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MasterK-Bob

Can a scadrian be both a mistborn and a ferring?

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Okay, so we know that Ferrings come from the mixing of allomancy genes and feruchemist genes, which result in the possibility of a single feruchemical power instead of the full set, just like you can the full allomantic suite, or just one power. What I don't know is the full effects of that mixing--if someone was a full mistborn, by inheritance and not Lerasium, and they also inherited feruchemical genes, would they necessarily be fullborn, because they didn't have the gene set for one allomantic ability to affect the feruchemical inheritance, or would it possible for someone just to be a mistborn and a gold feruchemist, for instance? Or vice versa--could someone be a full feruchemist and a misting, or would their being a misting prevent them from being a full feruchemist and they would just end up twinborn?

I presume if someone was just a ferring, or just a twinborn, and then consumed Lersasium, they would become mistborn, and would keep their one feruchemical ability, but wouldn't become fullborn, but maybe they would? And/or maybe the one allomantic ability they already had would be supercharged like vin with bronze, albeit in a different way?

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I think that if you are a misting and you consume lerasium, your one allomantic power is boosted. Could be wrong about that though - there are people who think that it overwrites your spiritweb, which would result in no net change to that power.

Otherwise, I don't see any reason why becoming full mistborn would stop you from being a ferring, or vice versa, in any combination. We know that you can mix magic systems (hoid) and I don't think that feruchemy and allomancy 'take up' the same space in your spirit web, so to speak.

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Lerasium is additive. If you're a Mistborn you become a stronger Mistborn. 

A Misting you'd be stronger in the one allomantic power. 

A Ferring would keep that ability, and their Feruchemy would be uneffected. 

Quote

Shardlet

If Vin and Elend hypothetically each blindly ingested equivalently sized beads of lerasium, would Vin be a stronger Mistborn than Elend, or would they be equal?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Vin would be stronger. It is additive, not just an overwrite.

source

 

Edited by Calderis
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Brandon's said that the Allomantic gene interferes with the Feruchemical gene, and that's why there are Ferrings now, so I would imagine the same thing happens in reverse--the Feruchemical gene interferes with the Allomantic gene, making it unlikely for a person to be a Mistborn and Ferring. If a Ferring were to ingest lerasium, or receive the appropriate spikes, then yeah, they should be able to become Mistborn and a Ferring.

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I'm not positive I agree with all the perspectives on Lerasium here, though I will accept that it's additive. Let's leave Lerasium aside for a second though. Could someone be a mistborn through inheritance, and a ferring, or would the genes from allomancy that allow for mistings mean that if someone also inherited feruchemy, they would necessarily also be a full feruchemist?

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The genes interfere with each other. 

To that extent I think that being a Feruchemist, not a Ferring but a full feruchemist, and Mistborn are usually going to be exclusive, unless there is is a remarkably uncommon balance of spiritual genetics or tampering in the way of lerasium given to a feruchemist or what Rashek did with the Well. 

I don't think a natural Fullborn is possible. 

In itself I think being a Twinborn is rare, requires a very narrow balance of genetics, and about as strong as your likely to get with both naturally. 

I think that a Mistborn/Feruchemist is going to be inherently tied to the one system strong enough to suppress the other. 

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Calderas, I think I read the opposite into ideas of the interaction of allomancy and feruchemy genes--not that they interfere with one another, but whatever it is that allows for people to become mistings much more frequently than being a full mistborn was not present in the Terris genepool prior to the final ascension, which is why all feruchemists to that point had been full feruchemists and it was only the interbreeding of the Terris and the portion of the population who had allomancy genes that introduced this selectivity that accompanied allomancy. I didn't think there was system interference between allomancy and feruchemy. Is there a WOB that says it's system interference rather than whatever genes that allow for mistings instead of mistborn?

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56 minutes ago, MasterK-Bob said:

Calderas, I think I read the opposite into ideas of the interaction of allomancy and feruchemy genes--not that they interfere with one another, but whatever it is that allows for people to become mistings much more frequently than being a full mistborn was not present in the Terris genepool prior to the final ascension, which is why all feruchemists to that point had been full feruchemists and it was only the interbreeding of the Terris and the portion of the population who had allomancy genes that introduced this selectivity that accompanied allomancy. I didn't think there was system interference between allomancy and feruchemy. Is there a WOB that says it's system interference rather than whatever genes that allow for mistings instead of mistborn?

 

The genes interfere with each other:

Quote

Travyl (paraphrased)

Why do the Twinborn in Alloy of Law have only one feruchemical power, when all previous feruchemists, in spite of breeding programs, could use all the metals? 

WetlanderNW (paraphrased)

Or were Ferrings always part of the system and we just didn't meet them in Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Ferrings are a new development since Mistborn, as the Feruchemists have been interbreeding with the Allomancers. Basically, the Allomancy genes interfere with the Feruchemistry genes, breaking it down and creating the limitations we see in Alloy of Law.

Footnote: Brandon's response was very enthusiastic. He noted how perceptive the question was, and obviously enjoyed the discussion. The reporter was expressed their regret at lack of a audio recording to share his enthusiasm.
source
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From another thread. 

Quote

Windrunner

Is it is even possible for a full Feruchemist Mistborn to be naturally born, or will the genes for the two interfere with one another too much?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible, but highly unlikely.

source

So it appears my assumption was incorrect, though the chances are stupidly low. 

Thanks @Govir

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On 9/6/2018 at 4:10 PM, Scion of the Mists said:

 

The genes interfere with each other:

Yes, the selective allomancy genes that allow for Mistings, and not just full mistborn, interfere with the full feruchemist genes. Not the genes for allomancy per se, but the allomancy genes that cause most allomancers to be mistings rather than mistborn. Maybe we need a punnit square of allomancy, though I'm not sure if Brandon has fully worked this out. Maybe there is the possibility of a lack of allomancy genes, or a limiting allomancy gene which doesn't grant allomancy, but says if you have a mistborn gene, you only get one ability, which would then get expressed based on a whole bunch of other things in your genome, then also just dominant allomancy genes that give you misting status if you have one, but don't interfere with Mistborn genes, and then Mistborn genes, which entered the population via Lerasium altering a person, their biology, and their Spirit Web.Then there are feruchemy genes, which we know MUST be recessive, because the Lord Ruler turned all Feruchemists into mistwraiths, and yet the trait survive. The limiting alomancy gene is the thing that didn't exist in the Terris population, and its effect is unknown, but I would suggest that, since it limits mistborn allomancy to one power, the one power thing actually interacts with the feruchemy giving one power. We know the Lord Ruler altered the Skaa so that there would be no Skaa mistings, and prior to that, 1/16 of everybody would be mistings and there would be no mistborn (I think that's right). Perhaps the Lord Ruler eliminated all misting genes from the Skaa and replaced them with limiting allomancy genes, making mistborn ever coming from the skaa much more unlikely, and perhaps renders regular allomancy genes nil to prevent the likelihood even of skaa mistings after interbreeding. I guess the regular allomancy gene could also interefere, but positively, since it is a one power gene, rendering someone with both a twinborn.

Call the genes:

A=allomancy--a dominant gene giving anyone with it allomancy

L=limiting--a partially dominant gene created by the Lord Ruler when he ascended rendering anyone with a Mistborn gene merely a Misting and, perhaps, anyone with a normal allomancy gene, a non-allomancer.

M=Mistborn--A dominant gene rendering anyone with it a mistborn unless an L gene is also present.

F=Feruchemy--a recessive gene rendering anyone with both a full feruchemist, but doing nothing at all unless both genes are present.

N=Nil--this gene would have no influence on allomancy or feruchemy.

So the combinations would be:

AA=Misting with children guaranteed to also have misting genes.

AL=Maybe a misting, maybe nothing if L fully suppresses non-mistborn allomantic genes (I think more likely).

AM=A Mistborn

AF=I think here we get real direct intereference between one-power allomancy and feruchemy. I think this would be a twinborn.

AN=A Misting

LL=Nothing, but with very low chances of having an allomancer child.

LM=A Misting with suppressed Mistborn genes.

LF=A Ferring

LN=No power, with a lower than average chance of having allomancer children even if the other parent has allomancy genes.

MM=A Mistborn, with very high likelihood of Mistborn children, and a guarantee of allomancer Children. I believe that these are the genetically altered genes of a Lerasium Mistborn, though I don't think the double M is the reason Lerasium mistborns are more powerful, rather I think it's the more direct link between their spirit-webs and preservation that came with Lerarium.

MF=A Fullborn (which we know must be possible because the Lord Ruler was terrified of the possibility--it was most of the reason for his doing terrible things to his own people, so the M all power element must interact with the F like the A single power element would, but to create a cullborn.)

MN=A Mistborn

FF=A full feruchemist with guaranteed feruchemist gene carrier children.

FN=A feruchemical gene carrier with no powers.

NN=nothing.

I would suggest that Harmony altered the L gene so that it no longer suppressed the A gene, just limited the M gene so it acted like the A gene, and also limited the F gene the same way, which harmony didn't have a problem with because he was concerned about anyone being too powerful except Spook, whom he had basically appointed ruler. He also might have altered the A gene itself so that it did interfere with the F gene, which allowed for twinborn, prior to this, it might have been possible to have a misting full feruchemist, or perhaps the genes interfered with one another another way, so that either the Allomancy gene or the Feruchemy gene would be selected based on other genes that otherwise did not affect the metallic arts and only would have come into play in this strange situation.

With respect to proportion of the population with each gene--prior to the Lord Ruler's ascension, 1/16 of all metalic arts genes in the non-Terris population were A, and all others were N. Within the Terris population, we don't know what percent of the population were Feruchemists, but the F gene seems really common the Terris community is Era 2, so I would say maybe 1/4 of all Terris had an F gene? The Lord Ruler would have transformed all A genes in the skaa population into L genes, and skaa were probably 80-90% of the population, let's settle on 85%?

85/100X 1/16=85/1600, 85/100X15/16=1275/1600, 15/100X1/16=15/1600, 15/100X15/16=225/1600. The final result would be about 5.3% L genes, about .9% A genes, and about 93% N genes. Add to that a negligible maybe 20 MM people at the beginning, whose kids with nobles are almost certain to be mistborn, but then take into account increased skaa fertility and decreased noble fertility to spread the L gene more than the A gene or the M gene. It's basically a big mess. Add in the Terris and it's a bigger mess, and I've probably oversimplified the situation and got a bunch wrong, but I think that something like this is what's happening. It all has to work out so that by the time of the death of the Lord Ruler, everything is back to about 1/16th of the skaa population having A genes. Maybe preservation actually, with the remnants of his consciousness, altered the L genes so they no longer suppressed A, and altered the L and N genes of the skaa so that exactly 1/16th  of the unsnapped were altered to have 1 A gene.

 

 

 

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Well... The issue there I that we know nothing about how sDNA is passed on, and it is not identical to standard DNA. 

This is a Spiritual trait, not physical. For example, two so others aren't any more likely to get a soother child than two Coinshots.

Quote

jmass12

Quick question on genetics and investiture on Scadrial. Is it weird that Wax would have a different Allomantic power than his predecessors, or does it only matter that you have the ability in the first place, and then it takes different forms generation to generation?

Brandon Sanderson

Great question! I don't think anyone has asked it.

It is the second of your two theories. The power manifests differently in different people; specific powers are not hereditary.

source
Quote

PrncRny (paraphrased)

Is an Snapped Allomancer more likely to pass on the Allomantic ability than an UnSnapped one?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not necessarily.

PrncRny (paraphrased)

I asked if it was pure genetics, then.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He initially said yes, then appended that with "not just genetics. there's a Spiritual aspect to it as well."

source

 

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Well... The issue there I that we know nothing about how sDNA is passed on, and it is not identical to standard DNA. 

This is a Spiritual trait, not physical. For example, two so others aren't any more likely to get a soother child than two Coinshots.

 

Absolutely, but I think the spiritual aspect is what determines, once someone has the connection to preservation to be a misting because it is inherited via regular old DNA, which might itself correspond to some cognitive or spiritual reality, but that's not really the point, something about your spirit-web determines which allomantic ability you get, unless you're mistborn. That's what I think Brandon meant--being a misting a genetic, or at least being snappable is, and something about your spirit determines what you are once you snap, again, except for mistborn. I don't know whether the determination is determined at the time of snapping or what, but I kind of thing it's innate given the perfect ratios of the different mistings.

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