rererak

Spren Categorization

11 posts in this topic

I was noticing on several occasions that spren claim to be part of the gods (Honor, Odium, or Cultivation) and I began to wonder if all spren (or at least most) are part of the gods or only the ones who bond to Radiants. A part of this branched from Jasnah's explanation with Shallan on the boat about spren being either related to emotion or nature, such as glory or exhaustion spren and fire and rain spren. So as far as a generalization goes here is what I came up with and wanted to know everyone's opinion.

 

Honor:

We know that Honor has the honorspren and I think along those lines he tends to rule over the emotion spren, both good and bad. This is largely because in order to understand honor, in order to understand who you are as a human, you need to know the good and the bad. This does not include the absolute evil because, while pain is bad it also shows limits.
Honorspren (duh)

Stormfather?

Gloryspren

Exhaustionspren

Painspren

Fearspren
Ivory (wisdomspren? couldn't remember where Jasnah says what it is)

Cryptics (And this one's odd, I think it falls with the painspren, like there's a spectrum of "left and right" for where the spren fall and how well they interract with honor on the far left and cryptics on the slight right)

Emotion Spren in general

 

Cultivation:

Cultivation would be left with the nature spren, including Lift's spren Wyndle (I scanned the chapter and couldn't find the specific name since she keeps calling him a voidbringer) who talks about "mother"
Included alongside this would probably be 4 other spren that would fall under "nature" in my opinion.
Wyndle
Nightwalker? (goes alongside the stormfather as likely a part of Cultivation)
Rainspren
Firespren

Naturespren

Glys

Odium:
Odium has his own category of spren specifically...
Stormspren
Voidspren

Ones I have no clue:
Creationspren: I suspect these would end up with Honor but I'm not 100% sure
The Arrow-like spren: From the eels and chasmfiends, we do not know what they are or what they do but I suspect they'd end up with cultivation (I'm working on a very lengthy research article on greatshells so maybe I'll submit my opinion on those if I post it up)
Bindspren: Um... CAUSED by Syl who is from Honor but I suspect they're Cultivation's
The 50million spren that live in objects included dung: Since "everything" has a spren, I suspect not all would fit into a category...

I also want to believe that if spren DO fit into a category as part of one of the "gods" then I think five would fall under Honor and five under Cultivation. We have Syl, Ivory, Stormfather, and Pattern under Honor so far, in my opinion. Renarin's spren (Glys) and Ym's spren have no specific category since we know so little about them and Wyndle is obviously connected to Cultivation. So even if not all the spren are connected back to the gods, I am willing to bet that the ten that form the order would be all connected to Honor or Cultivation. Also, is there more gods than those two? Because that could change the entire spectrum, but I do not recall any hints at there being more than the three gods.

Edited by rererak
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The term "voidspren" refers to a category of spren, not a specific type - all spren whose Investiture comes from Odium are known as voidspren, Pattern explains this towards the end of Words of Radiance when one of the scholars assigned to Shallan considers the possibility that he is a Voidbringer.

 

Other than that, I like the idea of handing emotionspren to Honor and naturespren to Cultivation, but I'll probably leave the more... ambiguous ones to be either a mix of both Shards, or of Adonalsium.

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I wanted to add that I think Glys (Renarin's spren) falls under Cultivation as Renarin's skill definitely lies in futuresight and Honor has confessed he's not good at it. Also, I've been reading around and people think Pattern is a Cultivation spren. I could see that, especially as I had a debate with someone about Shallan possibly seeing "futures" (A debate I'll probably bring up here later). Besides, even Pattern says lies are a human thing and that was one thing he was trying to learn from Shallan. "Truth" is a more natural thing, although I am not entirely sure then why Syl would so adamantly reject lying.

By the way, I forget, is Pattern a truthspren or a liespren. I'd look it up but I forget where it's stated

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Cultivation:

Cultivation would be left with the nature spren, including Lift's spren Wyndle (I scanned the chapter and couldn't find the specific name since she keeps calling him a voidbringer) who talks about "mother"

Included alongside this would probably be 4 other spren that would fall under "nature" in my opinion.

Wyndle

Nightwalker? (goes alongside the stormfather as likely a part of Cultivation)

Rainspren

Firespren

Naturespren

Glys

Naturespren? You mean lifespren?

Also, there are Riverspren, which can supposedly talk, then possibly Cusicesh.

 

 

Just another quick thing, would Odium have Moelach and that other thing Taravangian mentioned as his spren?

By the way, I forget, is Pattern a truthspren or a liespren. I'd look it up but I forget where it's stated

Pattern is a Cryptic, lovingly dubbed a liespren.

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"Naturespren" was just kind of a generalization. I probably should've put a space there. When I go back and edit Odium's I'll add that, but like with "voidspren" and "emotionspren" I was just putting something to be an all enclusive for those I missed. I will add lifespren to Cultivation as well because I find them important. Also, can you lead me in the direction of Moelach or the other spren you (or, well, Taravangian) mentioned because I recall neither.

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Not sure exactly what they are, apparently Moelach and the other one (the name escapes me) are considered to be giant evil spirits known as the Unmade. Moelach is responsible for the Thrill, and considered evil and vile, which is why I believe he is one of Odium's bigger spren, essentially. The other one is responsible for the death rattles.

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Did Brandon say something about how some of the spren seem to have different ratios of Honor and Cultivation in them? Or was that something Shallan was talking about in the book? I thought for sure it was a question from the WoB compilation thread but I can't seem to find it. 

 

I was thinking possibly plantspren like Wyndle are pure Cultivation, honorspren, maybe gloryspren and creationspren are of Honor, but ones like painspren, fearspren, maybe Cryptics are a mix. 

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The "different ratios" thing is - was? - a popular fan theory. In fact, I asked something similar back during the Steelheart tour:

 

Q: Is Cultivation's Shardholder still alive.
A: Good question, what do you think?
Q: I want to say, but that's based on my knowledge before I read Lift's interlude from Words of Radiance. Now I am leaning towards no. Based on that interlude, it looks like spren have essence from both Honor and Cultivation. It's almost like they exist in a spectrum, on one end of which is Honor, and on the other - Cultivation; so there are spren that are, for the lack of better example, 90% Honor and 10% Cultivation, and there are spren that are 15% Honor and 85% Cultivation.
A: That's a very astute observation!
Q: And since we know that Honor is Splintered, then it might be the case that Cultivation is also Splintered, and their Splinters form the spren.

 

 

 
Brandon's response, in retrospect, was not as illuminating as I thought back then...
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That actually helps a lot though! Thanks! Also I'm still curious about where Pattern and Glys lie. I personally put them with Honor and Cultivation respectively... And I need to reread Tarvangian's words again apparently

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That actually helps a lot though! Thanks! Also I'm still curious about where Pattern and Glys lie. I personally put them with Honor and Cultivation respectively... And I need to reread Tarvangian's words again apparently

 

Since Wyndle is very viney and Cultivation-y, and the Truthwatchers are right next to his Order, it makes sense that Glys is near-pure Cultivation.

 

Also: the Surgebinding chart has the "double eye of the Almighty" in the middle, which apparently represents plants (Cultivation) and animals (Honor). Animals (humans - Honor) could be represented by the upper pupil of the eye (Bondsmiths), and plants could be represented by the lower pupil (Truthwatchers). The Stormfather basically is Honor, so it would make sense for the order opposite the Bondsmiths to basically be like Cultivation. I wouldn't be surprised if the Truthwatchers were the most Cultivation-y of the Orders.

 

As to Pattern, lying and creation seems to be more to be the opposite of Honor and mostly Cultivation. Pattern has no issue with Shallan joining the Ghostbloods. I'd peg the Lightweavers as mostly Cultivation with a dash of Honor to get their aspect of lies/truth.

 

This leads to the top half of the Surgebinding chart (top-right?) being more Honor-y Orders, and the bottom half being more Cultivation-y Orders. The farther you get away from Bondsmiths/Truthwatchers, the more mixed the Orders become. Elsecallers/Dustbringers might be somewhere around 50/50 H/C.

Edited by Moogle
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This is in support of what Moogle is suggesting above with some additions.

Since Wyndle is very viney and Cultivationy, and the Truthwatchers are right next to his Order, it makes sense that Glys is near-pure Cultivation.

 

Also: the Surgebinding chart has the "double eye of the Almighty" in the middle, which apparently represents plants and animals. Animals (humans) could be represented by the upper pupil of the eye (Bondsmiths), and plants could be represented by the lower pupil (Truthwatchers). The Stormfather basically is Honor, so it would make sense for the order opposite the Bondsmiths to basically be like Cultivation. I wouldn't be surprised if the Truthwatchers were the most Cultivation-y of the Orders.

I see the top of the Surgebinding chart as representing the more "honory" of the Honor-Cultivation spren (those linked to the male Heralds) and the bottom of the chart representing the more "cultivationy" Nahel bond spren (those linked to the female Heralds). 

 

I can't tell whether the vertical placement or the angle from the center indicates more of one than the other.  The Stormfather is clearly almost all Honor, but is Syl equally Honor or more Cultivation?  Likewise, the lightspren (Glys and Ym's), the Cryptics and the vinespren (Wyndle) are likely almost all Cultivation. The Truthwatchers apparently can see the future, which Cultivation is better at than Honor, by Tanavast's own admission.

 

I feel more confident that the Willshaper and Skybreaker spren are mixed leaning toward Honor.  Similarly, I imagine the Elsecaller (Ivory) and Dustbringer spren are mixed, leaning toward Cultivation.  

 

WoB is that there are Adonalsium spren that are splinters also, so there are Adonalsium spren in the mix.  Apparently after Honor was splintered, spren became much more plentiful, providing a release for investiture.  Does that make these Honor-spren, or are they sort of random and unaligned?

 

Supporting quotes below:

Interview: Mar 17th, 2012Question

A question related to that. There’s an idea going around that all the spren that can Nahel Bond, all Knight Radiant spren are called honorspren, and then Nohadon talks specifically about honorspren. Is that the case? You know, is it just the Windrunner spren, or is it all the spren?

Brandon Sanderson

I’m going to deal with this in the next book. So I’ll just go ahead and let it be a literal RAFO. It is coming.

(interruption, leading Brandon to lose his train of thought)

So what we are dealing with here is that all Spren are indeed all pieces of the one who has gone, so those spren are all- except the Windrunner spren, the spren like Syl, have certain umm.

ZAS

Nohadon mentioned that "All the spren aren’t as discerning as honorspren."

BRANDON SANDERSON

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them.  And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).

From the Seattle signing for Steelheart - Brandon is A:

Wetlander: So is that like the mists and the Well?  Are they…

 

A: They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness.  But, the Seons are self-aware.  So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there.  Those were already splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own.  So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense?  You have seen other splinters.

Edited by hoser
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