Herald Spawn Points

[+Child of Hodor]

When a Herald returns from Braize at the start of each Desolation does each spawn at one of the Dawncities in one of the ten Silver Kingdoms? Taln is the Herald of War/ Herald of Soldiers and he reappears outside of Kholinar which is the capital of what used to be called Alethela. We don't know much about the Dawncities, but Kholinar is considered to be one.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Talenel

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Silver_Kingdoms

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Dawncity

 https://coppermind.net/wiki/Kholinar

Alethela was the Silver Kingdom of warriors or soldiers according to an ancient radiant in Ch. 19 of WoK.

Quote

 

Every pasture needs three things. Flocks to grow, herdsmen to tend, and watchers at the rim. We of Alethela are those watchers--the warriors who protect and fight. We maintain the terrible arts of killing, then pass them on to others when the Desolation comes. ”

— An unnamed female Radiant^[1]

 

 

[Calderis]

I believe so. I've never considered it a coincidence that the Herald of War manifested outside the gates of the Dawncity for the Silver Kingdom tasked with holding the Arts of War between desolations. 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Calderis

[Yezrien]

Does this mean each Dawncity is a Herald's spawncity?

I'm curious about the mechanism of this spawning. Are the Oathgates involved? Maybe Taln was supposed to spawn in the palace, but the Oathgate spren deliberately shunted him outside the city so he wouldn't fall into the hands of Aesudan and her Unmade friends.

[+Child of Hodor]

2 hours ago, Belzedar said:

Does this mean each Dawncity is a Herald's spawncity?

I'm curious about the mechanism of this spawning. Are the Oathgates involved? Maybe Taln was supposed to spawn in the palace, but the Oathgate spren deliberately shunted him outside the city so he wouldn't fall into the hands of Aesudan and her Unmade friends.

That's what I'm thinking. One goes to each city. I'm not sure about the method of transportation though. I can't rule them out, but don't think it is Oathgates,  The Dawncities were made by the Dawnsingers (likely) before humans arrived. In WoK Chapter 33 Kabsal shows how Kholinar and other cities have a layout that corresponds to musical notes. 

Quote

"Kabsal explains how he will convince Jasnah that the Almighty exists by showing that the vibrations of sand on a plate to different tones arrange the sand into the layouts of several of the most ancient cities"

 http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/The_Way_of_Kings:_Chapter_33

This implies they were "sung" into shape or otherwise magically created, there may be something fundamentally magical about (or under) those cities.The "plate" to the cities' "sand". I'm thinking each Herald is magically keyed into a Dawncity on some cognitive/spiritual level and they automatically are drawn to their respective city when they come back.  When they die on Roshar they automatically go to Braize, when they leave Braize perhaps they automatically go to a pre-determined point on Roshar. 

 

[Subvisual Haze]

I'm curious how the Oathgates work.  I believe Brandon has stated investiture is a special form of energy at be converted to different energy states including mass.  Is your body being molecularly disintegrated at Gate 1 into pure investiture and then your mind passes through the spiritual realm into a new clone body freshly created from pure investiture at Gate 2?

[ScavellTane]

Talns assertion that he was late 'this time', seems to imply that coming back to Roshar requires some degree of travel.

[Szmit]

10 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I'm curious how the Oathgates work.  I believe Brandon has stated investiture is a special form of energy at be converted to different energy states including mass.  Is your body being molecularly disintegrated at Gate 1 into pure investiture and then your mind passes through the spiritual realm into a new clone body freshly created from pure investiture at Gate 2?

I don't think there is any desintegratoin. Since human PHISICAL body can get into Cognitive Realm it should be also able to get into the Spiritual Realm. However since there is no time or space inside travel would more or less indtant just as we see with oathgates. 

Back to topic - Heralds are Cognitive Shadows so they probably use Cognitive Realm for transportation, and draw upon Honor's power to get a body when they are at the right place.

[Spoolofwhool]

22 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I'm curious how the Oathgates work.  I believe Brandon has stated investiture is a special form of energy at be converted to different energy states including mass.  Is your body being molecularly disintegrated at Gate 1 into pure investiture and then your mind passes through the spiritual realm into a new clone body freshly created from pure investiture at Gate 2?

11 hours ago, Szmit said:

I don't think there is any desintegratoin. Since human PHISICAL body can get into Cognitive Realm it should be also able to get into the Spiritual Realm. However since there is no time or space inside travel would more or less indtant just as we see with oathgates. 

Entering the Cognitive Realm is actually your physical body just breaking down into investiture, so yeah, the Oathgates probably work in a similar way where both your Physical and Cognitive selves are converting to investiture and shunted through the Spiritual Realm to instantaneously change your Realmatic location.

Spoiler

Quote

Bromo_Sapien

When somebody travels into the cognitive realm, what happens to their physical self? To their body? Like Elsecalling or through a Shardpool?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, well it depends on the way they’re doing it. The two ways you’ve mentioned transport the physical body. It’s actually creating a rift and slipping them through. But there are other ways that you kind of peek in, where you’re body’s saying it’s a little more astral projection-y in those cases.

Bromo_Sapien

So their physical self would also be in the cognitive realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Bromo_Sapien

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Which is weird.

Bromo_Sapien

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

But yes, um...

Bromo_Sapien

As opposed to somebody like Kelsier who died and no longer has a physical self.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, right. Or when Shallan is soulcasting and peeking in, and things like this. Like… Um… It can still be dangerous, because what’s happening is that little soul bubble there that’s manifesting into a version of your soul and then things can get at it in different ways and stuff. So... But yes, going in physically means you just pop between realms, and yeah, yeah…

Bromo_Sapien

And when they leave the cognitive realm their physical self just leaves the cognitive realm the same...

Brandon Sanderson

Yep, mhm, yep.

Bromo_Sapien

Perfect.

Brandon Sanderson

Basically you’re transferring into investiture and popping out of investiture, so...

source

 

Edited September 15, 2018 by Spoolofwhool

[Stormfather-in-Law]

It's simple. They have to spawn in different places otherwise they'd have to worry about campers.

[IllNsickly]

8 hours ago, Stormfather-in-Law said:

It's simple. They have to spawn in different places otherwise they'd have to worry about campers.

No one likes Campers.

[Subvisual Haze]

I actually think Taln appeared next to Kholinar merely because that was the current location of Honor's Perpendicularity.  A Herald spawning at the point of the greatest concentration of Honor's investiture seems to make logical sense to me due to the Oathpact being a thing of Honor.

We know Honor's Perpendicularity moves around, although we don't know exactly how or why.  It does not seem to be linked to the current location of the Highstorm.  Jasnah's reappearance at the end of WoR in the Unclaimed Hills was likely because Honor's Perpendicularity was located there at that time.  I personally suspect the location of Honor's Perpendicularity has something to do with the moons of Roshar, as Hoid's epilogue encounters with Taln+Jasnah both occurred during the night (Roshar's moons always pass overhead during the night), although this could just be a coincidence.

[Leyrann]

7 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I actually think Taln appeared next to Kholinar merely because that was the current location of Honor's Perpendicularity.  A Herald spawning at the point of the greatest concentration of Honor's investiture seems to make logical sense to me due to the Oathpact being a thing of Honor.

We know Honor's Perpendicularity moves around, although we don't know exactly how or why.  It does not seem to be linked to the current location of the Highstorm.  Jasnah's reappearance at the end of WoR in the Unclaimed Hills was likely because Honor's Perpendicularity was located there at that time.  I personally suspect the location of Honor's Perpendicularity has something to do with the moons of Roshar, as Hoid's epilogue encounters with Taln+Jasnah both occurred during the night (Roshar's moons always pass overhead during the night), although this could just be a coincidence.

Wouldn't that make the Perpendicularity predictable though? I thought it was considered unpredictable.

[supersmith]

9 hours ago, Leyrann said:

Wouldn't that make the Perpendicularity predictable though? I thought it was considered unpredictable.

maybe it's just a kind of predictable that hasn't been noticed, like how the shattered plains were secretly a pattern.  

[Leyrann]

26 minutes ago, supersmith said:

maybe it's just a kind of predictable that hasn't been noticed, like how the shattered plains were secretly a pattern.  

I assume the 17th Shard and Silverlight are better at figuring that kind of thing out than the Roshar natives.

[supersmith]

15 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

I assume the 17th Shard and Silverlight are better at figuring that kind of thing out than the Roshar natives.

Well ya thats fair, but It's still possible. 

[+Child of Hodor]

58 minutes ago, supersmith said:

maybe it's just a kind of predictable that hasn't been noticed, like how the shattered plains were secretly a pattern.  

 

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Paris signing (Oct. 22, 2016)
#1 

Narkac

Where does the Stormlight in highstorms come from? Is there like a "rain cycle", but for the Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormlight in the highstorm is transferred from the Spiritual realm through the Stormfather into the highstorm.

 

 

Quote

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)
#1 

Questioner

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s cognitive shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

 

The Highstorm is not the perpendicularity, the Stormfather is or is connected to it.

The Stormfather is/absorbed Honor/Tanavast's cognitive shadow (he's complicated/special  ).  He has connection to the remnants of Honor. The Stormfather rides the storms, but he is also running around looking for a Bondsmith to bond. Now that he has found one in Dalinar he is both with the Highstorm, but also with Dalinar. 

He's "a little more omnipresent". He's in multiple places at once and where the perpendicularity shows up in the cognitive realm may depend on where he is focusing his attention or mind. 

For instance, in WoK when Kaladin is left to be judged by the Stormfather, he seems to travel into a different realm briefly when the Stormfather looks at him. 

Quote

He hit hard. His vision flashed with sparkling lights that melded together and were followed by blackness. Not unconsciousness, blackness. Kaladin blinked. All was still. The storm was quiet, and everything was purely dark. I’m dead, he thought immediately. But why could he feel the wet stone roof beneath him? He shook his head, dripping rainwater down his face. There was no lightning, no wind, no rain. The silence was unnatural. He stumbled to his feet, managing to stand on the gently sloped roof. The stone was slick beneath his toes. He couldn’t feel his wounds. The pain just wasn’t there. He opened his mouth to call out into the darkness, but hesitated. That silence was not to be broken. The air itself seemed to weigh less, as did he. He almost felt as if he could float away.

In that darkness, an enormous face appeared just in front of his. A face of blackness, yet faintly traced in the dark. It was wide, the breadth of a massive thunderhead, and extended far to either side, yet it was somehow still visible to Kaladin. Inhuman. Smiling.. - Way of Kings Chapter 35

Then again Kaladin is pulled out of the Physical Realm when talking to the Stormfather in WoR Chapter 74:

Quote

“Syl,” Kaladin said, looking back to the face. The plateaus in front of him had vanished. It was just him and the face. He had to ask. It hurt him, but he had to. “What have I done to her?”

YOU HAVE KILLED HER. The voice shook everything. It was as if… as if the shaking of the plateau and his own body made the sounds for the voice.

The Highstorm that spans the entire continent North - South when it passes over. The perpendicularity location may depend on where within the storm the Stormfather is actually hanging out or is focusing his attention.  

Edited September 18, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[Leyrann]

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

The Highstorm is not the perpendicularity, the Stormfather is or is connected to it.

The Stormfather is/absorbed Honor/Tanavast's cognitive shadow (he's complicated/special  ).  He has connection to the remnants of Honor. The Stormfather rides the storms, but he is also running around looking for a Bondsmith to bond. Now that he has found one in Dalinar he is both with the Highstorm, but also with Dalinar. 

He's "a little more omnipresent". He's in multiple places at once and where the perpendicularity shows up in the cognitive realm may depend on where he is focusing his attention or mind. 

For instance, in WoK when Kaladin is left to be judged by the Stormfather, he seems to travel into a different realm briefly when the Stormfather looks at him. 

Then again Kaladin is pulled out of the Physical Realm when talking to the Stormfather in WoR Chapter 74:

The Highstorm that spans the entire continent North - South when it passes over. The perpendicularity location may depend on where within the storm the Stormfather is actually hanging out or is focusing his attention.  

But Jasnah did not return to the Physical Realm in the middle of a highstorm.

[+Child of Hodor]

5 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

But Jasnah did not return to the Physical Realm in the middle of a highstorm.

She created her own. Her Surge of Teleportation is geared to do that. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, perpendicularities can be created. You'd need a lot of Investiture, right? You'd need a ton of Investiture. But, basically what Jasnah does is create a little mini perpendicularity, right? And slips herself into the Cognitive Realm.

Questioner 2

So it's just a question of skill, not a question of--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. It's hard to pull off, but some of the powers are built to do it.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36-arcanum-unbounded-chicago-signing/#e1525

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[Subvisual Haze]

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

She created her own. Her Surge of Teleportation is geared to do that. 

 

Jasnah herself tells Shallan this isn't the case in OB.  Elsecalling into Shadesmar was easy, but returning required her to specifically seek out a transfer point where the two realms touch.  Which heavily hints that she sought out and found Honor's Perpendicularity.

Also the bonus chapter of Jasnah in Shadesmar strongly implies that seeking out Honor's Perpendicularity was her plan https://www.tor.com/2014/08/06/stormlight-archive-scene-after-words-of-radiance/

Quote

“Can I use this Light to return?” she asked him.

“Here?” He shook his head. “No. We must find a stable junction. Honor’s Perpendicularity, perhaps, though it is very distant. But Jasnah, the grinders will soon be!”

 

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Jasnah herself tells Shallan this isn't the case in OB.  Elsecalling into Shadesmar was easy, but returning required her to specifically seek out a transfer point where the two realms touch.  Which heavily hints that she sought out and found Honor's Perpendicularity.

Also the bonus chapter of Jasnah in Shadesmar strongly implies that seeking out Honor's Perpendicularity was her plan https://www.tor.com/2014/08/06/stormlight-archive-scene-after-words-of-radiance/

 

Yep, you're right I was thinking of when she left the ship. 

 

Quote

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)
#1 

Questioner

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s cognitive shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

I'm not saying the perpendicularity is within the Highstorm, always. The Stormfather isn't only within the Highstorm, as Brandon said he is more omnipresent than other radiant spren. My theory is the perpendicularity is connected to the Stormfather who is within the storms, but also other places at the same time and where the perpendicularity manifests may have to do with where he is focusing his attention at the moment. Sometimes within the highstorms and sometimes not.  

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

The Stormfather isn't only within the Highstorm, as Brandon said he is more omnipresent than other radiant spren.

As that says though, the Stormfather is more Connected and omnipresent specifically because he absorbed Tanavast's shadow, so that has never been true at any other time he's been bonded. 

The Stormfather has fulfilled his role as a part of the highstorm much longer than that. Stormlight in gemstones predates that arrival of Honor. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There was a point when the Heralds didn't need to draw Stormlight from gems, although the Stormlight-in-gems predates Honor's arrival.

There was a following conversation about this topic, about how a lot of the elements were there before Honor arrived, but he co-opted them. So, Stormlight were there, but there are big differences now.

Footnote: Unspecified question by Pagerunner.
source

So either the Stormfather is not Honor's perpendicularity, or he became so at the shattering and was altered. 

I personally believe the former. I don't think the perpendicularity is a sapient being. The highstorm is just a part of the way Roshar functions, and I believe that the Stormfather, in some form, was built with the world to serve that function. 

[+Child of Hodor]

 

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#6

Steeldancer [PENDING REVIEW]

Taln, did he give in to the torture around the events of Way of Kings?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I'm going to have to look at the...So he should have given in to events in the current version of the book right before...Let's just say around Way of Kings. I'm not going to canonize that, though. In the version of Way of Kingsthat I wrote in 2002, he'd been around for a few years before he showed up in the narrative. And in the current outline, I don't have that be the case, but I haven't written his book yet. So for canon, but it's a Word of Brandon canon, I'm going to say, he's only been around for a couple of months before he shows up at the city.

Well there goes most of this theory! There is a disconnect between the ? and answer, but Brandon seems to be answering when Taln got back to Roshar. 

He does go to make his announcement in Kholinar, but he was "back" for months before hand. Heralds probably do go to their assigned Dawncity, but it does not seem to be a thing where they "warp" or are otherwise magically pulled to one automatically. 

Edited September 21, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[Subvisual Haze]

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

 

Well there goes most of this theory! There is a disconnect between the ? and answer, but Brandon seems to be answering when Taln got back to Roshar. 

He does go to make his announcement in Kholinar, but he was "back" for months before hand. Heralds probably do go to their assigned Dawncity, but it does not seem to be a thing where they "warp" or are otherwise magically pulled to one automatically. 

Woah.  That's crazy if verified.  Maybe that's why the one Death Rattle was off when it said:

Quote

 

The love of men is a frigid thing, a mountain stream only three steps from the ice. We are his. Oh Stormfather... we are his. It is but a thousand days, and the Everstorm comes. ”

— Collected on Shashahes 1171, 31 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a darkeyed pregnant woman of middle years. The child did not survive.

Someone counted the dates and it was closer to 1300 days until the Everstorm.  Perhaps the 1000 days here refers to the time that Taln finally broke.

[Wreith]

30 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Woah.  That's crazy if verified.  Maybe that's why the one Death Rattle was off when it said:

Someone counted the dates and it was closer to 1300 days until the Everstorm.  Perhaps the 1000 days here refers to the time that Taln finally broke.

I'm not confident I'm correct, but
shashahes from the rattle is 6-5-1 
the everstorm arrived on 10-10-03

10-10-03 1173
06-05-01 1171

That ends up at 1102 days, right?

assuming "a couple" from the WoB means 2, that would match almost exactly