Planned "Last" Desolation

[Ripheus23]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

But I do want him to be flawed. Because people are flawed. Flaws make a character stronger. More relatable. More believable.

IDK, maybe I'm not so... IDK. I think it's fine if there are multiple super-good characters. There have been multiple super-good people IRL, I believe. If we think it's unbelievable, maybe we have too harsh a standard of goodness? But anyway, we have multiple super-evil/super-negative characters (the Lord Ruler, Ruin, the Citizen, Zane, Amaram, Sadeas, Rayse, others I've probably forgotten from MBE2 or elsewhere) so why not just as many antitheses?

The other point I would make is "able to resist millennia of torture" does not a saint a person make, or at least if that's his only example of a saintly trait, Taln still has plenty of room for flaws and so on.

EDIT: This is totally hypothetical and probably has no bearing on Taln, but let's suppose a person fluctuated between pain asymbolic and normal. Then they might periodically feel massive pain and at other points would notice the abstract sensation but minus the urge to move away from the cause of the pain. If someone resisted mass torture using such a process, they wouldn't even have to be that much of a pain-saint at all.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Ripheus23

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

There have been multiple super-good people IRL, I believe. If we think it's unbelievable, maybe we have too harsh a standard of goodness?

History may change it so that great people were flawless paragons, but what made them great was doing good in spite of their flaws. In my mind, that's what makes them good to begin with. If someone always knows the right thing, always feels benevolent, is never tempted or never jealous or, or... Everything about any struggle they face will always be external. There's no conflict. No difficult choices. No questions. 

2 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

we have multiple super-evil/super-negative characters (the Lord Ruler, Ruin, the Citizen, Zane, Amaram, Sadeas, Rayse

Mistborn spoilers 

Spoiler

TLR: a selfish man who still worked to fight against a greater evil and worked to ensure people would survive even if he failed. 

Ruin: Was in no way human any longer. 

The Citizen: Manipulated by Ruin. 

Zane: Mentally unstable, manipulated by Ruin, and arguably the worst character Brandon's written. 

Amaram: A zealot whose faith was shattered.

Sadeas: No arguments. 

Rayse: Not gone to the extent of Ruin but still a Vessel twisted by their intent and, by their nature, I don't hold them to the same standards. 

And in every o e of these instances, they made for complex characters with internal conflicts and subtle motivations that made them interesting to read. 

2 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

The other point I would make is "able to resist millennia of torture" does not a saint a person make, or at least if that's his only example of a saintly trait, Taln still has plenty of room for flaws and so on.

If that's it that fine. As long as there's more to the character than just these wonderfully benevolent messiah figure. I want a character that can surprise me. Yes, the reveal when he was lucid was surprising in itself, and that was good. I just don't feel it bodes well for continued interest. 

And the biggest point though, that's not even related to the rest of this discussion, if he didn't break then why is he so broken?

Edit: Let me put it this way. An evil character is someone who succumbed to their flaws. A good character is a character who, at least to some extent, overcomes their flaws... A flawless character is someone who never has a chance to turn into an evil character to begin with. Why should I care that they're "good?" 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Calderis

[Storyspren]

I think they have to be caught before they get tortured and break. Taln might just be excellent at hiding.

[Lirin's hand]

4 hours ago, Storyspren said:

I think they have to be caught before they get tortured and break. Taln might just be excellent at hiding.

We have a new champion...

 Finally de-throned!

Edited September 10, 2018 by Lirin's hand

[dbulick]

On 9/7/2018 at 4:54 PM, Calderis said:

OK. That right there, is exactly my issue with Taln. 

As presented he's perfect. Perfect characters are boring. I would like to believe that that's not what we're getting, because it's just... Not interesting.

Edit: and again, if that's the case, why is he broken to the point of literally being unable to function? 

What is more awesome than a man holding out against unspeakable torture for as long as he did?  Torture is not perfect, you can torture someone who did nothing wrong and they will eventually confess to whatever it is they think you want them to know.  Taln was a beast, now he is presented as a shell of his former self.  For the narrative it doesn't matter as much what he WAS, but what he IS now.  If he is going to play much of a role going forward I would say he is super flawed.