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Theories From the Void: Ancient Rosharan History and Speculation


Blightsong

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Great theory!

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They were a people forlorn, without home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind. “ ‘Beware the otherworlders. The traitors. Those with tongues of sweetness, but with minds that lust for blood. Do not take them in. Do not give them succor. Well were they named Voidbringers, for they brought the void. The empty pit that sucks in emotion. A new god. Their god.

I don't disagree, but I would point out that this Listener song seems to refer to how the "radiant" spren began bonding humans and Honor/Cultivation sided with humans.  When Eshonai transforms in WoR I-5 she sees the Stormfather and thinks of how he "betrayed" the Listeners, supporting humans instead. 

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According to Listener beliefs he is one of the Spren which betrayed them and protected the humans instead of Listeners. Because of his power, they still respect him, however, and it is thought that he would kill any who do not respect him. This leads to a mix of awe and fear being felt for him by the Listeners.[5]


 

"spren, stone and wind" refers to Cultivation and Honor spren. Wind = Honor is clear Cultivation = Stone because what plant life there is grows out of stone on Roshar (at least where the Listeners live).  These radiant spren began bonding the souls of the humans, which gave humans surgebinding and the spren greater cognition. Spren entering Listener gemhearts (held in a place most dear) didn't get the same cognitive benefit and were confined to a gemheart. 

This point really isn't essential to your theory. Your theory answers why, in the final WoK vision, Tanavast seems to think the Dawnshards won't be available to help against Odium. Odium hijacked them. 

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17 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Great theory!

I don't disagree, but I would point out that this Listener song seems to refer to how the "radiant" spren began bonding humans and Honor/Cultivation sided with humans.  When Eshonai transforms in WoR I-5 she sees the Stormfather and thinks of how he "betrayed" the Listeners, supporting humans instead. 

"spren, stone and wind" refers to Cultivation and Honor spren. Wind = Honor is clear Cultivation = Stone because what plant life there is grows out of stone on Roshar (at least where the Listeners live).  These radiant spren began bonding the souls of the humans, which gave humans surgebinding and the spren greater cognition. Spren entering Listener gemhearts (held in a place most dear) didn't get the same cognitive benefit and were confined to a gemheart. 

This point really isn't essential to your theory. Your theory answers why, in the final WoK vision, Tanavast seems to think the Dawnshards won't be available to help against Odium. Odium hijacked them. 

That first quote isnt a Listener song, it is the Eila Stele, a document written before the cycle of desolations:

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“Uncle, the piece that historians have been most eager to translate is called the Eila Stele. Other sources claim it is old, perhaps the oldest document in written memory, said to be scribed by the Heralds themselves. From the translation that finally came in today, the carving appears to be the account of someone who witnessed the very first coming of the Voidbringers, long, long ago. Even before the first Desolation." 

Read these too, both from the Stormfather:

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“THEY ARE REBORN USING THE BODIES OF PARSHMEN TO BECOME THE FUSED. AND EVEN BEFORE THE FUSED LEARNED TO COMMAND THE SURGES, MEN COULD NOT FIGHT THEM. HUMANS COULD NEVER WIN WHEN THE CREATURES THEY KILLED WERE REBORN EACH TIME THEY WERE SLAIN. AND SO, THE OATHPACT. “Ten people,” Dalinar said. “Five male, five female.” He looked at the swords. “They stopped this?” THEY GAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION.”

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““But Jezerezeh was a Windrunner.” He was before Windrunners. He was Jezrien, a man whose powers bore no name. They were simply him.”

This means that the Spren who granted the surges and betrayed men from that first quote couldnt have been the modern Radiant-spren we see today. It just doesnt work in the timeline laid out for us. I made that assumption too but i think the repeated use of the word 'betrayal' was a red herring. This also holds true for that bit of the Listener's songs if you go back and read it.

Edited by Blightsong
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Now I'm thinking the Void-God was splintered by H+C into the dawnshards. And then they were Unmade by Odium. That Odiums obsession with Passion is because of his connection to the Unmade hence the Dawnshards and this Void-God. And that Dai-Gonarthis is the core of the creature.

Edited by ScavellTane
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1 hour ago, ScavellTane said:

Now I'm thinking the Void-God was splintered by H+C into the dawnshards. And then they were Unmade by Odium. That Odiums obsession with Passion is because of his connection to the Unmade hence the Dawnshards and this Void-God. And that Dai-Gonarthis is the core of the creature.

What Void-God?

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Sorry if I'm missing things you've already said, but I'm trying to sort through a bunch of information, and compare it against my own theories:)

--At what point do you believe that the Dawnshards changed to Unmade, and how? Are you suggesting with this quote:

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They were a people forlorn, without home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind. Beware the otherworlders. The traitors. Those with tongues of sweetness, but with minds that lust for blood. Do not take them in. Do not give them succor. Well were they named Voidbringers, for they brought the void. The empty pit that sucks in emotion. A new god. Their god.

that they brought the Unmade with them, therefore they became Unmade prior to the Oathpact or Desolations? What do you think caused the switch?

And if they did switch before leaving Ashyn, do you think it's reasonable for Honor to have said that "the Dawnshards" destroyed Ashyn rather than "the Unmade"?

 

I'm trying to fix together a similar theory, but it doesn't (yet) include the Sibling as one of the Dawnshards. It's more tied to the Heralds and their broken-but-not Oathpact.

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37 minutes ago, Stormlightning said:

Sorry if I'm missing things you've already said, but I'm trying to sort through a bunch of information, and compare it against my own theories:)

--At what point do you believe that the Dawnshards changed to Unmade, and how? Are you suggesting with this quote:

that they brought the Unmade with them, therefore they became Unmade prior to the Oathpact or Desolations? What do you think caused the switch?

And if they did switch before leaving Ashyn, do you think it's reasonable for Honor to have said that "the Dawnshards" destroyed Ashyn rather than "the Unmade"?

 

I'm trying to fix together a similar theory, but it doesn't (yet) include the Sibling as one of the Dawnshards. It's more tied to the Heralds and their broken-but-not Oathpact.

I'm wary to make a conjecture on when exactly they were changed and other details because we barely have information about this stuff, but the hints are there that the Unmade involve investiture that was corrupted.

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FirstSelector:
Does red in cosmere signify one Shard co-opting or corrupting another Shard's magic?

Brandon Sanderson:
Yes.

Quote

rjl:
If Red investiture = co-opted by another Shard, what about the Thrill?

Brandon Sanderson:
Kind of.

 

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5 hours ago, Blightsong said:

This means that the Spren who granted the surges and betrayed men from that first quote couldnt have been the modern Radiant-spren we see today. It just doesnt work in the timeline laid out for us. I made that assumption too but i think the repeated use of the word 'betrayal' was a red herring. This also holds true for that bit of the Listener's songs if you go back and read it.

I agree in part. They aren't technically the same Spren. For the other Nahel Spren, they wouldn't have existed yet. 

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Do the spren that we know of as the Cryptics exist before Honor and Cultivation came?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Ah, good question! No. Cryptics would be one of the forms of spren that were a later creation. Creation is the wrong term, but yeah. 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Later development? Evolution?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

All of the sapient spren are later developments. 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Are they evolved from the earlier spren?

Brandon [PENDING REVIEW]

Evolution doesn't work the same way on the spren, right? The spren were created more than evolved, I would say.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Maybe cultivated?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah, cultivated. [crowd laughter]

source

For the Stormfather and Nightwatcher, I think that they did, but were augmented by the Shards. Their augmentation may actually be what inspired the corruption of the Dawnshards in the first place. 

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6 hours ago, Blightsong said:

That first quote isnt a Listener song, it is the Eila Stele, a document written before the cycle of desolations:

Read these too, both from the Stormfather:

This means that the Spren who granted the surges and betrayed men from that first quote couldnt have been the modern Radiant-spren we see today. It just doesnt work in the timeline laid out for us. I made that assumption too but i think the repeated use of the word 'betrayal' was a red herring. This also holds true for that bit of the Listener's songs if you go back and read it.

43 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I agree in part. They aren't technically the same Spren. For the other Nahel Spren, they wouldn't have existed yet. 

For the Stormfather and Nightwatcher, I think that they did, but were augmented by the Shards. Their augmentation may actually be what inspired the corruption of the Dawnshards in the first place. 


Yeah, they aren't radiant spren as we know them now. I'm not convinced ancient spren couldn't help humans access the magic system, but I'll get to that. 

More generally, we know the Singers pre-date the Shattering and we know Honor and Cultivation were on Roshar for a while before humans came and brought the void with them. For a while there where the Singers, Honor & Cultivation on the planet. Spren existed back then and from the POV of the Singers there were spren that could be held in their gemhearts and there were other spren who just did their own thing, but there weren't a whole bunch of spren actively aiding "the other side" in a great war or anything. 

Then, at some point after the humans came, eventually humans and Singers were fighting mostly on opposite sides of a war or wars and some spren were actively aiding humans. It is implied in "The Girl Who Looked Up" that the ancient humans finding out about Stormlight is what motivated their exodus from Shinovar. Choosing to live in those constant storms only makes sense if they are using the Stormlight for more than pretty lighting. Those ancient humans who expanded and conquered were using Stormlight to fuel magic powers accessed either through bonds or fabrials either way spren were involved. 

From the Singers perspective the spren had always been either allies or largely neutral spirits of nature, emotions etc. When humans started expanding and making war on the Singers all of a sudden humans were making war against them with magic accessed via spren this would have been seen as a betrayal. Even though it was newer types of spren that had not existed in that form on Roshar previously Singers would have viewed them as part of the larger spren community and felt betrayed.  

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““But Jezerezeh was a Windrunner.” He was before Windrunners. He was Jezrien, a man whose powers bore no name. They were simply him.”

He is saying the powers predate the order of the knights radiant, but humans were using these powers before the knights radiant or the Heralds.  The 10 surges are a way of accessing the 10 fundamental forces that are inherent to the magic system in the Rosharan system that was all set up by Adonalsium. The Shard filters how those powers are accessed, but not their basic nature. 

 
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  Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)
#7Feb. 18, 2017

Brandon Sanderson

But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place.

 


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Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)
#29

EHyde

Certainly, so I'm just going to run with that right now. So the question that I'm asking is, is surgebinding in general a melding of Honor and Odium, a la feruchemy being in some sense not directly derivative of Ruin and Preservation?

Brandon Sanderson

It is...Honor and Cultivation is what you mean?

EHyde

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

There are spren of all three Shards, and those spren can work within the bounds of the magic that has already been set up on Roshar.

 

 


It could be that these ancient humans got access to surges again through the Dawnshards, but other spren may have been capable of granting access by then. Honor and Cultivation had been present on Roshar for a while and some of their Spren or Spren they modified could have granted access to the surges or powers that could be called surges. 

If it is through Dawnshards it may need to be pre-corruption though. If Odium co-opted spren like the Unmade nahel bonded humans then Voidbinding may be a more appropriate term than Surgebinding and the same underlying 10 forces may manifest differently enough in execution that they wouldn't have been referred to in world as "Surges". That's a whole other can of worms though. 

I know Amaram ate a gem with an Unmade and he got access to powers while the gem ate him inside out, but that's different from nahel bonding an Unmade. 

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So correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in one of Dalinar's visions Nohadon said something akin to 'Not all spren are as discerning as honorspren'. In that vision, it was confirmed that surgebinders existed and also that there was no formal organisation (Knights Radiant). So I don't see any reason why surgebinding could not have existed with the same types of spren, just without formal structure within each Order.

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23 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

He is saying the powers predate the order of the knights radiant, but humans were using these powers before the knights radiant or the Heralds.

I think this is where our main disagreement is. In that quote, the Stromfather says the powers themselves, not the wielders of the magic, weren't even named at that point (before the first desolation). Even if they weren't called Windrunning, I dont think the powers wouldnt have been named up until that point. You could say he meant that last part to mean that his soul was tied to the powers, but in the context of the first part I think thats a stretch. The clear interpretation of this part is that the powers didn't exist until Jezrien. In light of that, the rest of your argument doesn't really work. I'm willing to agree to disagree over the cymantics but I really dont think Brandon would be that misleading, he would have simply said "a man whose powers did not bear that name".

16 minutes ago, DracostarA said:

So correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in one of Dalinar's visions Nohadon said something akin to 'Not all spren are as discerning as honorspren'. In that vision, it was confirmed that surgebinders existed and also that there was no formal organisation (Knights Radiant). So I don't see any reason why surgebinding could not have existed with the same types of spren, just without formal structure within each Order.

I'm not disagreeing with you guys on this point, it really is just that one line. The below WoB also implies what i'm saying to be true.

edit: Actually, I do disagree. This vision was during the cycle of desolations so Ishar would have made sure they were organized as explained below.

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"But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

That part "he readily understood the implications of surges being granted to men" implies that they weren't granted before the Heralds existed.

You could kind of dismiss these two pieces of evidence individually, maybe not the first one, but together I'm pretty convinced. I'd have to be shown direct evidence that Surgebinding existed pre-heralds to think otherwise.

Edited by Blightsong
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5 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

That part "he readily understood the implications of surges being granted to men" implies that they weren't granted before the Heralds existed.

I don't think surgebinding existed pre-heralds, but I do think there was a period of time between the Nahel bond developing and the formation of the Orders. 

There were surgebinders, with everything that entails, but no unifying structure of shared goals. 

As far as pre-nahel bond goes, it was either the Dawnshards, or some holdover of Ashyn's magic that has since been lost (diseases dying out for example). 

The Elia Stele makes it clear they had some form of the Surges when they arrived. 

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Interesting thought. I wasn't on board the idea of the Dawnshards being spren or the Unmade being the Dawnshards, but this is presented in a lot more convincing manner. A thought I had while discussion on Discord which could at to this idea.

From OB:

Quote

[Honor] raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls.

- Oathbringer, Chapter 113

What if the Unmade were made long ago, and they were used to destroy Ashyn as well. Their influence was applied there, and it was a part of its downfall.

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Yeah  I agree with @Calderis so my timeline of the magic on Roshar (in relation to humans) would be:

  1. Dawnshards, leftover 'surges' from Ashyn are the only remnants of magic.
  2. Heralds are given Honorblades and can access their surges.
  3. Spren (i.e. honorspren, cultivationspren etc. like we see today) mimic these powers and provide Surgebinding to humans.
  4. Ishar realises that humans need structure and organisation to limit the use of these powers so they won't be reckless with them, and founds the Knights Radiant.

However, @Blightsong I think this is a completely separate issue to your main theory, with which I agree.

@Spoolofwhool Since Odium arrived in the Rosharan system that theory is plausible within the timeline, but Honor also assigned responsibility of Ashyn's destruction to humans, which I doubt he would if he was aware Odium had influence on Ashyn.

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9 hours ago, DracostarA said:

@Spoolofwhool Since Odium arrived in the Rosharan system that theory is plausible within the timeline, but Honor also assigned responsibility of Ashyn's destruction to humans, which I doubt he would if he was aware Odium had influence on Ashyn.

It was also pointed out that Honor was not in his right mind at that point in time. He could've been focusing on the end result without any mention of other factor involved.

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We also have The Old Magic to explain. Is this something that was on Roshar before? Brandon does not consider it one of the Big Three Magic Systems:

Quote

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

Questioner

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them.  I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one.  And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

My personal theory is that The Nightwatcher is a "made", and that's why her magic isn't operating under a regular magic system, just like we wouldn't count any of the Unmade as a unique magic system either. This is confusing though because we have one Unmade saying (paraphrased) "We were made then unmade. I am not of him. I am of me. I am an ally!", but then we have this WOB

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Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

1) The Nightwatcher and Stormfather are parallel entities such that Nighwatcher:Cultivation :: Stormfather:Honor.

2) There is sort of a parallel for Odium, but the parallel is the various Unmade instead of a single entity.

3) They are parallel in that they are all Splinters.

4) The Unmade are voluntary Splinters, because Odium ("like almost all of the other Shards") voluntarily Splintered part of it's power.

5) The Stormfather is different from the others because it's a Sliver.

 

And While we know that the Storm predates the arrival of shards, we do'nt know if the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher and the Made predate the arrival

 

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JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

KolinahrMaster (paraphrased)

Does the Nightwatcher predate the Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO'ed on the grounds that the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather are parallel (see 1 above) and whatever he reveals about the Nightwatcher by extension spoils Oathbringer which will be heavy on Dalinar and Stormfather reveals

Quetioner (paraphrased)

Is the Nightwatcher a spren of Cultivation in a similar way that the Stormfather is to Honor?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Nightwatcher is not Cultivation but is related. You're on the right track.

 

There must have been magic on Roshar pre Shard influence, and the Made/God Spen are pretty good candidates. I would love some more facts on what the natural magic system was in the before-time (and it better not just be Pure Lake Fishymancing) 

Quote

WeiryWriter

Are the "magic fish" of the Purelake the result of symbiotic bonds with spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes they are. Many creatures on Roshar have such interactions with spren.

 

Edited by teknopathetic
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16 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

We also have The Old Magic to explain. Is this something that was on Roshar before? Brandon does not consider it one of the Big Three Magic Systems:

My personal theory is that The Nightwatcher is a "made", and that's why her magic isn't operating under a regular magic system, just like we wouldn't count any of the Unmade as a unique magic system either. This is confusing though because we have one Unmade saying (paraphrased) "We were made then unmade. I am not of him. I am of me. I am an ally!", but then we have this WOB

 

However, the Nightwatcher seems to be powering or co-opting this ability

 

And While we know that the Storm predates the arrival of shards, we dont know if the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher and the Made predate the arrival

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)
#6 Share  Copy

 

 

These quotes do make it seem like The Nightwatcher is something other than just a Spren-Pool of Cultivation, and that she is older in some way i.e. Old Magic. 

 

Yeah, pre-existing entity that Cultivation "adopted" and tweaked. Old Magic as in Oooooooollld pre-H & C arriving on the planet. I'm not sure if Nightwatcher was playing the Boon-Bane game back then, but maybe her ability to predates H & C.

I think it's like the Parshendi where they were of Adonalsium so they are not of Honor, Cultivation or Odium originally, but have since been influenced by them. 

 
Quote

 

#3Sept. 26, 2012

Kaist

Are the Parshendi of Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

 
Footnote: It has since been confirmed that the listeners/Parshendi are not of Honor, and "not originally" of Cultivation or Odium.

 

 

 

Quote

Mother? the Nightwatcher said. Mother, he came to me. I was going to bless him. THANK YOU, CHILD, the woman said. ... I LET HER HOLD COURT HERE. The woman brushed her fingers through the Nightwatcher's misty hair. IT HELPS HER UNDERSTAND YOU. 

On the one hand I LET HER makes it seem like this is something Nightwatcher wants to do and C is just permitting it. IT HELPS HER UNDERSTAND YOU makes it seem like this is an assignment or an apprenticeship for Nightwatcher meant to develop or cultivate ( :o ) her.  

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Old Magic seems to basically be just the Nightwatcher or Cultivation directly tampering with people. Not a magic system at all, just a demonstration of what can be done when an entity has sufficient power in the Cosmere, akin to Rashek reshaping Scadrial and its inhabitants or Sazed healing Spook.

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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  • 4 weeks later...

We got some WoB relevant to this theory from the Skype Q&A so I thought I'd go over that stuff here real quick. First up, one on my conjectures on Voidbinding:

Quote

Blightsong [PENDING REVIEW]

In Oathbringer it is revealed that the humans who originally came to Roshar were the first ones to be named Voidbringers and that they carried magical powers. The Stormfather also implies that modern surgebinding didn't exist before the Heralds. Were the original powers that the humans possessed Voidbinding?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, we're getting into lots of interesting definitional problems here. And lots of ways that different entities perceive the definitions of different terms. I will answer this question specifically as we do the flashbacks from Ash and Taln's viewpoints. So you've got a long ways to wait. But understand that definitions are not always... the way that people define things cannot always be trusted. That said, humans were not using powers from Honor originally.

I'm pretty confused as to what that first part could be getting at, as he left it about as vague as he possibly could as to what he was specifically referring to. That last part, however, did narrow down some options. We know that the surges related to the powers of the Heralds and Surgebinding are a direct manifestation of Honor, so this eliminates the portion of fabrial magic that draws upon those surges to function. At this point we know it was likely Voidbinding, the Old Magic, some other Ashyn related system, or possibly fabrials that manipulate any of those. I'm glad this one didn't get RAFOed outright.

Quote

RenegadeShroom [PENDING REVIEW]

Have any groups of Singers ever had any nonbinary genders? That is to say, a fifth gender recognised by their culture, rather than malen and femalen, which seem to function as more of an extension of the gender binary than anything our culture would recognise as nonbinary.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

This question is a bit more important though and is some of the most concrete proof that perhaps the Sibling is more than they appear. Read the below WoB:

Quote

wiresegal

In OB, you explained that the Singers have four sexes. I was wondering... Can the Singers have genders other than those four, like humans? Even as simple as just not going with male, female, or malen/femalen. Could a transgender Singer use their ability to shift forms to change their biological reality? And, finally, could a Spren be non-binary, if it wasn't personified in a typical male/female way?

Brandon Sanderson

In the cosmere as a whole, a person's perception of themselves has a lot of power over both their Spiritual and Physical forms. It is possible, with investiture, to change their biology to match Cognitive perceptions--and while this could be easier for some races (like the Singers) it's not outside plausibility for any race.

There are non-binary spren, actually--and you should be meeting one important one quite soon in the books.

That first WoB, coupled with the fact that the Sibling is non-binary is great evidence that the spren could have existed prior to the desolation of Ashyn, which supports the claims I make in this theory as to its nature.

All in all, pretty cool stuff. Big thanks to whoever asked my question for me.

Edited by Blightsong
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40 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

So, we're getting into lots of interesting definitional problems here. And lots of ways that different entities perceive the definitions of different terms.

This is actually something I was wondering about in my most recent reread, and I am glad that you asked about it. I read this as confirming my suspicion that not all groups of people are referring to the same magic system when they use similar terminology for things. I think this is evident with the confusions about what a voidbringer is. We know who the first voidbringers were, but that term was later used to describe a different people. We also see Lift calling Wyndle a voidbringer, which may indicate that she was exposed to people that saw any spren as voidbringers. It can get kid of confusing when trying to define voidbringer. Some groups of people would have different definitions for that.
This WoB makes it seem like the same may be true for the terms surgebinding and voidbinding. We know that they have definite differences and rules for each, but that doesn't mean that we can necessarily take all of the accounts of them at face value. We may be lead to believe that one group is talking about a magic based around Odium, then later find out it was really something else. I don't have a specific theory about which accounts may be misleading just yet, I just have a general feeling that what is viewed as voidbinding or surgebinding to one population is not necessarily the same to a different one, which is why he specifies that the question will really be answered in Ash's and Taln's flashbacks. I am assuming that they're past perspectives will be the closest to being accurate (although this may end up being a false assumption, too).

Overall though, I don't think it changes anything with this theory. I generally agree with most of it and lean towards something like this. I am now left still wondering where the sibling is now. There are two ideas I like, and I think that either could possibly fit with this theory. I like the idea of the sibling being related to the sleepless:

but I also like the idea that the sibling is related to stone:

I like both theories, so I want both to work. This probably isn't possible, but I will go back and look at things again to try to make sense of it. 

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On 10/9/2018 at 0:18 PM, Spicker said:

This is actually something I was wondering about in my most recent reread, and I am glad that you asked about it. I read this as confirming my suspicion that not all groups of people are referring to the same magic system when they use similar terminology for things. I think this is evident with the confusions about what a voidbringer is. We know who the first voidbringers were, but that term was later used to describe a different people. We also see Lift calling Wyndle a voidbringer, which may indicate that she was exposed to people that saw any spren as voidbringers. It can get kid of confusing when trying to define voidbringer. Some groups of people would have different definitions for that.
This WoB makes it seem like the same may be true for the terms surgebinding and voidbinding. We know that they have definite differences and rules for each, but that doesn't mean that we can necessarily take all of the accounts of them at face value. We may be lead to believe that one group is talking about a magic based around Odium, then later find out it was really something else. I don't have a specific theory about which accounts may be misleading just yet, I just have a general feeling that what is viewed as voidbinding or surgebinding to one population is not necessarily the same to a different one, which is why he specifies that the question will really be answered in Ash's and Taln's flashbacks. I am assuming that they're past perspectives will be the closest to being accurate (although this may end up being a false assumption, too).

Overall though, I don't think it changes anything with this theory. I generally agree with most of it and lean towards something like this. I am now left still wondering where the sibling is now. There are two ideas I like, and I think that either could possibly fit with this theory. I like the idea of the sibling being related to the sleepless:

but I also like the idea that the sibling is related to stone:

I like both theories, so I want both to work. This probably isn't possible, but I will go back and look at things again to try to make sense of it. 

I've started thinking about this more and I think I see where this specific problem could lie. We know through the famous Argent WoB that Renarin was definitely Voidbinding, but we havent seen hints of anything else like his bond yet. It's interesting then that Nightform Listeners seem to be able to manipulate the same Voidbinding surge as him (likely through a form, as the name implies, and not a bond like Renarin).

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"Nightform predicting what will be, / The form of shadows, mind to foresee. / As the gods did leave, the nightform whispered. / A new storm will come, someday to break. / A new storm a new world to make. / A new storm a new path to take, the nightform listens."

Just as the Singers with forms of power are able to use Surges outside of the KR magic system and its rules, it seems as if there are Singers who could use Voidbinding surges as well. Its curious to me that the form associated with Renarin's powers (granted to him by Sja-Anat's corrupted spren) is described as "The form of shadows", imagery we see associated with Sja-Anat in Oathbringer:

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The reflection didn’t mimic her motions, but pressed forward, raising hands against the glass. The reflected room faded and the figure distorted, and became a jet-black shadow with white holes for eyes. Radiant, the thing said, mouthing the words. My name is Sja-anat. And I am not your enemy.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 816). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

I could easily see the historical distinction between these two kinds of Voidbinding as the issue Brandon is alluding to here. What are your guy's thoughts?

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On 9/12/2018 at 2:04 AM, Blightsong said:

Every Cognitive entity we have seen up until this point has been derived from the power of one of the Shards, so the statement that she is only of herself is much more important than just the denial that she is of Odium. This implies that she isn't of Honor or Cultivation either, that she pre-dates the dawn of the Shards and the modern history of the Cosmere, that she is of Adonalsium himself. We know that Adonalsium had a careful hand in the creation of Roshar, from the statement from Frost in the Letters, the ten outer gas giants, to the continent of Roshar itself being based on a Julia set, so it makes sense that he would have made the original spren as well.

Being "of" a Shard is an interesting turn of phrase, since even early in the books it was never used strictly to refer to Investiture's association. From the HoA chapter 80 epigraph:

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The kandra people always said they were of Preservation, while the koloss and Inquisitors were of Ruin. Yet, the kandra bore Hemalurgic spikes, just like the others. Was their claim, then, simple delusion?

No, I think not. They were created by the Lord Ruler to be spies. When they said such things, most of us interpreted that as meaning he planned to use them as spies in his new government, because of their ability to imitate other people. Indeed, they were used for this purpose.

But I see something much more grand in their existence. They were the Lord Ruler’s double agents, planted with Hemalurgic spikes, yet trusted—taught, bound—to pull them free when Ruin tried to seize them. In Ruin’s moment of triumph, when he’d always assumed the kandra would be his on a whim, the vast majority of them immediately switched sides and left him unable to seize his prize.

They were of Preservation all along.

Kandra are created through Hemalurgy, Ruin's magic system. But where their Investiture came from did match who they aligned themselves with in terms of purpose. They were on Perservation's team, so to speak, not on Ruin's. And I think that's the way to take Sja-anat's statement here, as well. Not that her Investiture is no longer aligned with any Shard; but that she no longer serves Odium. She hasn't done a full-on betrayal to the other team, like many Highspren and at least one Ashspren. But she has goals of her own that aren't served by either of those Shards.

 

On 9/12/2018 at 2:04 AM, Blightsong said:

I think you all see where I've been going, I believe that the Unmade were powerful spren that existed in the Rosharan system before any influence from the Shards and that these are what were referred to as Dawnshards.

I'm not a fan of this idea, mostly because I have a hard time reconciling the Unmade with this passage:

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But in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying. When that generation of knights learned the truth, Honor did not support them. He raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Honor... promised that Surgebiners would do the same to Roshar.

That same generation of Knights had at least one Unmade imprisoned: Re-Shephir. And depending on how soon after the Recreance Honor died (it is the furthest historical vision Dalinar experiences, though that may merely be due to lack of subject matter than any chronological association), Re-Shephir may have still been imprisoned; so when Honor says "without the Dawnshards," that would indicate to me that the Dawnshards and Unmade are two separate things.

Dawnshards and Unmade both being some of the biggest ongoing mysteries in Stormlight, I'll admit that it's difficult to convince anyone about any interpretation regarding these subjects; there's just so much blank space that any number of theories can fit. But I've found myself being influenced more and more by the Diagram's dismissal of the Unmade as "a deviation, a flair." They're visceral, they're pretty nasty, but there are a lot of things over the course of the Desolations that changed the status quo. I've been thinking lately that the Unmade are "merely" a product of the Desolations, something new from Odium's bag of tricks. Which wouldn't be unprecedented. The Desolations aren't one war - they're a series of wars, dozens of them, and just like real life, I think there were major advancements in warfare. Even in the brief 200-odd years of American history, you compare the Revolutionary War to the Civil War to World War II, the tactics and technology are so completely and utterly different as time progresses.

When the first Desolation began (the human invasion of Singer lands, before the Fused and before the Oathpact), there were no Surgebinders. (Except perhaps the Heralds, if they had their Honorblades before the Oathpact.) There was no Shardplate. There were no modern fabrials. The Fused couldn't Surgebind. There was no Everstorm. All of these things rolled out over centuries of warfare, new strategies that each side unveiled to try to gain an edge. And my current thoughts put the Unmade as another of these phenomena; created during a Desolation, but eventually became part of the status quo. Like Radiants or Surgebinding Fused. Potentially as extremely twisted Singer souls, which is why Kai-garnis (a Fused or thundersclast at Thaylen Field) has a name so similar to Dai-gonarthis.

This is also partly because the Unmade were left behind on Roshar after the Final Desolation. (Which I know runs counter to the idea that Unmade are super-Fused, as I mentioned out above. I'm just tossing out some possibilities that point to similar conclusions.) The Fused returned to Braize, but the Thrill and the Death Rattles stuck around on Roshar and became accepted parts of some cultures. I don't recall a single mention of an Unmade on Braize. And this is the point I've been building towards: can you find any indication that the Unmade came from, went to, or were ever on Braize? Knocking down the idea that the Unmade are a purely Rosharan phenomenon, through placing one on Braize, would give some credence to the idea that they could have hopped over from another world.

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17 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

Being "of" a Shard is an interesting turn of phrase, since even early in the books it was never used strictly to refer to Investiture's association. From the HoA chapter 80 epigraph:

Kandra are created through Hemalurgy, Ruin's magic system. But where their Investiture came from did match who they aligned themselves with in terms of purpose. They were on Perservation's team, so to speak, not on Ruin's. And I think that's the way to take Sja-anat's statement here, as well. Not that her Investiture is no longer aligned with any Shard; but that she no longer serves Odium. She hasn't done a full-on betrayal to the other team, like many Highspren and at least one Ashspren. But she has goals of her own that aren't served by either of those Shards.

I'm wary to draw parallels between how Sazed talks about these things and how these phrases are used on Roshar. Roshar has a long history of interaction with spren and with understanding their nature and the terminology there seems to be a lot more Investiture focused, read the below passage from Ivory:

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A spren is, Ivory said. The wrong spren is. Renarin Kholin was a liar. He was no Truthwatcher. That is a spren of Odium, Ivory said. Corrupted spren. But … a human, bonded to one? This thing is not.

He directly ties the corruption of Glys' intent to it being "of Odium"; these phrases are obviously being used in different ways here and I lean more towards the precedent being set within the same series. Your interpretation could definitely be correct but I think mine is just as valid.

17 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

I'm not a fan of this idea, mostly because I have a hard time reconciling the Unmade with this passage:

That same generation of Knights had at least one Unmade imprisoned: Re-Shephir. And depending on how soon after the Recreance Honor died (it is the furthest historical vision Dalinar experiences, though that may merely be due to lack of subject matter than any chronological association), Re-Shephir may have still been imprisoned; so when Honor says "without the Dawnshards," that would indicate to me that the Dawnshards and Unmade are two separate things.

When Honor says this, it always seemed to me that it was within the context of humanity being able to somehow utilize them against Odium, being brought up directly in connection to the success they would have if they forced Odium to choose a champion.

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“I wish I could do more,” repeated the figure in gold. “You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. And … without the Dawnshards … Well, I have done what I can. It is a terrible, terrible thing to leave you alone.”

Honor was a little all over the place at the end, and with what we learn at the end of Oathbringer about what Honor thought about the Dawnshards there may be more interpretations as to his meaning here, but they would all be awkward non-sequiturs in my eyes. In my presumed context, having a Dawnshard trapped and being able to utilize them are two different things so my theory would still make sense. The Sibling had also become catatonic by this point so that fits as well.

I could see why you would be hung up on that quote but I feel like a very strict interpretation of what he means by "without" is necessary for it to disprove my theory, even within interpretations other than my own things could still fit.

17 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

his is also partly because the Unmade were left behind on Roshar after the Final Desolation. (Which I know runs counter to the idea that Unmade are super-Fused, as I mentioned out above. I'm just tossing out some possibilities that point to similar conclusions.) The Fused returned to Braize, but the Thrill and the Death Rattles stuck around on Roshar and became accepted parts of some cultures. I don't recall a single mention of an Unmade on Braize. And this is the point I've been building towards: can you find any indication that the Unmade came from, went to, or were ever on Braize? Knocking down the idea that the Unmade are a purely Rosharan phenomenon, through placing one on Braize, would give some credence to the idea that they could have hopped over from another world.

I really don't think that where these entities are physically (or cognitively) now holds much relevance as to where they originated. As you mentioned, the Fused became trapped on Braize following the Oathpact despite originally being Rosharan natives and having nothing to do with Braize other than being of Odium. We dont even know if other non-Fused Cognitive Entities are locked in Braize or if its just them, the Stormfather says that the Oathpact was meant specifically meant to lock away the Fused in the below passage because of their ability to directly affect the PR and kill people. Any power leveled on them wouldn't necessarily affect the Unmade as well, so it makes sense that they would be spared its effects:

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THEY ARE REBORN USING THE BODIES OF PARSHMEN TO BECOME THE FUSED. AND EVEN BEFORE THE FUSED LEARNED TO COMMAND THE SURGES, MEN COULD NOT FIGHT THEM. HUMANS COULD NEVER WIN WHEN THE CREATURES THEY KILLED WERE REBORN EACH TIME THEY WERE SLAIN. AND SO, THE OATHPACT. “Ten people,” Dalinar said. “Five male, five female.” He looked at the swords. “They stopped this?” THEY GAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION.

The Unmade would obviously be of most use sticking around on and influencing Roshar, so them constantly being there makes way more sense than them being on Braize for no reason, but that doesn't mean Roshar is their origin. The connection they have to Voidbinding and the slight evidence we now have as to Voidbindings origins could point to them originating on Ashyn, but that remains one of the more tenuous conjectures in my theory so I'll put leave this reply here and tell y'all to take that statement with a grain of salt. Thanks for the in depth reply Page, I've been waiting for your response.

Edited by Blightsong
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