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Can Shards be harmed or splintered through conventional means?


Fanghur Rahl

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Probably another question that we’ll never get any kind of canonical answer to, but I was wondering whether or not it would at least in principle be possible to damage or even splinter a Shard using what might be called ‘conventional’ means? For example, Brandon has said that the island Patji on First of the Sun is in some sense a Shard, presumably one of Autonomy’s avatars. So what would happen if you physically obliterated the whole island? If the Ones Above for whatever reason decided to drop a micro quantum buster on it or something.

Or probably more reasonably, if you somehow managed to catch a Shard’s physical manifestation (which incidentally is what the term ‘avatar’ probably should actually mean in this context) by surprise. If Szeth managed to impale Odium’s ‘avatar’ with Nightblood or a Shardblade, or again someone just dropped a doomsday bomb on it. 
 
Is it possible for a purely physical attack of any kind to harm a Shard, do we think? Or is it an “only a god can kill another god” type of situation?
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I don't think so. The physical representations aren't really their body any more, just a projection. They transcend all three Realms, but their body/power/existence is mostly Spiritual. You'd have to reach there in order to truly damage them.

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I think it possible to destroy a place where the Shard's Investiture pools in the Physical Realm. We've already seen this happen when Kelsier destroyed the Pits of Hathsin. I suppose the Ones Above could carpet bomb Patji and destroy the worms that grant powers to the Aviars or whatever. I assume that there would be ramifications in all 3 Realms, as Kelsier's actions made Ruin's Perpendicularity unusable. But I'm not sure that a Vessel can be damaged but even if it were possible, that can only be a small portion of the Shard. It wouldn't be enough to shatter the Shard; the Shard would just look for another sapient mind to direct and shape its Intent.

Destroying a Shard has to be an order of magnitude more difficult. Most of a Shard's power resides in the Spiritual Realm; the only people we know of that have ever been there are dead people and deities. So, to actually shatter the Shard one would have to first get to the Spiritual Realm alive. Then they have to figure out how to bring something with them. Then they have to figure out how to navigate in a place where all places and times are one place and all times. Then they would have to identify exactly which shard they want to break. Next, find that particular Shard, difficult indeed since they know how to move in that place better than you would and will probably see you coming from a mile away. Lastly, there are plenty of weapons that can harm a Physical entity. We have in-world examples of weapons that can strike cognitive entities. Shardblades and Nightblood come to mind immediately. But what kind of weapons can kill a spiritual entity? Adonalasium was shattered so I assume they exist. But the only ones who know the making of such an item presumably have enough intelligent self-interest to keep the blueprints to themselves. At any rate I wouldn't consider that item as 'convetional means' anyway.

And even if one were to succeed, like say I shattered Autonomy for instance. Even were I to succeed the power will still be there. Investiture, like matter or energy, can only be changed, not destroyed. A lot of effort expended for very little gain unless one replaces the Vessel. I kill Badvadin to become Badvadin.

Edited by Bigmikey357
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The thing is, when it comes to a Shard, it’s not so much how much power they have than how much they can take out at once.

So, while I agree with RShara in that ‘conventional’ means would probably do next to nothing to a Shard (since it’s a projection), you’ve brought up Nightblood, who I believe is a special case.

Now, even though Nightblood wouldn’t be counted ‘conventional’ by me, you have to understand that since Nightblood cuts through all three Realms abd actually eats Investiture, he actually is doing damage on a spiritual level.

Another thigh you’d need to understand is that any physical manifestation of a Shard’s power is probably an atom in the bucket compared to their real power. So while Nightblood may be able to take away some of a Shard’s  power forever, it won’t matter.

There’s the fact that a WoB sas that Shard’s has infinite power, and that the rate of drawing that power is what limits them, so realistically, any attack, however spiritually damaging, won’t matter because the Shard will always have Infinity.

In conclusion, no. :)

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If a Shard has infinite power then how did Preservation end up ‘weaker’ than Ruin by giving his humans sentience and remain that way even after having thousands of years to ‘call’ more if its power to it? Infinity divided by or minus anything is still infinity. So that WOB would seem to lead to some continuity issues.

At any rate, my thinking is that while the Shards are post-physical beings, they technically do still have a physical aspect, otherwise they wouldn’t be able to interact with the physical realm. So it seems that if they concentrated enough of that aspect in one place, they should in theory make themselves more vulnerable to an albeit ludicrously powerful physical assault; maybe it couldn’t kill them outright, but perhaps at least temporarily weaken their connection to the physical realm.

Like if in Mistborn Era 4 a Shard invests most of itself into a star like Autonomy (or an aspect of Autonomy) has in the Taldain system, and the Ones Above use some weapon like Peter F. Hamilton’s nova bombs on the star, which effectively convert most of the center mass of the star directly to energy, setting aside the fact that this would probably make even the largest hypernovas look like less than firecrackers by comparison and sterilize the entire Cosmere galaxy, I’d have to think that at the very least the Shard would be affected in some way (obviously I don’t think anything remotely likely this is actually going to happen; this is purely meant as a hypothetical). Kind of like how Ruin was temporarily weakened by Elend and the others burning up all the Atium, only taken up a few orders of magnitude.

Edited by Fanghur Rahl
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Depends on the definition of "Conventional Means" 

If you mean via Physical Attacks, then: If a shard Invested in any physical object (including a planet) and that Physical Aspect were damaged enough (Space-Age world-breaker super-cannons...That totally arent Moons) it would similarly damage the invested Shard(s). 

If you mean "With attacks on the scale of a single living , non-shardic individual" then probably not unless you can manage to weaken/distract them enough to Somehow (via severe shenanigans) access their original body (which technically still exists so could theoretically be made/forced/tricked into manifesting).

If you mean a more general can you "Punch them in the Face", Kelsier managed it, but things were situationally helpful in several ways...

If you mean with Chechov's Swords aka Nightblood, then yes most likely, because I think that's his whole narrative purpose. 

 

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5 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

 

If a Shard has infinite power then how did Preservation end up ‘weaker’ than Ruin by giving his humans sentience and remain that way even after having thousands of years to ‘call’ more if its power to it? Infinity divided by or minus anything is still infinity. So that WOB would seem to lead to some continuity issues.

 

This is the WoB I was referring to, I believe it answers your question.

Spoiler

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8702

Edited by I think I am here.
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7 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Depends on the definition of "Conventional Means" 

Yeah, I guess a weapon capable of making a star go supernova in moments or effectively turning an entire planet into equal parts matter and antimatter hardly qualifies as ‘conventional’ by most definitions. But hey, desperate times, right? lol.

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I think It's possible. I doubt that someone could punch a shard in the face enough times to kill it, but with nightblood things get trickier. I'm pretty sure we have WoB confirmation the night blood actually destroys investiture. So If a shard was stabbed with that enough times, or held it for long enough, the investiture of that shard would eventually be completely destroyed

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6 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Yeah, I guess a weapon capable of making a star go supernova in moments or effectively turning an entire planet into equal parts matter and antimatter hardly qualifies as ‘conventional’ by most definitions. But hey, desperate times, right? lol.

haha, ya.  Though with Scadrial going full Space-fairing, Death Starts arent out of the realm of possibility, and it could technically be called conventional in the sense of a purely physical attack, rather than some sort of Realmic Investiture magic black whole weapon. Which we totally havent seen on stage and heard snark from...

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13 minutes ago, Nohadon said:

I think It's possible. I doubt that someone could punch a shard in the face enough times to kill it, but with nightblood things get trickier. I'm pretty sure we have WoB confirmation the night blood actually destroys investiture. So If a shard was stabbed with that enough times, or held it for long enough, the investiture of that shard would eventually be completely destroyed

I don’t think it actually destroys Investiture, since Brandon has said that like energy Investiture is never created or destroyed. I think Nightblood just absorbs it, utilizes it to power itself, and in so doing renders it incapable of doing any more work.

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Investiture cannot be destroyed. What Nightblood eats eventuality returns to the system. 

The things it eats are destroyed. The investiture is not. 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Does Nightblood annihilate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Investiture cannot be created or destroyed. It can only change forms. But, anything more than that is a RAFO.

source

Additionally, not even Nightblood is not capable of killing a Shard. 

Quote

Argent

Can Nightblood damage or kill a Shard? Is he that powerful?

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood is not powerful enough for-- *makes weird/hesitant ehhh sound*

Argent

Can it damage?

Brandon Sanderson

Damage? Yes. How damaging? Is a subject to discussion. Nightblood contains a lot of Investiture.

source

As far as my opinion. Destroying the matter into which a Shard is invested should just release that investiture back to it. 

Killing a Shard by any physical means is just inconceivable. Even in the case of Nightblood being able to damage a Shard... You still have to hit them with it. Good luck with that. 

Edited by Calderis
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9 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

I don’t think it actually destroys Investiture, since Brandon has said that like energy Investiture is never created or destroyed. I think Nightblood just absorbs it, utilizes it to power itself, and in so doing renders it incapable of doing any more work.

That's correct, or at least that's how Im reading this WOB, though there's another more general WOB that says he any "destroyed" Investiture goes back to the spiritual (end negative style like hemalurgy, I think). so that could be what's happening with Nightblood.  Or it could be some combination, where he's getting his own spiritual realm store of associated Investiture like a Shard does

 
Quote

 

uchoo786

So just for clarification, once Nightblood consumes investiture, that investiture gets recycled? That's what I've always assumed. That it enters the cognitive/spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson

The investiture he consumes is not gone forever--it's not leaving the system, so to speak.

source

 

 
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7 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

What about in the case of Elend weakening Ruin by destroying all the stockpiled Atium? 

Two points. 

First, that was not just invested matter, that was Ruin's investiture made physical. That's a very specific thing, not quite the same and it still didn't "hurt" Ruin, even if that being separated weakened the available power he could wield in the Physical Realm. 

Second, the power wasn't destroyed. It was put back into the system, but whatever set-up had been created to form the atium with the pits held that somehow separated from Ruin. (this, honestly, bothers me a bit. I think burning it should have just sent the power back to Ruin and the pits somehow syphoned power away from him a bit at a time... But that's not how the story shows it) 

Edited by Calderis
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That’s one of the reasons I very much dislike the claim of Shards having infinite power; if it has any truth at all, it may as well not since having power it’s impossible to use is functionally equivalent to not having it at all. The way I interpreted it was that burning the Atium rendered that Investiture unusable, either by sending it back to the Spiritual Realm or the Beyond to eventually be restored, or just the equivalent of the 2nd law of thermodynamics with respect to Investiture. Either way, it did clearly weaken Ruin to some extent, or at least make him unable to get to full power.

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Well, it may have just been put somewhere in the Spiritual that Ruin was unaware of. That whole sphere of influence thing is a major factor. 

Shards can't use investiture beyond their limited scope. We've been down this road before... But the difference is according to WoBs, that the Shards being infinite doesn't translate to the Vessels being infinite. 

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On 9/8/2018 at 5:12 AM, Fanghur Rahl said:

If a Shard has infinite power then how did Preservation end up ‘weaker’ than Ruin by giving his humans sentience and remain that way even after having thousands of years to ‘call’ more if its power to it? Infinity divided by or minus anything is still infinity. So that WOB would seem to lead to some continuity issues.

There are multiple types of infinities (see Cardinality).  
Additionally the Shards only have access to the Investiture that they're aware of (which is less than the whole, but still infinite).  

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4 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

There are multiple types of infinities (see Cardinality).  
Additionally the Shards only have access to the Investiture that they're aware of (which is less than the whole, but still infinite).  

I know. A Shard only has access to a finite amount of Investiture at any given moment due to the limitations of their finite minds; their minds only have a limited range of awareness. That’s why I think it’s extremely misleading to say that Shards are infinite; it’s a little like saying that I have access to infinite material, since if I went anywhere in the universe, I could use the material there while I was there. That doesn’t mean I currently am able to use the material over on Proxima Centauri b though. So if it’s true, it isn’t true in the way anyone would assume if you told them a Shard has infinite power.

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3 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

I know. A Shard only has access to a finite amount of Investiture at any given moment due to the limitations of their finite minds; their minds only have a limited range of awareness. That’s why I think it’s extremely misleading to say that Shards are infinite; it’s a little like saying that I have access to infinite material, since if I went anywhere in the universe, I could use the material there while I was there. That doesn’t mean I currently am able to use the material over on Proxima Centauri b though. So if it’s true, it isn’t true in the way anyone would assume if you told them a Shard has infinite power.

My point was that just because they have access to only a portion of their infinite power, doesn't mean that that portion can't also be infinite.  Have we ever seen a Shard be limited by their available Investiture?  I think that creating entire solar systems from scratch would match up with anyone's idea of infinite power.  

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47 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Yes. Preservation. Ruin had more power than Preservation because Preservation gave more of his power to give humans sentience. 

I think the point he was trying to make was that we have not seen an unopposed Shard by incapable of doing anything due to lack of Investiture.

Ruin couldn't just destroy Scadrial because he was separated from his power and therefore unable to overcome Preservation's opposition.

If Preservation had not been opposing him, Ruin's separation from Atium would not have prevented him destroying Scadrial.

So it would be accurate to say that we have never seen a shard be incapable of anything, regardless of the amount of power available to them, unless directly opposed by another Shard.

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54 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

I think the point he was trying to make was that we have not seen an unopposed Shard by incapable of doing anything due to lack of Investiture.

Ruin couldn't just destroy Scadrial because he was separated from his power and therefore unable to overcome Preservation's opposition.

If Preservation had not been opposing him, Ruin's separation from Atium would not have prevented him destroying Scadrial.

So it would be accurate to say that we have never seen a shard be incapable of anything, regardless of the amount of power available to them, unless directly opposed by another Shard.

Yes, that was the implied caveat.  

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