Madness of the Heralds

[Blightsong]

Introduction

Going back all the way to the WoK I've been theorizing as to why Szeth hears the screams that he does. It never seemed like too big a mystery but it was still interesting. When we finally got a straight answer in Oatbringer I was initially satisfied until I thought about it a little bit more. Here's the explanation Nale gives:

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Nin had not healed Szeth’s madness. He’d called it an effect of Szeth’s connection to the powers, and said that he was hearing trembles from the Spiritual Realm. Memories of the dead he’d killed.

It made sense and was along the lines of what I'd been thinking for awhile. The only thing different about Szeth was that he was using the Honorblade, so it just made sense until I realized we saw the exact same thing happen to Dalinar and Eshonai, people who had never wielded one.

The Madness of the Heralds

So when trying to understand why these characters are all experiencing the same phenomenon I decided to look into all accounts we had of the different Herald's Madness'. I came across this quote from Nale:

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“I used to be able to feel, Szeth-son-Neturo. I used to have compassion. I can remember those days, before…” “The torture?” Szeth asked. He nodded. “Centuries spent on Braize—the place you call Damnation—stole my ability to feel. We each cope somehow, but only Ishar survived with his mind intact.

That last part stood out to me in particular, but I didn't really have an idea of what could have set Ishar apart from the rest until I remembered a particularly relevant part from a Dalinar flashback. When Dalinar turns to drinking to push away the voices he now hears he befriends all of our favorite mad beggar, Jezrien, who seems to be rambling through their conversation incoherently. He has this to say at one point:

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“I like you,” Ahu said to Dalinar. “I like the pain in your eyes. Friendly pain. Companionable pain.” “Thanks.” “Which one got to you, little child?” Ahu asked. “The Black Fisher? The Spawning Mother, the Faceless? Moelach is close. I can hear his wheezing, his scratching, his scraping at time like a rat breaking through walls.” “I have no idea what you’re talking about.” “Madness,” Ahu said, then giggled.

When I first read this line I thought it was just Jezrien being able to see some effect from Nergaoul on Dalinar through some strange Herald-sense but the line I emphasized gave me pause this time. He implies that he can legitimately relate to what he sees in Dalinar and quite heavy handedly says that Unmade are the cause, then says that he is able to even sense them, implying a Connection. Linking this idea of Heralds and the Unmade I remembered this WoB:

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XS-Terrain
Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson
Eh... Kind of.

XS-Terrain
Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out?

Brandon Sanderson
Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there.

I'd always assumed that the Herald's madness was mostly because of the torture they endured, but perhaps that torture wasn't purely physical, as surely Ishar wouldn't have been able to mentally withstand it better than Taln. Now, I don't mean to imply that Ishar isn't mad, he obviously is, but there must be some reason both Nale and Ash believe him to be sane. The below deathrattle from Taln's perspective made me even more certain that the torture they endured involved more then just pain, and that they possibly were each assigned an Unmade, leading the rest of the Heralds to believe that Ishar wasn't going through what the rest of them were:

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"The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me."

I doubt the other Heralds not being on Braize would've ramped up the physical torture.

The Unmade

So what could the Unmade have been doing to the Heralds as well as Dalinar and Eshonai? Well this specific WoB about how Odium uses the Unmade on Roshar stood out to me:

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zas678
Can Odium influence people the same way that Ruin can?

Brandon Sanderson
Well, you see, the kandra and the koloss have a "hole" in them that allows Ruin to come in and take over. The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that's what allows Odium to take control of them.

zas678
No, I'm talking about how Ruin was able to push people, place things in their minds, stuff like that. Can Odium do the same thing?

Brandon Sanderson
Well, Odium wasn't around when those people were created, so it's a little different for him than Ruin. So if he influences people in that way, it's through the Unmade.

Looking back, we've seen stuff exactly like how Ruin's influence is described from both Dalinar and Eshonai, two people pivotal to Odium's plans who he would have wanted influence over. Read the below quotes:

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The red mist was still there, coloring his vision. He would not sleep. It wouldn’t let him.

Dalinar left the table. He should hurt more. Shouldn’t he? Storms … he was so numb, he could barely feel anything, aside from that burning within, simmering deep down.

Notice the lack of emotion, similar to what Nale describes.

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It was difficult, for those old rhythms were so dull. Buried within those new rhythms, the names of which she intuited somehow, she could almost hear voices speaking to her. Advising her. If her people had received such guidance over the centuries, they surely would not have fallen so far.

This is almost exactly what we see in Mistborn. Looking back, I'm surprised i didn't find the lack of similar behavior in Venli in Oathbringer suspicious. Throughout the book she seems much more level headed then Eshonai did despite also holding a form of power and not being any further in the Oaths than Eshonai was for almost the entire time, and guess what? No screaming either.

Looking back we even see similar behavior with Szeth. Remember his behavior in WoR, when we know he was almost definitely being closely followed by Odium. These quotes are before his before his first attack on Dalinar:

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AH, the Stormfather said. SO IT WILL END. “What?” Kaladin shouted into the winds. “What changed? I feel—” HE COMES FOR YOU, LITTLE TRAITOR. I AM SORRY. Something rose before Kaladin. A second storm, one of red lightning, so enormous as to make the continent—the world itself—into nothing by comparison. Everything fell into its shadow. I AM SORRY, the Stormfather said. HE COMES.

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Darkness. Wind from the depths of nothingness, battering him. He felt as if he were standing above the void itself, Damnation, known as Braize in the old songs. Home to demons and monsters. He stepped out hesitantly, light from the still-open door spilling onto the wet balcony.

Sounds kinda like the presence Shallan felt in Uritheru when Re-Shephir was there. Now read this quote:

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Bright sunlight shone down to banish the shadows, which kept those screams to a minimum. The screamers deserved their deaths, of course. They should have killed Szeth. I hate you. I hate . . . everyone. Glories within, what a strange emotion.

Sounds exactly like the effect of an Unmade to me, almost exactly like what we see from someone getting rioted too un-subtly. The compounded effect of this paired with his bond to the Honorblade and subsequent stronger connection to the Unmade (showcased by Jezrien), could explain why Szeth's madness seems so much worse than Dalinar or Eshonai's.

Conclusion

In conclusion, it seems like the Heralds hold a direct Connection to the Unmade, and that their direct effect could cause the deaths of those you kill to haunt you. It makes sense, as we know that death is associated with powering the various Unmade's effects. I'm open to criticism on a lot of the details of this theory, especially the parts about Ishar, but overall I think Jezrien's quote is a pretty blatant hint towards the foundation of this theory holding some truth. Let me know what you guys think!

Edit: Find my follow up to this theory here.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Blightsong

[Oversleep]

I have two problems with your theory (which was very nicely put together):

The screams stormform Eshonai hears are her own. It is implied in OB that eventually she would have broken free.

And this WoB... huh. It's your WoB?

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Blightsong

Is anything magical going on with the screams Szeth hears?

Brandon Sanderson

Uhhh, Szeth's screams. Uhhm, I'm trying to decide how to answer this. It is not, see here's the thing. What we would call magical may not be considered magical in the Cosmere, but it depends on your definition of magic. Would Szeth if he were on our planet and have done those things would he hear those screams, probably not, but would someone else in the Cosmere who had gone through what he had gone through hear those screams, yes.

Blightsong

So it has to do with the spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yea, mhmm, yea.

source

For me it implies that someone who would have done similar things somewhere else, that person would also hear the screams. And other places in Cosmere do not have Unmade...

[+Child of Hodor]

Convincing theory! The screams in people's heads seem way too real for it to only be a guilty conscience. This epigraph from WoK ch. 45 always stuck out:

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45	"Yelig-nar, called Blightwind, was one that could speak like a man, though often his voice was accompanied by the wails of those he consumed."

 

For a while I thought an Unmade was following Szeth around consuming his victims and that's why Szeth hears them. Doesn't seem to be Yelig-nar, his consumption has been shown to be more direct and literal, but more than one Unmade may be able to feast on the dead.  The Aimian cook in the OB interlude is worried about "those" that can exploit the souls of the dead: 

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 “I cannot speak,” the cook said, “even to sate a dying demand. There are those who could pull secrets from your soul, and the cost would be the ends of worlds.

We also know Moelach grants visions to people just as they are dying which is close enough for me to count it as manipulating the spirits of the dead:

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“Moelach was said to grant visions of the future at different times—but most commonly at the transition point between realms. When a soul was nearing the Tranquiline Halls. ”

—From Hessi's Mythica, page 144^[14]

 

There is one you will watch. Though all of them have some relevance to precognition, Moelach is one of the most powerful in this regard. His touch seeps into a soul as it breaks apart from the body, creating manifestations powered by the spark of death itself. ” — From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer: Paragraph 15^[1]

 

 

 

 

 

[Calderis]

I agree with @Oversleep. I don't think the screams are a strictly Rosharan phenomena.

I also don't think Ishar is actually better than the others. His "coping mechanism" is just something the others don't recognize. 

[Blightsong]

On 9/15/2018 at 6:33 AM, Oversleep said:

I have two problems with your theory (which was very nicely put together):

The screams stormform Eshonai hears are her own. It is implied in OB that eventually she would have broken free.

They weren't just her own, here's the relevant WoB:

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dragonssleepinfire

In Words of Radiance--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes?

dragonssleepinfire

After Eshonai bonds the stormspren, she starts hearing this screaming voice in her head.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes?

dragonssleepinfire

Is that her voice?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, um… It is a combination of her voice and something that is happening with Roshar, and at the end of the next book you'll get a big clue.

 

On 9/15/2018 at 6:33 AM, Oversleep said:

And this WoB... huh. It's your WoB?

For me it implies that someone who would have done similar things somewhere else, that person would also hear the screams. And other places in Cosmere do not have Unmade...

The wording here is so vague I'm positive he slipped out of my question; "but would someone else in the Cosmere who had gone through what he had gone through hear those screams, yes." This doesnt really say anything. How many people in the Cosmere have gone through what Szeth has gone through? He's done and been a part of some very crazy unusual thing.

 

On 9/15/2018 at 6:58 AM, Calderis said:

I also don't think Ishar is actually better than the others. His "coping mechanism" is just something the others don't recognize. 

Yup, I agree as I say in the post. He's not better but the rest think he's better. I was going off why I think they believe that.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Blightsong

[Stormwatcher]

Its a great theory and it makes a lot of sense. I love it!! Thank you for sharing

[Yata]

It's possible that be high invested+ deeply cracked allow you to interface with the Spiritual Realm in this way not too nice.

Of course in this, Dalinar case seems out of place, an oddity. But if we use the WoB about Kaladin be so skilled with the Spear as a child as result of the future skill he would develop thanks to Syl bond and the time indipentant spiritual nature.

It's possible Dalinar and the screams fit that too. Dalinat had connections to tje spiritual a not magic user has not, because he will bond the Stormfather and this affect his soul in a sort of retroactively way.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Yata

[Blightsong]

Found this quote today from when Szeth encounter Nergaoul, I think it lends to the theory a bit, or at least the part theorizing the Heralds have a Connection to the Unmade.

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This place nearest the red mist had fallen into darkness—the Windrunner had consumed all of the Stormlight in gemstones on the ground. He fought against several enemies nearby. Shadowed darkness. Whispered words. Szeth slowed to a halt. “What?” Lift asked. “Crazyface?” “I…” Szeth trembled, fearspren bubbling from the ground below. “I cannot go into that mist. I must be away from this place.” The whispers.

Especially considering this quote from Secret History:

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Spoiler

He fell into step beside Spook, who practically stumbled along. One foot after the other, barely moving. “Keep moving,” Kelsier encouraged. He could feel this man’s pain, his anguish and confusion. His faith battered. And somehow, through Connection, Kelsier could talk to him as he’d not been able to do to others.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2018 by Blightsong

[ScavellTane]

If its correct that the Unmade are the Dawnshards. It seems that, base on this theory, Adonalsium was somehow experimenting on death.

[Blightsong]

1 hour ago, ScavellTane said:

If its correct that the Unmade are the Dawnshards. It seems that, base on this theory, Adonalsium was somehow experimenting on death.

I'm cautious to prescribe any effects we see from the Unmade to their theorized previous nature. We dont know what their corruption could have changed.

[ScavellTane]

Yea, it just fits in with the concept of The One in my head.

[Solarserpent]

I am more interested when the madness got worse for them. If perhaps they were able handle the damage while Honor was alive or if their madness worsened as Tal'n started to break. Do we know when their madnesses first manifested?

[ScavellTane]

Likely it only began after Honor 'died'. Their 'immortality' seems to be tied to Honor.

Edited September 16, 2018 by ScavellTane

[Calderis]

I disagree. In the prelude, Kalak already seems unstable. 

Edited September 16, 2018 by Calderis

[ScavellTane]

Let me rephrase that. I don't think they continued to deteriorate after the decision at the Last Desolation. But it began again after Honors 'death'.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, ScavellTane said:

Let me rephrase that. I don't think they continued to deteriorate after the decision at the Last Desolation. But it began again after Honors 'death'.

Kalak tells Nale in WoR prologue “We weren’t supposed to get worse. Am I getting worse? I think I’m getting worse.”

He may be referring to them already being crazy from the torture and they didn’t go back for more torture. Yet they seem to be getting crazier.

The loss of their direct connection to honor may be part of it. In OB Taln snaps out of his comatose state around the time Dalinar briefly restores Honor’s perpendicularity. We’d never seen him that lucid before. Then he goes back into his comatose state. 

[Blightsong]

15 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

The loss of their direct connection to honor may be part of it. In OB Taln snaps out of his comatose state around the time Dalinar briefly restores Honor’s perpendicularity. We’d never seen him that lucid before. Then he goes back into his comatose state. 

We've seen him regain lucidity before (when he sees Shallan Lightweave) and while it wasnt as full a restoration as in OB the fact that it didn't happen during any kind of event related to Honor, or his perpendicularity (like a highstorm), leads me to believe that it had more to do with him seeing Ash.

[+Child of Hodor]

6 hours ago, Blightsong said:

We've seen him regain lucidity before (when he sees Shallan Lightweave) and while it wasnt as full a restoration as in OB the fact that it didn't happen during any kind of event related to Honor, or his perpendicularity (like a highstorm), leads me to believe that it had more to do with him seeing Ash.

Ah, that's true. Could be the Stormlight she used in front of him. I forgot that Shallan belongs to Ash's order, may have jogged his memory. 

[Subvisual Haze]

I think the strongest hint to me that the Unmade and the spiritual screams are linked is demonstrated by Dalinar.  Dalinar had previously heard the screams in his mind after the death of Evi and Rathalas and it was driving him mad.  When Cultivation gave him his blessing and curse (essentially sealing off the part of his soul that remembered Evi and his violent past, along with his past connection with The Thrill) both the screams in his mind as well as his susceptibility to The Thrill vanished completely for several years.  Both the screams and the Thrill returned to Dalinar when his Cultivation memory block and soul band aid faded, allowing the Unmade access to his soul once again.

Personally I think the most likely Unmade to cause this effect is Dai'Gonarthis, aka The Black Fisher.  Partly because we know almost nothing about him, but his few references have been extremely interesting:

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"Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!" - Death Rattle from WoK Ch 67 epigraph

also our scene with Ahu/Jezrien:

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[Dalinar] "How are the voices?"

[Ahu] "Soft, today. They chant about ripping me apart. Eating my flesh. Drinking my blood."

...

[Ahu] "Nice. Not bad at all little child.  What of your noises?"

...

“Which one got to you, little child?” Ahu asked. “The Black Fisher? The Spawning Mother, the Faceless? Moelach is close. I can hear his wheezing, his scratching, his scraping at time like a rat breaking through walls.” 

We have a rough idea what the other mentioned Unmade do.  I think it's interesting that Ahu mentions The Black Fisher first though.  Perhaps Dai-Gonarthis uses the screams from the spiritual realm to psychologically torture humans with guilt, and then tempts them with the narcotic relief of "the void", offering an escape from their screams and suffering via emotional emptiness and apathy.  We've seen Szeth drift in this direction before, emotionally numbing himself to escape the pain of the guilt.  We see Moash doing a similar thing now, retreating into the emotional void to avoid thinking about the pain he saw in Kaladin's eyes.  I think both connect well with that earlier Death Rattle of "Let me no longer hurt".

[Yata]

@Subvisual Haze Cultivation didn't sealed in any way his Connection to Nergaoul, He still felt the Thrill for the whole time after that. He simply tried to avoid that and his bond with the Stormfather allowed him another degree of protection to mostly seal off the Thrill for him under normal circumstances.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

@Subvisual Haze Cultivation didn't sealed in any way his Connection to Nergaoul, He still felt the Thrill for the whole time after that. He simply tried to avoid that and his bond with the Stormfather allowed him another degree of protection to mostly seal off the Thrill for him under normal circumstances.

Yeah he definitely feels the Thrill in Way of Kings during the plateau assault where he saved Sadeas. But he will then feel sick right after looking at all the corpses which is the proto-radiant bond kicking in. I don't have the book in front of me, but here is a summary of the chapter https://www.tor.com/2014/02/06/the-way-of-kings-reread-chapter-56/

[whattheHoid]

Interesting theory! I always took the screams Szeth hears and that Dalinar hears to be 1. Because of his violent past and 2. Because they are Invested. With Dalinar, since he is a Bondsmith, it made sense to me as out of all the Orders of Radiants, that Order would have the strongest/easiest time Connecting to the Spiritual Realm. Since this happens all throughout the cosmere, I think the stronger your Connection is the easier it is to hear the Spiritual Realm, perhaps the Cognitive Realm as well too. I wouldn't be surprised if the Unmade have "corrupted" that Connection, at least specifically on Roshar. Perhaps they can see into the person's character and weaknesses and mentally torture them to the point where their Spiritual Webs crack even further, allowing their influence on person to become stronger. Maybe weakening them towards not only their influence, but Odium's as well? 

[Blightsong]

I got a WoB at the Chicago signing for Skyward that is very relevant to this theory so I thought I'd bump it.

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Blightsong [PENDING REVIEW]

People tend to hear a lot of voices on Roshar in their heads. And I've noticed that a lot of people either have been confirmed to be in contact with Unmade or show a lot of signs of that. Is there a correlation there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

I definitely think this gives my ideas more weight. While it doesnt touch on my conjectures about the Heralds, I believe this shores up the foundation of evidence that those were built on. I'll admit that there is an argument to be made that my wording was too loose and that one could still believe the counter arguments proposed in this thread, but I think this is as close to an outright answer on the topic as I could have gotten without baiting a RAFO.

What do you guys think? Does this WoB sway you to think I'm right when coupled with the evidence I presented in the OP, or do you guys hold other beliefs on these voices? Feel free to voice your opinion, poke holes, or add ideas since the last round of discussion on this thread!

Edited January 7, 2019 by Blightsong

[Wyndle88]

I don't know if this had been mentioned before. In chapter 1 of WoTK the 9 remaining Heralds sacrificed Taln and the Oathpact. It has been 4500 years since. At present all heralds are mad. Even if one or more thinks one is sane (Ishar) they are all insane. I can't remember who says the actions of their betrayal that didn't go the way they thought. So maybe the Oathpact was still active and they are going mad because Taln was getting tortured in Damnation. Honorblades have pieces of soul of Honor. So maybe Heralds are connected to each other through spiritual realm via their respective Honorblades. Szeth practiced all ten surges using the 8 honorblades the Shin have. I'm not sure how he got this right among the Shin people. Maybe he is Royalty / winner of competition to see who gets trained ( he has nostalgia regarding Skybreaker tests) ....so he trains with Honorblades on all ten surges but with association started connecting to Spiritual realm thus started to hear voices of people he killed with the blades....

 

What do u guys think?

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Wyndle88
Amended

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Wyndle88 said:

he stopped hearing other voices and now only hears Nightblood

He still hears the voices.