A Joe in the Bush

Mid-Range Game 31: Spiritual Warfare

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How does a team say what they will do/ who they will target with their ability?

 

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31 minutes ago, ElephantEarwax said:

 

I can't say for sure in this game, but the standard for teams is to choose one person to send the request through PM on behalf of the team.

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First thing I want to bring up is DO NOT reveal your role here or in your gang's doc if you are one of the gangs leaders because you are a primary target for the Spirits to convert or kill and we only have 3 of you for them to find to get a quick win con for them amd don't forget that what you say in your gang doc can end up being known to the Spirits because of the conversion mechanic so be careful and don't trust anyone too much even if they've proved themselves in previous cycles. I've never played a conversion game iirc and this just ups my anti-trust levels more.

Next I'd like to remind everyone that this is NOT a faction game so we need to work together as much as possible. (Which may prove difficult with how much I just stated not to trust anyone but yeah) :P Time is of the essence though because the more cycles there are the more conversions they make.

Also, there's vote manipulation and only for the Spirits so make sure we don't have any ties when in doubt and be aware that they might use it to make someone look suspicious or to save someone but think it through carefully if there's vote manipulation and don't just jump on the person who gets saved.

Shaor is pretty well protected by her gang but still don't reveal yourself because then all the Spirits have to do to take you out or convert you is to pick off your gang one at a time. At least it gives us a few cycles before they can get to you even if they do find out your identity.

Karata's gang is super important to finding out who's been converted and who hasn't and also keeping the gang leaders out of the lynch and people from being converted so PLEASE be active and use those abilities because we need them. If you suspect you know who a gang leader is then you should try to keep them out of the lynch with your ability or keep them from being converted. I.E. if Shaor gets targeted and one of her gang members ends up Heod in her place then her identify will be revealed the next cycle so you could start protecting her with your abilities since the Spirits would probably proceed to pick off her gang and wouldn't even have to know their identities because they could just repeatedly target Shaor if I'm understanding the rules right because her gang members will automatically take the hits for her. And I'm guessing that includes conversions.

Then there's Independents. Only they can start PMs but that immediately reveals them as a non-Spirit if they made a pm on the first cycle since there have been no conversions yet. However past the first cycle, Independents can longer be fully trusted since they may have been targeted by a conversion. I'm not sure what good the PMs do at this point seeing how we can't really trust anyone who might have been converted unless we're counting on the Spirit's to save their conversions for those who aren't Independents because they can narrow down the list of possible gang leaders further. So I'm not sure if you should even make PMs since that narrows their search. 

I'm not sure how helpful any of this is but I'm just trying to wrap my head around the rules so here's my rumblings. And don't trust anyone. :P

Edit: oh I forgot the other gang. Baron's gang should try to use their healing abilities to heal the gang leaders if possible if they think they know who they are or if they've been revealed. Also, Shaor's gang would be good targets I think for healing because that protects Shaor as well. And that gang as a role block so that's important when it comes to conversions as well. So make sure to stay active and use those abilities! 

Edited by BrightnessRadiant
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1 hour ago, ElephantEarwax said:

 

For the Children, Barons, and Spirits, a player must send the GM's a PM saying they wish to use their action to use the faction ability.

Edited by A Joe in the Bush
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I've had an idea that I'd like to run past the Elantrians as a whole. We know from the rules that players can be in multiple factions. From my math, that means around 3 players will be for sure in multiple. I'd personally like to know if the Spirits have a chance of being in my faction. My idea is that a member of each faction reveals the list of people in their faction(without sharing which faction it is), so that we have a better idea of if the Spirits are already in our docs or not. What thoughts do you have?

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Well, for starters, I'm not sure how exactly that would work, since we don't know who the Spirits are. Also, if I read the rules correctly, the Spirits definitely do have a chance of being in your faction, but until we have identities there's not much else we can do. Also, I would be down for playing your son @Young Bard 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Mailliw73 said:

I've had an idea that I'd like to run past the Elantrians as a whole. We know from the rules that players can be in multiple factions. From my math, that means around 3 players will be for sure in multiple. I'd personally like to know if the Spirits have a chance of being in my faction. My idea is that a member of each faction reveals the list of people in their faction(without sharing which faction it is), so that we have a better idea of if the Spirits are already in our docs or not. What thoughts do you have?

Main issue that I see here are independents, who aren’t part of any faction, and thus won’t make it into any of the lists, immediately outing them along with the Spirits. From my understanding, if we do this, we could instantly narrow Raoden and Galladon to about five or six people (I don’t think they start in any of the factions, do they?) but that wouldn’t be very fun for the independents that we lynch, and also isn’t the way I’d like to go about solving this game. If it turns out the starting Spirits can be in regular docs, this would fall apart even more, though we may gain a clearer picture of who’s doubled up—but so would the Elims. 

I don’t really like that idea as a whole, mainly because I could totally see the Spirits converting one person from each faction to get intel from all of them, and also because again, it somewhat unfairly outs the independents. Sharing information that the Elims don’t have probably isn’t a great idea so early in the game. 

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Where in the rules does it say independents aren't on any teams? I took it to mean that independents don't have their own doc, but could still be in other factions because of multi-faction. Also, this would out the people in multi-faction, which isn't the best idea IMO because then Spirit wouldn't even need to pull one from each, just one that is in 2 and one that is in the other one

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Just now, Fifth Scholar said:

Main issue that I see here are independents, who aren’t part of any faction, and thus won’t make it into any of the lists, immediately outing them along with the Spirits. From my understanding, if we do this, we could instantly narrow Raoden and Galladon to about five or six people (I don’t think they start in any of the factions, do they?) but that wouldn’t be very fun for the independents that we lynch, and also isn’t the way I’d like to go about solving this game. If it turns out the starting Spirits can be in regular docs, this would fall apart even more, though we may gain a clearer picture of who’s doubled up—but so would the Elims. 

I don’t really like that idea as a whole, mainly because I could totally see the Spirits converting one person from each faction to get intel from all of them, and also because again, it somewhat unfairly outs the independents. Sharing information that the Elims don’t have probably isn’t a great idea so early in the game. 

Right, and Independents could possibly be in faction docs as well, meaning they wouldn't all be outed. But yes, I agree, most Independents would be made known, but so would everyone else's faction. Your question about Raoden and Galladon starting in factions is exactly why I proposed this idea. We aren't sure and Joe won't clarify :P So this is one method to find out if the Spirits have already infiltrated our factions or not. If the Spirits started in docs, then they already have the information of who is in each faction and this reveal wouldn't do anything to them. But it would help us see if they are already in our factions or not.

That said, I'm open to other ways of finding out if the Spirits are in our factions. 

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If Coop is interpreting the rules correctly, and the Spirits are mixed in with the other factions, then openly placing faction lists just increases their chances of picking Shaor, Karata or Aanden.

That said, if Coop isn't interpreting the rules correctly, then we could probably win this turn by having the Independants use their ability to contact people.

So, @Coop772, what in the rules makes you believe what you do

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1 minute ago, Shqueeves said:

If Coop is interpreting the rules correctly, and the Spirits are mixed in with the other factions, then openly placing faction lists just increases their chances of picking Shaor, Karata or Aanden.

How so?

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And how could we win this turn if the independents start contacting people? 

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Here's how I view it. Shaor, Karata, and Aanden wouldn't start out in the same groups. If we then cut all the players into chunks, with one guaranteed faction leader in each, the Spirits could guarantee getting at least one leader by focusing on one chunk, rather than relying on observed methods to predict who is in which faction.

If the Spirits aren't in any other faction to begin with, then having the Independants contact people would prove their identity, and with the faction lists we could identify the Spirits. Using the lynch and Shaor's Wildmen we could kill Raoden and Galladon this turn. Saying it like that makes me realize that we wouldn't win turn one, but we would remove both of their sub roles, which is a useful step.

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4 minutes ago, Shqueeves said:

Here's how I view it. Shaor, Karata, and Aanden wouldn't start out in the same groups. If we then cut all the players into chunks, with one guaranteed faction leader in each, the Spirits could guarantee getting at least one leader by focusing on one chunk, rather than relying on observed methods to predict who is in which faction.

Yes, but if they're already in other factions, they already have a list of at least one faction, if not two, and can quickly figure out the others. So they'd already have us split into chunks where we currently don't know if that's the case or not.

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I now understand what Shqueeves is saying, but I am of the opinion that it is too much info too early on. 

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Hi guys reporting in, I'll be back later once I get all my laundry/homework done. 

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Also, something that concerns me greatly is the potential for secret rules. I am interested in people's thoughts on this, and for now I will vote A Joe in the Bush to see what happens

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1 minute ago, Mailliw73 said:

Yes, but if they're already in other factions, they already have a list of at least one faction, if not two, and can quickly figure out the others. So they'd already have us split into chunks where we currently don't know if that's the case or not.

At max they know two chunks right now. If we can waste their conversions (the only get between 15%-30% which is (22*.15) 3.4 to 6.6 people) getting less useful players to figure out the other chunks that'd be beneficial

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There are five factions: Spirit Baron Wildmen Children Independent. Worst case scenario is that Spirit has members in two other factions that are not the Independent. This means that they have 3 out of 4 factions with docs infiltrated, and from there could, with the help of Independents identifying themselves, be able to ascertain the faction of every player. I still stand against this idea.

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Did we break the game on Day 1? According to the rules, the Spirits only have two players to start with. We reveal who is in each faction, and the independents make a PM with everyone. If the Spirits didn't start in a faction, they are outed, so we lynch one and sic the madmen on the other. Perhaps they can get one conversion off, depending on order of actions. Either way, we deal a major blow to them.

The main catch is, did the Spirits start in another faction to start with? Well, if one villager was in two factions, then it's certainly possible. If you are in two factions, just reveal it straight away, so we can stop this idea. Like Mailliw says, if they have already infiltrated us, we wouldn't lose that much. They would just separate who the Independents are from the third faction. I don't see much risk in doing this.

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2 minutes ago, Sart said:

The main catch is, did the Spirits start in another faction to start with? Well, if one villager was in two factions, then it's certainly possible. If you are in two factions, just reveal it straight away, so we can stop this idea. Like Mailliw says, if they have already infiltrated us, we wouldn't lose that much. They would just separate who the Independents are from the third faction. I don't see much risk in doing this.

There is likely one player who is in 2 factions who is Village(because of the percentages Joe gave for each faction). But if there is anyone in 2 factions right now, they're almost guaranteed not to be the Spirits. 

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That is something I did not consider in my worst case scenario, that in order for that to be the case each member of Spirit would have to be multi-faction, and would have to be a different multi-faction from the other. If, however, the Spirits aren't multi-faction, this will out all of the (non multi-faction) Independents. And I still just have a bad feeling about this idea in general.

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1 minute ago, Coop772 said:

That is something I did not consider in my worst case scenario, that in order for that to be the case each member of Spirit would have to be multi-faction, and would have to be a different multi-faction from the other. If, however, the Spirits aren't multi-faction, this will out all of the (non multi-faction) Independents. And I still just have a bad feeling about this idea in general.

What's the problem with this outing the Independents when it'll also be outing the Barons, Wildmen, and Children? It won't be giving the names of each of those factions immediately, but it will shortly after, when one of the people on the lists dies. So I don't see why the Independents lose such an advantage from this.

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My problem with outing the Independents is that it narrows down the list for the Spirits to find the gang leaders by them knowing who *isn't* a gang leader.  

Plus, I thought the Independents were completely independent. They aren't in any docs right? Because the docs are only for gangs and as their roles imply they are completely independent?

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Just now, BrightnessRadiant said:

My problem with outing the Independents is that it narrows down the list for the Spirits to find the gang leaders by them knowing who *isn't* a gang leader.  

Plus, I thought the Independents were completely independent. They aren't in any docs right? Because the docs are only for gangs and as their roles imply they are completely independent?

That statement assumes the Spirits aren't already in a gang, which is what my proposed idea will find out for us. 

No, that hasn't been confirmed. They are confirmed not to have an "Independent" doc. Meaning, the Independents don't all know each other and have a doc together. Whether or not its possible for an Independent to also be in one of the other docs is a PAFO from Joe.

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