A Joe in the Bush

Mid-Range Game 31: Spiritual Warfare

455 posts in this topic

Re-examining the rules, with the multi-faction thing:

I do not think revealing factions will work. The people in multiple factions could likely be cleared (maybe) and we might get a person or two not in any of them, but role-hunting benefits only the Elims this game, IMO, and if the factions are more close-lipped about their members it will restrict the information available to Team Evil. It is possible that the Elims started in two of the “main” gangs and thus know who most everyone is. I’m willing to accept that as a price for not removing all doubt surrounding the issue, as it is now my firm belief that Raoden and Galladon are in a faction—having both as Independents would likely break the game. Thematically, there’d be one in Aanden’s group and another as an Independent or Child of Karata, but we don’t know. Revealing faction lists won’t give us that information, either, thanks to the Independents, as well as possible secret roles. Therefore, in the interests of keeping as much information as possible out of Eliminator hands so they don’t try to go hunting around for a player they’re concerned about in a list we gave them, I will not be divulging information about my faction. 

Edit: Also keep in mind Spirits and Independents will show up likely as being in one faction, as they’re not about to confess being in another one. :P 

Edited by Fifth Scholar
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2 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Re-examining the rules, with the multi-faction thing:

I do not think revealing factions will work. The people in multiple factions could likely be cleared (maybe) and we might get a person or two not in any of them, but role-hunting benefits only the Elims this game, IMO, and if the factions are more close-lipped about their members it will restrict the information available to Team Evil. It is possible that the Elims started in two of the “main” gangs and thus know who most everyone is. I’m willing to accept that as a price for not removing all doubt surrounding the issue, as it is now my firm belief that Raoden and Galladon are in a faction—having both as Independents would likely break the game. Thematically, there’d be one in Aanden’s group and another as an Independent or Child of Karata, but we don’t know. Revealing faction lists won’t give us that information, either, thanks to the Independents, as well as possible secret roles. Therefore, in the interests of keeping as much information as possible out of Eliminator hands so they don’t try to go hunting around for a player they’re concerned about in a list we gave them, I will not be divulging information about my faction. 

Edit: Also keep in mind Spirits and Independents will show up likely as being in one faction, as they’re not about to confess being in another one. :P 

Wait. So am I understanding you right in saying that you believe that Raoden and Galladon are in factions(therefore knowing who else is also in those factions) and that you believe that restricting the information about who is in which faction from the thread, we will keep that out of the Spirits' hands? If so, I don't understand. If they're in a faction, they already know who's in that faction. 

The negatives I see from sharing faction lists are: 

  1. that the Independents' lose their anonymity(Not a big deal, IMO)
  2. If the Spirits are in 2 gangs already, then we confirm exactly who's in the 3rd faction, thus narrowing down the third Faction leader
  3. If the Spirits are not in other gangs already, then we narrow down who the faction leaders are for them. (This is the biggest risk, but if this is what happens, we'd also narrow the Spirits' identities down immensely.
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I'm just going to throw out the idea that with the public plan of having independents out themselves, what's to stop Spirit's gang from claiming that?

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Shouldn’t we be focused on eliminating the eliminators? Now that I’ve actually read the rules it seems kind of foolish to target against other factions in elantris when they’re fine as it is. 

Also im like 90% sure there’s a secret faction. 

Edited by Steeldancer
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@Mailliw73 I'm not assuming they aren't in a gang already (the Spirits), I'm saying that having the Independents out themselves narrows down the list of who the gang *leaders* are in those gangs. Because even the gangs won't know who their leaders are. And if the elims  know who all the Independents are that just adds to their list of everyone's roles. Because an independent can't be a gang leader even if they're in a gang. The rules state that the independents don't have any sub roles so they can't be gang leaders right?

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3 minutes ago, Elandera said:

I'm just going to throw out the idea that with the public plan of having independents out themselves, what's to stop Spirit's gang from claiming that?

Independents have the ability to PM people without an action, so they would theoretically PM everyone 1 on 1 conversations.

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4 minutes ago, BrightnessRadiant said:

@Mailliw73 I'm not assuming they aren't in a gang already (the Spirits), I'm saying that having the Independents out themselves narrows down the list of who the gang *leaders* are in those gangs. Because even the gangs won't know who their leaders are. And if the elims  know who all the Independents are that just adds to their list of everyone's roles. Because an independent can't be a gang leader even if they're in a gang. The rules state that the independents don't have any sub roles so they can't be gang leaders right?

Um. If you're an Independent in a Gang, you won't be outed by this method. My idea is not to out all the Independents; my idea was to have one member of each gang post their gang's player list so that we narrow the rest down to those who are Fully Independent and Spirits. Or, if the Spirits are in the gangs already, then we'll learn that.

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2 minutes ago, BrightnessRadiant said:

Yeah but what if the Independents aren't in any gangs at all? 

Then they add nothing to the Spirits if the Spirits know about them, unless the Spirits aren't in a gang either. IF they aren't then we just narrowed it down immensely. Yes, that would then lump the Independents and the Spirits together and we'd have to go through them to be sure one way or another about them, but the real Independents can start PMs.

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Ashertma ceased her silent dance to realize that the inhabitants of the city had started discussion without her. Perhaps the newcomers had food. She would have to find out.

37 minutes ago, Mailliw73 said:

The negatives I see from sharing faction lists are: 

  1. that the Independents' lose their anonymity(Not a big deal, IMO)
  2. If the Spirits are in 2 gangs already, then we confirm exactly who's in the 3rd faction, thus narrowing down the third Faction leader
  3. If the Spirits are not in other gangs already, then we narrow down who the faction leaders are for them. (This is the biggest risk, but if this is what happens, we'd also narrow the Spirits' identities down immensely.

Outing the independents is not the worst consequence, as Independents need to out themselves in order to use one of their abilities(creating PMs). The chances are fairly high that the Independents will eventually end up sending a message to a Spirit or a converted Spirit.  For 2 and 3 though, I don't think we'll be able to tell which is the case unless everyone is in one of the three main gangs or a full third of players plus two aren't on any of the lists, which limits the useful information we would get out of this. If I'm wrong about this, please tell me.

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15 minutes ago, Sart said:

Independents have the ability to PM people without an action, so they would theoretically PM everyone 1 on 1 conversations.

I also just realized independents are the only ones who can create a PM, so ignore my comment. :P

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@Mailliw73

But my point is then it would also narrow down the field for the Spirits when it comes to village roles. Because if I was a Spirit then one of my main goals would be to find the gang leaders quicker since one of their win cons is killing or converting all the gang leaders. 

Because if the Independents are revealed to be completely independent then it narrows down the player possibilities for who they are.

I can see your point about it narrowing down our chances tho. If the Spirits aren't in a second gang yet it would help to know that before they start converting. I just feel like information could be over shared.

Edited by BrightnessRadiant
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Personally, I'm of the opinion that only one of the Spirits starts in a gang.  Galladon would be my pick for lore reasons.  But let's look at this logically,
If both Spirits start as Independent, then we are handing them a larger amount of information.  They will know exactly who to target to get a spy in each faction.
If only one Spirit is in a faction, then we still give them a rather large amount of information.
If both Spirits start in another faction, then little information is given away by revealing who is Independent but they will still learn who to target to get into the third group rather than having to guess.
Best case is that both Galladon and Raoden start as Independents and we narrow down the suspect list considerably,but I still don't see the information we get outweighing what we give them.  On top of that, Spirits can convert anyone which means that even if we lynch both of them in two cycles, we will still have two others hidden elsewhere.

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@Alvron yes that lol. My point is that information is dangerous when it comes to helping the elims narrow down choices for anything. I know one game I played as an elim we had almost every role accounted for in only like 2 or 3 cycles because people overshared.

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For instance, let's pretend this is what happens:

Astrea (Crimsn Wolf) is a Baron and posts this as his faction's list:

  • Astrea (Crimsn Wolf)
  • Mist (Fifth Scholar)
  • Ynoga (xinoehp512)
  • Daan (Kidpen)
  • Venele (Brightness Radiant)

Then Ashertma(Devotary) posts a list of the Wildmen:

  • Ashertma (Devotary of Spontaneity)
  • Rena (Elandera)
  • Squid of Sensationalism (Steeldancer)
  • Agri Kai (Walin)
  • Spork (Cadmium Compounder)
  • Mii (Mailliw73)
  • Itiah X (I think I am here)

And finally, Alv posts this list as the Children:

  • Diir (Alvron)
    Straw (Straw (Straw (Straw)))
    Soul (Droughtdrinker)
    Flavio (TheMightyLopen)

That would leave these people as not being in any gang:

  • A Shqueev (Multiple Shqueeves)
  • Kielan (MetaTerminal)
  • Sheol (ElephantEarwax)
  • SIGN ME UP (Coop772)
  • Rat (Sart)
  • Kaido (Young Bard)

This would mean that the Spirits aren't in a gang, because of the original percentages and we'd know that the last list contained all the Independents as well as the Spirits and we could have them all PM someone to prove themselves while the Wildmen work their way through that list and we lynch the others, thus we'd catch the Spirits. 

5 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

Outing the independents is not the worst consequence, as Independents need to out themselves in order to use one of their abilities(creating PMs). The chances are fairly high that the Independents will eventually end up sending a message to a Spirit or a converted Spirit.  

Right, I agree, it was just one people had brought up.

2 minutes ago, BrightnessRadiant said:

@Mailliw73

But my point is then it would also narrow down the field for the Spirits when it comes to village roles. Because if I was a Spirit then one of my main goals would be to find the gang leaders quicker since one of their win cons is killing or converting all the gang leaders. 

Because if the Independents are revealed to be completely independent then it narrows down the player possibilities for who they are.

I can see your point about it narrowing down our chances tho. If the Spirits aren't in a second gang yet it would help to know that before they start converting. I just feel like information could be over shared.

Alright, I'm still confused. Maybe we just aren't explaining our POVs very well. let me know if the list at the beginnning of this post helps at all. I still am confused on how the Independents being known reveals anything to the Spirits that they wouldn't already know?

2 minutes ago, Alvron said:

Personally, I'm of the opinion that only one of the Spirits starts in a gang.  Galladon would be my pick for lore reasons.  But let's look at this logically,
If both Spirits start as Independent, then we are handing them a larger amount of information.  They will know exactly who to target to get a spy in each faction.
If only one Spirit is in a faction, then we still give them a rather large amount of information.
If both Spirits start in another faction, then little information is given away by revealing who is Independent but they will still learn who to target to get into the third group rather than having to guess.
Best case is that both Galladon and Raoden start as Independents and we narrow down the suspect list considerably,but I still don't see the information we get outweighing what we give them.  On top of that, Spirits can convert anyone which means that even if we lynch both of them in two cycles, we will still have two others hidden elsewhere.

 This makes a good point. Though, to the last point, we have Wildmen who could kill the one we don't lynch, thus making it only one that we'd have hidden. Obviously, that's not good, but since when have these games been easy? I am grateful for all who have shared their thoughts on this idea, even if Sart is the only one who has agreed with me. Part of the reason to bring up this was to start conversation so that we can get better reads on C1.

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3 minutes ago, Mailliw73 said:

This would mean that the Spirits aren't in a gang, because of the original percentages and we'd know that the last list contained all the Independents as well as the Spirits and we could have them all PM someone to prove themselves while the Wildmen work their way through that list and we lynch the others, thus we'd catch the Spirits. 

I disagree.  It's been brought up that an Independent might also be in another gang.  While I don't think that is the case as that would mean they aren't Independent, it does throw off your list.  If we have 6 Independents but one is in another gang, but a Spirit is listed as Independent, we learn nothing.  Yes having them set up PMs would reveal them which is good.  But, we also need to think of the fun factor.  Making them set up PMs removes their choice as they will likely be lynched for it which isn't very fun (most of the time).  Not to mention we would be getting very close to Mayoring which is something that I am very much against.

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@Mailliw73 yeah sorry, I'm trying to figure out how to get my point across and it isn't working for me :lol:

I'm saying that when you're an elim sometimes you make a list like this:

Player Roles

Brightness - Independent

Mail - Baron's gang (possible sub role or gang leader)

And so on...

until the roles are filled in and narrowing down that information for the elims is risky because it infinitely improves their planning and narrows down who is where and who their best targets are etc. Just in theory if the elims don't start out in other factions then we'll be helping them by giving them a bunch of info they don't have yet.

Not sure if that explains it better and if not sorry lol. (Btw hypothetical roles not role claiming anything in this post haha)

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I guess I should post something...

While I'm normally for aggressive plans, I do think revealing factions this early would probably do more harm than good. I think I agree with Alv that only one of the elims probably started in a gang, especially since Galladon's ability is to help them figure out who is in which faction. If they started off in 2 factions, they could fill things in pretty fast with that ability and their conversions. I'm glad this was brought forward for discussion though, since I think we can look over the responses and hopefully glean some information on players alignments. I'll look over things tomorrow to see if I can catch anything fishy.

I don't really have many more thoughts. I got clarification from Joe that we do need a 2 vote minimum to lynch someone, which means Raoden can't just kill someone with his vote manipulation if we decide not to put any votes down.

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From the percentages, out of 22 players, we have 5.5 Barons, 4.4 Children, 7.33 Wildmen, 7.33 Independents, and 2 Spirits. Even with these all rounded down, this adds up to five more people than are actually playing.  Putting both Spirits in one of the four gangs would bring the excess down to three. Making a player multi-factional decreases this number by two, so let's say the Barons have six players to make an even number, meaning two players would then be multi-factional(or three if the Spirits aren't in any gangs). Five Children and five Barons is the likely alternative; I can't see either 7.33 being rounded up to eight. Assuming BR and Alvron are right about Independents not being in any of the other three village factions, and that the Spirits are in one of the four gangs, the player list might look something like this, with multi-factionals in italics.

List One: Crimsn, Fifth, Xino, Kidpen, BR, Devotary. List Two: Crimsn, Elandera, Steel, Walin, CadCom, Mailliw, Itiah. List Three: Elandera, Alvron, Straw, Drought. A five and five scenario would temporarily obscure the factional identity of lists one and two to those who aren't in either faction. We wouldn't get the Independent list, but just knowing that there were seven players not in any other lists we would learn Independent/Spirit: Lopen, Shqueeves, Meta, Elephant, Coop, Sart, Bard. If five or six players weren't included in any faction lists, we would learn that there are two or one multi-factional Independents, who would be outed once they sent out a PM. What these lists don't provide(so far as I can tell, anyway) is any indication of where the two Spirit members are located, unless the Spirits aren't in any of the four factions, in which case the identities of the Spirits could be determined by having the Independents send out PMs. Unless people have good reason to believe that the Spirits aren't in any of the four factions, I don't believe creating faction lists would be productive.

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Current Vote Count:
A Joe in the Bush(1): Coop


Time left in the cycle:
bla_1537772399.png

Rule Clarifications:


Are there actually Jeskeri in the Game?
There are no Jeskeri. Hard confirming that

How many actions can a player use each Turn?
1.

If a player starts in 2 factions, which one determines their starting health?
Whichever faction has the higher starting health.

Can I make my mantra before my death?
Yes

What is the minimum number of votes required for a lynch?
2 votes.

Does Raoden's power cancel his vote?
No.

If the Spirits are all killed, does the faction with the largest number take over Elantris and rule with an iron fist?
Is there a way to restore Elantris?
Are there any in game events that can happen like when Sarene enters Elantris and brings food?  If so, what kind of events/effects will there be?
Is there positive benefits for attacking the other factions?
PAFO

Why aren't you Fun anymore?
PAFO


 

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Don't worry, I'm still fun guys.

Edited by Darkness_
At least I think so
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5 hours ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

What these lists don't provide(so far as I can tell, anyway) is any indication of where the two Spirit members are located, unless the Spirits aren't in any of the four factions, in which case the identities of the Spirits could be determined by having the Independents send out PMs. Unless people have good reason to believe that the Spirits aren't in any of the four factions, I don't believe creating faction lists would be productive.

Exactly. At any rate, I’d be very surprised if the Spirits didn’t start with one person as an Independent, and one in a “major” gang (likely Aanden’s or Karata’s). If they didn’t, such a list-revealing strategy would immediately out them, which I think Joe is smart enough to have seen coming, and avoided. 

Also, regarding affiliated Independents, having been contacted by one in my faction last night, I can confirm that they exist. This leads me to believe that each major gang probably has one in them somewhere, and that our multi-factioners are likely the two Spirits, and three affiliated Independents, one in each faction, and perhaps one faction having two of them if there’s a sixth multi-faction player. I can hardly imagine that a player would be in two of [Karata, Aanden, Shaor] strictly because of thematic reasons, but I’ve been proven wrong before. 

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35 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

“major” gang (likely Aanden’s or Karata’s).

Wow rascist

35 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

I can confirm that they exist. 

 

Wow

Edited by Darkness_
Great way to use my 5,000th post...
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Time is running out in the cycle, so how about we get the real lynch discussion started? I'm finding Mailliw's push for listing everyone in each group to be a bit odd, but I also don't want to lynch him right to start on his first game back. Nothing else has really stuck out yet, so Steeldancer until I think of something better or someone else presents a better argument. @Steeldancer

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4 minutes ago, Elandera said:

Time is running out in the cycle, so how about we get the real lynch discussion started? I'm finding Mailliw's push for listing everyone in each group to be a bit odd, but I also don't want to lynch him right to start on his first game back. Nothing else has really stuck out yet, so Steeldancer until I think of something better or someone else presents a better argument. @Steeldancer

I'm just curious, but why do you think we should have a lynch today? I'm not really for or against it right now, just wondering what your take on it is. 

I have no problem not listing factions, I just had the idea and wanted to start a useful discussion because I've been a part of some C1s where nothing really got accomplished.

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