous oaths. 

I think this because almost anything he could have sworn would suffer the same issue. If he swore to Ishar, why would Ishar agree to this? If he swore to some type of law, he's abandoning that. 

The only oath I could see fitting before and after is if he swore to "God" and Odium has replaced Honor in that... But then you run into the whole Oathpact issue. 

But he could have sworn to the law of the land to begin with. He never said that he is switching to the new god, but to the old owners of Roshar, which are the Listeners, because of the law of the land. I like the Ishar idea, and there is stuff pointing to it, but I unless new Oaths simply replace old ones for Skybreakers, I really don’t see how he could side with both Ishar and the Voidbringers. 

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10 hours ago, dvoraen said:

I really like this idea, but I can't help but wonder if Nale swore more of a "greater good" type of Ideal, since the meaning of "whose greater good?" can change from humans to Dawnsingers to both to neither.

I tend to think this is more or less the case for the 5th.  To become the sort of Personification he describes would, I think, preclude the sort of follower Oath that the 3rd is.  Also worth noting, Szeth's form of the 2nd specifically states that it is only in force until he finds a "more perfect Ideal", so there a much more specific example of the skybreaker Ideals being somewhat mutable and getting set aside as they move forward. 

 

6 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

But he could have sworn to the law of the land to begin with. He never said that he is switching to the new god, but to the old owners of Roshar, which are the Listeners, because of the law of the land. I like the Ishar idea, and there is stuff pointing to it, but I unless new Oaths simply replace old ones for Skybreakers, I really don’t see how he could side with both Ishar and the Voidbringers. 

Ill admit Nale's logic has been bugging me for a while though, it seems flawed.  He talked about "Law of the Land" and how authority goes up the social scale (local lord up to king, etc).  But then he went right on and said that above the mortal Authorities in that chain of command are the Gods of the Land.  So if his logic is to follow the "rightful" authority on Roshar, it wouldnt follow the singers over to Odium, Odium is still the Invader, but should go to Cultivation as the Surviving Defender of her besieged home.  The fact that both races of mortal fodder have switched sides shouldnt change that.

This had been bugging me for a while, but I really like the possibility that it's a flawed argument because it's a piece of manipulation handed him by Ishar. 

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8 hours ago, Joseph Archuleta said:

Of course, all this is assuming that the Heralds swear to the ideals of their respective corp

The heralds don't swear the oaths as a general rule, but Nale claims that he has completely joined the Skybreakers.

 

8 hours ago, Joseph Archuleta said:

And I thought it was obvious that Ishar is actively working against the Oath-Pact by sicking the SkyBreakers on the other orders and using Nale's dependence for guidance to put them on the side of Odium. Even though our beloved Herold of Law says he is the only one still sane, the StormFather describes him as the most mad and most hateful.

I have decided that either the patron of the BondSmiths has been taken over by the influence of the Void or his madness had turned him against everything he once held dear.

We don't know that he's actively trying to subvert the oathpact specifically, but you are right that he is crazy and Nale is very wrong to trust him.
That doesn't mean Nale's third oath can't have been to follow Ishar's orders.

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7 hours ago, Quantus said:

 

This had been bugging me for a while, but I really like the possibility that it's a flawed argument because it's a piece of manipulation handed him by Ishar. 

The problem is that Ishar, who seems to be the Stormlight version of Treebeard in that he is on his own side, because no one wants to be on his side, would have to be incredibly stupid if he tricks his right hand man into following Odium. 

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8 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

The problem is that Ishar, who seems to be the Stormlight version of Treebeard in that he is on his own side, because no one wants to be on his side, would have to be incredibly stupid if he tricks his right hand man into following Odium. 

Nah, Treebeard wasnt batsh*t crazy like Ishar was, and batsh*t crazy is all t would take for a herald to switch sides and follow Odium, at which point convincing other heralds of the same would just be the next logical step.

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Just now, Quantus said:

at which point convincing other heralds of the same would just be the next logical step.

assuming Moash and Jasnah don't kill them all first

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3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Nah, Treebeard wasnt batsh*t crazy like Ishar was, and batsh*t crazy is all t would take for a herald to switch sides and follow Odium, at which point convincing other heralds of the same would just be the next logical step.

I disagree. Ishar is crazy, yes, but all we know of him hints at him being a lone madman. He thinks he is a god, and seeks the death of every man. I feel like he has his own agenda, and will be a wildcard, a little like Mraize and the Ghostbloods (although Mraize is defenitely the more sane one out of the two). 

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4 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I disagree. Ishar is crazy, yes, but all we know of him hints at him being a lone madman. He thinks he is a god, and seeks the death of every man. I feel like he has his own agenda, and will be a wildcard, a little like Mraize and the Ghostbloods (although Mraize is defenitely the more sane one out of the two). 

That's kind of my point: All we really know is that (per WOB) Ishar is legitimately Crazy, and given that we can assume nothing of his true loyalties, goals, or motivations, at which point we cant say whether tricking Nale into following Odium is stupid, clever, or maybe just plain suicidal. 

 

19 minutes ago, Wreith said:

assuming Moash and Jasnah don't kill them all first

Could be his whole goal, actually.  He was already a big fan of killing off all Radiants for the Greater Good (supposedly) so it wouldnt be a huge leap to want to wipe out the Heralds for the same reason.

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4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

That's kind of my point: All we really know is that (per WOB) Ishar is legitimately Crazy, and given that we can assume nothing of his true loyalties, goals, or motivations, at which point we cant say whether tricking Nale into following Odium is stupid, clever, or maybe just plain suicidal. 

 

Could be his whole goal, actually.  He was already a big fan of killing off all Radiants for the Greater Good (supposedly) so it wouldnt be a huge leap to want to wipe out the Heralds for the same reason.

Ishar is seeking his own death accoording to Stormfather, so he is defenitely not playing safe. Wiping out the Heralds could defenitely be a goal of his. The only legitimate reasons for Ishar to send Nale to Odium would be to get rid of him, or to have him act as a spy of sorts. I don’t think the Heralds do wierd stuff just because they are mad. If they did, Brandon could have them do all kinds of wierd crem and wave it off with ”they are mad”. There is a pattern to the madness. 

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22 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Ishar is seeking his own death accoording to Stormfather, so he is defenitely not playing safe. Wiping out the Heralds could defenitely be a goal of his. The only legitimate reasons for Ishar to send Nale to Odium would be to get rid of him, or to have him act as a spy of sorts. I don’t think the Heralds do wierd stuff just because they are mad. If they did, Brandon could have them do all kinds of wierd crem and wave it off with ”they are mad”. There is a pattern to the madness. 

But Im mean, they are Crazy, and that is why they are doing all the various weird things they are all doing.  That doesnt preclude them from having their own justifications which they truly believe in (or not, could be compulsions), nor would it prevent Brandon from using said madness in a narrative satisfying way.  Nor just it require them to be the drooling in a straight-jacket sort of crazy.  By all indications they've each developed individual forms of madness, and madness can be rational-seeming just as easily as it can be flamboyant chaos.  The coldly rational-seeming madness is, in my opinion, the more frightening by far.

 

Edit: As a point of reference, Id consider Mr T. to be just as batshit crazy on most of his days, and yet there remains very much a Pattern to his madness.

Edited by Quantus
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8 hours ago, Quantus said:

I tend to think this is more or less the case for the 5th.  To become the sort of Personification he describes would, I think, preclude the sort of follower Oath that the 3rd is.  Also worth noting, Szeth's form of the 2nd specifically states that it is only in force until he finds a "more perfect Ideal", so there a much more specific example of the skybreaker Ideals being somewhat mutable and getting set aside as they move forward. 

 

Ill admit Nale's logic has been bugging me for a while though, it seems flawed.  He talked about "Law of the Land" and how authority goes up the social scale (local lord up to king, etc).  But then he went right on and said that above the mortal Authorities in that chain of command are the Gods of the Land.  So if his logic is to follow the "rightful" authority on Roshar, it wouldnt follow the singers over to Odium, Odium is still the Invader, but should go to Cultivation as the Surviving Defender of her besieged home.  The fact that both races of mortal fodder have switched sides shouldnt change that.

This had been bugging me for a while, but I really like the possibility that it's a flawed argument because it's a piece of manipulation handed him by Ishar. 

That is a good point. Maybe somebody will point this out to him and force him to switch sides once more!

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