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There are dragons, they're just hiding.

Casta

By Casta
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Casta

Casta

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Why aren't there any dragons in your books?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There are dragons in my books, they're just hiding.

 
 

So I saw this WoB, and got excited, cause we know from 'Traveller' that dragons in cosmere can adapt human form. Does that mean we could have already seen dragon on-screen, just like the worldhopping kandra? Or was it only reference to Frost's letter? What do you think?

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Extesian

+Extesian

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Oh yes

Quote

Questioner

The second question is about dragons! One race, on Yolen, are dragons with the ability to shift. I'm positively sure that we haven't seen any dragons in dragon form around yet. How about in human form, and would it be possible to actually recognize a human dragon?

Brandon Sanderson

So, the question is, I haven't written the book yet, but one of the books I've talked about that is the origin of all of this is called Dragonsteel, and there are dragons in it! 'Cause, like I said, 'Why not? Why wouldn't you?' And she's asking about Dragonsteel. Have we seen dragons hidden among the characters in the books that we have seen. You have very likely seen -

Questioner

A letter.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you have seen a letter from a dragon. And you... there are some that are off-world, and so you might have seen them. I won't tell you for sure, but you would not recognize them.

source

 

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Quantus

Quantus

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The red eyes is apparently an indication of a comsere magic being coopted by another Shard, so I dont think it would be a standard feature of Dragons.  That being said, we know that Nalthis has both World-hoppers and real knowledge/myths of Dragons, so that would be my first guess.  Also there's at least one bloodline that has natural shapeshifting capabilities, if (currently) attributed to an entirely different oddity

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Spoolofwhool

Spoolofwhool

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3 hours ago, Draginon said:

Maybe the red eyed people from BOM are dragons? Dragons are immortal and can shapeshift, in other words they are Faceless Immortals.

I find that unlikely since then the dragon just killed itself in the explosion since they're just unaging, not truly immortal.

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Stormlightning

Stormlightning

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This made me excited too, because prior to think the only dragon we had any evidence of was Frost and I was wondering what the heck could have happened to all the rest of them. I've also been itching to ask Brandon if we have seen Dragonsteel (the metal) on-screen in the published stories, and now I'm very annoyed that I didn't ask that last weekend.

I was previously starting to think that maybe dragons can't travel through Shadesmar, since apparently Frost has stuck to Yolen. These two wobs seem to dispel that theory.

 

4 hours ago, Draginon said:

Maybe the red eyed people from BOM are dragons? Dragons are immortal and can shapeshift, in other words they are Faceless Immortals.

I don't know how much this theory has been spouted, but I'm more inclined to believe those guys are like the Fused/Svrakiss. Immortal ancestors of a sort.

 

If I had to put a guess on dragons, Brandon kinda made it sound like it's people we haven't actually seen on-screen, but are players in the stories we have. That would make me guess something like the leaders of the Set, which is...not great.

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Draginon

Draginon

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1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I find that unlikely since then the dragon just killed itself in the explosion since they're just unaging, not truly immortal.

Seeing as that was from the POV of Suit and he himself died in the explosion we can't say for sure if the red eyed man died since it was Suit himself believing the man died (not the first time we've had information be 'false'since we've had characters give us false info because that's what they believed)

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Spicker

+Spicker

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Are there any theories about Hoid being a dragon? We know he is from the same place, along with others who became shards of Adonalsium (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/355/#e10497). Do any of these fit as being a dragon, either now or in the past? Or do you think he is talking about character that have not yet been confirmed as being from the Dragonsteel world?

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Spicker

+Spicker

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@Calderis Thanks, I forgot about that one. I agree it is not likely that he was ever a dragon then (unless there is a way to change your race that we don't know about yet.)
 

I guess my other question is, do we know how dragons work? Can they shift into any shape/species, or do they just have a human form? 
After reading this thread, I couldn't help but think of the dragons from Fablehaven, for anyone who has read that series. They have a dragon form (their true form) and a human form, with different abilities as a human.
Do the dragons from Yolen use magic/investiture to change forms, or is it inherent in their race?

I also saw this (https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1052#98):

 

Quote

 

NUTIKETAIEL

Were the original sixteen Shardholders after the shattering all human?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Uh … RAFO. There are three races on Yolen. Three sentient races.

 

 
 
This gives me the impression that the 16 shardholders could be a combination of the three races (including dragons). So maybe some of the shardholders were at one time dragons. Now it is left to speculate if any of the ones we know about were dragons at one point. I don't think we have even close to enough information to know this yet, I just like thinking of the possibilities.
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Weltall

Weltall

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The idea that Edgli was a dragon pre-Ascension comes from a combination of Nalthis having the word in their language (which Brandon has confirmed is not a translation quirk) and maybe some guessing based on the fact that her name sounds kinda exotic. But we've got other Vessels with similarly fanciful names (Tanavast for example) so we shouldn't read too much into that. It's entirely speculative at this point.

4 hours ago, A stick said:

I haven't read Dragonsteel Prime, so there's a chance this may be wrong, but I assume theres a decent amount of dragons who are either "evil" or very annoyed at the shards for causing Adonalsium's shattering.

It's quite likely that at least one of the Vessels was a dragon and thus part of the Shattering, since we know that Frost was involved in some way and we know there was at least one Sho Del Vessel in Uli Da. it's quite likely that at least one of the unknown Vessels (or one of the known ones who aren't confirmed as having been human) was also a dragon to give all three races some representation. Given Bavadin's avatars and Brandon's caution that we shouldn't put too much stock in gender or even human appearance where Autonomy's Vessel is concerned, she's my leading candidate for a dragon among the Vessels we currently know about.

On the other point, we really don't know a thing about dragons other than that they're naturally immortal and can shapeshift, so we don't have grounds to speculate on what the prevailing opinions of that race are on the events of the last ten thousand or so years, or if they even have a prevailing opinion. Revise that same sentence to be 'I assume there's a decent amount of humans who are either 'evil' etc...' to see what I mean. The only confirmed dragon we have right now is Frost, unless you count a brief appearance by one in the released chapters of Dragonsteel Prime and one is not a useful sample size.

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Journey Before Pancakes

Journey Before Pancakes

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58 minutes ago, Slimy_Slider said:

Endowment as Dragon? Pfft. Obviously its the Survival Shard, who's living on Vax, with all the missing Shardblades and Kelsier and probably Unity as well. Who is also the Evil from Threnody, which was actually created by Hoid.

I'm pretty sure the 17th Shard is the Evil from Threnody who are hunting Hoid.  It makes perfect sense.

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The Young Pyromancer

The Young Pyromancer

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4 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

As far as I'm aware that's not fact, just speculation. Do you have a source to back that up?

No, it's just a theory that Brandon has hinted at, and has a good chance of being correct.

There was the letter too, which sounded like it looked down on others, which would make sense as a lot of dragons in fantasy are stuck up.

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Child of Hodor

+Child of Hodor

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Posted (edited)

The evidence for Mraize being a dragon is mostly that his mouth and hands are badly scarred. Fangs and foreclaws would be a dragon’s primary weapons in their natural form and would be exposed to counterattacks. 

The other traditional dragon weapon is their breath weapon and Mraize does love playing with that blow gun.

He also speaks in Hunter and Prey metaphors which an apex predator like a dragon might think in. 

The hunter talk he may have picked up from his “babsk” Iyatil who is descended from a group of Southern Scadrians called The Hunters https://coppermind.net/wiki/Southern_Scadrian#The_Hunters

She also uses the blow gun to try to kill Amaram in WoR, so it might be hers as well. Still, Mraize is constantly toying with it, maybe it reminds him of a thing he can do in his true form.

Edited by Child of Hodor
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Calderis

Calderis

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

No, it's just a theory that Brandon has hinted at, and has a good chance of being correct.

In what way has this been hinted? Other than the WoB in the OP, the WoB that says that they can appear human, and what we know of Frost, Brandon has been remarkably tight lipped about Cosmere dragons. 

The only thing hinting that any vessel is a dragon that I'm aware of is what Weltall listed, in that they existed as one of the three species on Yolen. 

51 minutes ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

There was the letter too, which sounded like it looked down on others, which would make sense as a lot of dragons in fantasy are stuck up.

She looked down on Hoid and the Vessels who were killed. I don't think we know anything about her views generally. Every person mentioned would be someone she had close contact with. Plenty of possible reasons for grudges beyond being "stuck up." 

Edited by Calderis
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