Could Szeth Kill Steelheart?

[Moash]

There is one spoiler for WoR ahead regarding The Assassin In White so beware if you have yet to read Words of Radiance. This is a fun question I was asking myself recently. Szeth and Steelheart are obviously not part of the same universe but I was curious about ways to defeat Steelheart. If somehow they were in Roshar and Mr T ordered Szeth to kill Steelheart, would he be able to off the Epic? My reasons as to why he could are that Szeth wouldn't be as likely to fear him. Szeth wants to die, he hopes his enemies will kill him so he doesn't go into battle frightened of those who will ease his suffering. Would that be enough to harm Steelheart? With his honour blade would it pierce and harm Steelheart? I think that szeth wouldn't fear him so if he could somehow land a sneaky blow he could kill Steelheart with his blade.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Moash

[Kobold King]

1. Szeth, as you said, would not fear Steelheart. Szeth would welcome death, and would go into the fight hoping that the Epic would be strong enough to kill him.

2. Although Szeth would like for Steelheart to kill him, he's too dedicated to sabotage the mission. He would most likely ambush Steelheart during one of his "parades", likely leaving his target with burned-out eyes long before Steelheart could respond.

3. If Steelheart did see him coming, then he would probably attempt to kill Szeth with his energy bolts. Of all Steelheart's powers, these would be the most dangerous to Szeth. It is unlikely that any kind of Lashing would affect raw energy. Nonetheless, this strategy would almost certainly fail to kill Szeth, as Szeth is extraordinarily quick on his feet and skilled with Lashing himself unpredictably.

4. In close combat, Steelheart would not be capable of holding his own. From the little we've seen, Steelheart relies primarily on his own brute strength, and probably couldn't match Szeth's training in kammar.

With these points considered, it is doubtful that Steelheart could effectively combat our Truthless. Firefight, however, could be a threat to Szeth, and we really have no way of knowing whether a Shardblade could harm Nightwielder.

I've given my arguments. Before I go, however, I will briefly take up the mantle of "that guy" in order to point out that many people have not read WoR yet, and might be watching. Would you mind editing the post above to include spoiler tags concerning Szeth's Blade, for the sake of the young adults and the late readers?

[Moash]

Of course, I'll fix that right away. I wasn't really referring to szeth fighting Steelheart just if he could land some cheap blow from behind that would kill the Epic. I almost got confused there because it sounded like you were saying szeth was stronger in combat and then I remembered it's because he could harm Steelheart lol. I kind of picture this fight as a version of the limelight vs Steelheart face off except that limelight is even harder to attack and can actually deal damage. If say someone who did fear Steelheart had a shardblade and cut him with it, do you think that would pierce Steelheart but somehow not hurt him due to Steelheart not being exposed by his weakness or would it hurt him because it pierced him?

[Kobold King]

Well, to answer the question of whether a fearful man could kill Steelheart with a Shardblade, we must turn to Words of Radiance. Spoilers ahoy...

In WoR we learn that Shardblades are actually spren, dead or otherwise. So when you swing a Shardblade at Steelheart, whose fear counts? The Shardbearer's, or the spren's? If Kaladin fears Steelheart and Syl doesn't, could the two of them still kill him? What about the "dead" Shardblades, which are caught in endless cycles of agony? Could one of those pierce Steelheart, even if the Bearer was terrified? I guess what I'm saying is, Shardblades aren't just objects. They're sapient beings, and their emotions should be factored into the discussion.

[Moash]

What if Nightblood got turned on Steelheart? Nightblood hitting true evil? Actually just toss that at Steelheart and he's done for. That could be perfect perhaps and does it not just turn anything it touches to smoke or something like that? So if Steelheart were stabbed with Nightblood, could it work? Also I think it's more about the wielded of the blade because they are choosing to attack Steelheart, not the weapon they hold.

[Kobold King]

I think Nightblood would almost certainly recognize Steelheart as evil, and would cause him to kill himself. Really, Vasher or Szeth could have solved Steelheart's plotline in a fraction of the time David did...

[dyring]

it was not enough for nightblood to recognize someone for them to killthemself thou.

 

Sufficent willpower would mean you didnt. And Im not so sure nightblood would anyway. He wants to destroy evil but he generally accept others view of what that is.

And since steelheart sees himself as a god. Well, even in our world, many thinks god is who defines good. Wich would mean murder would be moral and good in god said it was.

 

Extremely hypothetical, but would seriously doubt either shardblade or nightblood would be afraid of steelheart, so he´d likely be in trouble. Ofcourse, if he knew before hand he was vulnerable, he could use those whirlwinds he picked up the gun with(and wich is propably how he flies) to hold whoever attacks him in place while he bombs them with yellow energy

Edited April 16, 2014 by dyring

[Pathfinder]

Here is another question of the nature of nightblood and evil. steelheart using his powers is what made him the person he is. Same stands with Prof, just in Prof's case he could give his power away. No one knows what kind of person steelheart was before he got his powers. So is the PERSON evil, or the powers they use? If someone found a way to control your mind and make you kill innocents, are you evil or the person making you kill people evil? Wonder how nightblood would see things in that case? Is simply the act of killing enough to be considered evil by nightblood?

[name_here]

Nightblood is pretty vague on the whole "morality" issue. If his wielder considers the target evil, that's good enough for Nightblood. He's also got an ambient field that repels some people and causes others to pick him up and use him until their lifeforce gets devoured, and I think Steelheart is susceptible to the second effect.

 

 

If say someone who did fear Steelheart had a shardblade and cut him with it, do you think that would pierce Steelheart but somehow not hurt him due to Steelheart not being exposed by his weakness or would it hurt him because it pierced him?

It would probably have no effect, either bouncing off or passing through harmlessly.A Shardblade would work on an Epic who was simply too sturdy to harm with physical force, but I don't think that's the case. As far as I can tell, Steelheart's power is that he cannot be harmed, so no attack can bypass it without invoking his weakness. In addition to raw force, he's resisted suffocation and Deathpoint's ability to instantly destroy a targeted human.

[Scriptorian]

I believe all that is required for someone to be drawn to pick up Nightblood and subsequently impale themselves is for them to not be "pure in heart", which most Epics, including Steelheart, most certainty are not. And since it pretty established that Steelheart can hurt himself, this would be a very effective way of *ahem* dispatching him.

 

Edit: This idea has almost nothing to with the OP, but I thought is was cool enough to comment upon. I suppose we didn't specify whether this is Szeth pre or post WoR...

Edited April 17, 2014 by Serendipity

[TheArcanist]

Either way, Szeth would probably kill him. It's just Pre-WOR it would've been a bit harder, while Post-WOR the answer would be as simple as tossing our happy-go-lucky-evil-killing friend at him.

[Observer]

I always took a lack of fear to mean something closer to trust, though I agree the Szeth could probably still kill him, or at the very least seriously inconvenience him in combat. I disagree, however, that the Shardblade's fear is what matters. It's not about the weapon, it has always been the wielder. Shards can't move on their own when not being held, sentient or not, and it's always been about the person firing the guns or pressing the button, never those objects themselves. I don't think this would change. Now, if Syl were to unweaponize and stick his foot the floor and kill him that way somehow, then her intent would count. As things stand, however, I think it would be the Shardbearer who matters.

[Left]

Easily. The question is how long it would take him.

[Nepene]

The honorblade is an immensely powerful weapon. It may well be able to override the protections steelheart has. It is already designed to slay magically tough individuals, voidbinders.

I'd imagine there are various tiers of invincibility in that universe. Some epics can kill other invincible epics by finding a way to breach their invincibility. A strong enough magic weapon could likely also do that.

[name_here]

The honorblade is an immensely powerful weapon. It may well be able to override the protections steelheart has. It is already designed to slay magically tough individuals, voidbinders. I'd imagine there are various tiers of invincibility in that universe. Some epics can kill other invincible epics by finding a way to breach their invincibility. A strong enough magic weapon could likely also do that.

 

I don't think that'll work on Steelheart. Nightwielder, probably, and likely a lot of other Epics considered to be invincible, but I don't think there are any flaws in Steelheart's invincibility besides his weakness. He's gotten into fights with a lot of other Epics and has been reported to survive many indirect forms of attack which would bypass simple physical resillence.

 

The only way I can see it working is if the Honorblade has enough power to simply overcome Steelheart's ability outright, putting in enough force to exhaust whatever source of energy sustains Steelheart's powers. Given the extent of his displayed powers, I doubt it's up to the task. Nightblood might have better luck, but only with a lot of Breath as fuel.

[Pathfinder]

I think part of the problem with deciding if the shardblade could kill Steelheart without needing his weakness, is at this point in time due to that we largely know NOTHING about the nature of the epics powers. All we do know (correct me if I am wrong, because I would always love to know more) is:

 

• When the calamity showed up, people started showing powers (but we don't know the cause of the calamity and thereby the nature of the ability, is it connected to the soul? is it tangible? is there a source?)
• Some epics have abilities that give them various forms of invincibility. (Can these forms be overcome without the weakness found? We don't know) 
• Finding an epic's weakness is the only known source of negating an epic's power, and thereby if they have a form of invincibility, is the only way to kill them (check mating the probability epic doesn't count, because he had no form of invincibility, his ability just made killing him VERY difficult)

Edited April 18, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[Vizier]

The character profile for Obliteration says he once heated up a High Epic (Endless Dreams, to be precise) to the point where the heat overcame the Epic's invincibility. So it is possible.

[Pathfinder]

The character profile for Obliteration says he once heated up a High Epic (Endless Dreams, to be precise) to the point where the heat overcame the Epic's invincibility. So it is possible.

What was the nature of Endless Dream's invincibility? Was it regeneration like 

Prof?

Physical immunity like Steelheart? Intangibility like Nightwielder? I haven't seen the character profiles, and David's classifications for invincibility included multiple manifestations. Hell if I recall correction, reincarnation would also count as invincibility, because the epic wouldn't stay dead. So perhaps it could have been regeneration, but the regeneration depends on having SOMETHING left to regenerate from while the heat prevented that, while Steelheart wouldn't be affected because just nothing hurts him period. Just to be clear this is all conjecture on my part, and asking you questions to learn more. Not stating to criticize, or say you are wrong. 

[adedayo.makinde]

David said no one but steelheart would have been able to kill steelheart but I have a question about that.  Did calamity cure psychopathy, because exept if I miss my guess many psychopaths don't feel fear or feel it fleetingly..those people could kill steelheart and I think he realized this and that is why he was so intent on moving from place to place.  A psychopath would not hesitate to try because it might be "fun" to do and steelheart was just full of himself enough to not want to die by "accident". 

[Pathfinder]

I think part of the problem with this, is defining what to fear steelheart means. Does it mean fearing death at his hands? Fearing his awesome might? If fearing being killed by Steelheart was the only way his invulnerability works, then there are plenty of epics with his level of invulnerability, why couldn't they kill him? 

 

Megan reincarnates so isn't afraid of death, and Prof regenerates from having his face crushed, so by that logic either of them should be able to kill Steelheart.

 

What does it mean to be without fear?

[Edgedancer]

I think part of the problem with this, is defining what to fear steelheart means. Does it mean fearing death at his hands? Fearing his awesome might? If fearing being killed by Steelheart was the only way his invulnerability works, then there are plenty of epics with his level of invulnerability, why couldn't they kill him? 

 

Megan reincarnates so isn't afraid of death, and Prof regenerates from having his face crushed, so by that logic either of them should be able to kill Steelheart.

 

What does it mean to be without fear?

Given the scene with Deathpoint it seems that the threshold seems to be as low as, I might be in trouble. Then again Szeth is pretty much insane and wants to die

WoR

at least before he got resurected, I´m not so sure on afterwards but by that point he got Nightblood and I´m not sure if Nightblood even can be afraid. Storms, the Reckonerverse would be a fieldtrip for him. So much evil to destroy.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Edgedancer

[Vizier]

What was the nature of Endless Dream's invincibility? Was it regeneration like 

Prof?

Physical immunity like Steelheart? Intangibility like Nightwielder? I haven't seen the character profiles, and David's classifications for invincibility included multiple manifestations. Hell if I recall correction, reincarnation would also count as invincibility, because the epic wouldn't stay dead. So perhaps it could have been regeneration, but the regeneration depends on having SOMETHING left to regenerate from while the heat prevented that, while Steelheart wouldn't be affected because just nothing hurts him period. Just to be clear this is all conjecture on my part, and asking you questions to learn more. Not stating to criticize, or say you are wrong.

The bio calls him 'presumed invulnerable' which, to me at least, suggests something similar to Steelheart. Unfortunately, that's all the information we have thus far on that particular Epic.

[iceblade44]

David said no one but steelheart would have been able to kill steelheart but I have a question about that.  Did calamity cure psychopathy, because exept if I miss my guess many psychopaths don't feel fear or feel it fleetingly..those people could kill steelheart and I think he realized this and that is why he was so intent on moving from place to place.  A psychopath would not hesitate to try because it might be "fun" to do and steelheart was just full of himself enough to not want to die by "accident". 

 

so if steelheart was weak against psychopaths, would that mean kelsier would be able to kill him?

[Pathfinder]

so if steelheart was weak against psychopaths, would that mean kelsier would be able to kill him?

considering there is WoB that Kelsier is a certifiable psychopath, then if steelheart is weak against psychopaths, then Kelsier would be able to kill him. 

Edited December 17, 2014 by Pathfinder

[the winter system]

Well, the only problem with all these theories about Nightblood and the Reckonerverse is that it is impossible for them to come together. Nightblood is Cosmere. Reckoner is AltUni (alternate universe).