Gavalar, Taravangian, Amaram and Secret Societies

[Savanorn]

There are a lot of duelists and most them are shardbearers. I wouldn't call Adolin's calling unusual. I guess many hotheaded young competitive lighteyes must be choosing "Dueling" as their Calling....

 

 

 

 

I don't know, Dalinar's calling is leadership and yet he was a famed duelist in his time. Callings are not regularly changed. I'm not even sure if I'm really arguing or if I'm just mentioning things...but you'd figure you'd have a decent selection of older duelists, like Aladar, if it was really that common I might be forgetting something (or someones) though.

 

Basically, a calling is what one should be, but I'm not sure it's always what one is. 

 

 

 

Not for every lighteyes, but every lighteyed kid of the 4th dahn and up must be. 4th dahn comprised about 10% of the population, so yes I would say most of them would be well trained in the matter. Besides, the swordsmasters are having the kids use wooden shardblade imitation for training.

 

 

They were the practice weapons I was referencing, and they are as close to a real shardblade as a stick figure is to a man, but do you have a source for the 10% figure? 

 

They do. We have Zahel commenting on it . Saying how unusual Renarin is, that most lighteyed kid of the proper rank are being chosen by a swordsmaster by the time they are 10.

 

I am quite sure the training they get is quite sound. Zahel must be brutal in training his "kids".

 

 

My apologies, I wasn't doubting that would you said is said in the books, but whether that is, in fact, true. 

 

Say a lighteye is trained from ten, what is the nature of this training? We've seen Renarin train, but he has a number of things available that the vast majority of lighteyes are not readily going to have, a set of Plate among them. 

 

Actually, I was mentioning Dalinar as an example to illustrate it does not mean we haven't seen Elhokar practice that he is a weakling with his weapons. I know Dalinar is a killing machine on his own. I can't believe I am actually defending Elholkar for something.

 

 

Ah, my mistake. 

 

End of the day, I can't imagine the lighteye training system is, in general, particularly efficient or as good as we've seen the Kholins do, given that the Kholin heavy infantry (which I take to be lighteyes) have a reputation for their skill....and given Szeth's comment of how a Shardbearer generally fights. 

 

Now, it's possible that a darkeye shardbearer might well be even worse that Szeth indicates, but I'm not sure it is a particularly important difference, past a point, having magical power armour and a six-foot long sword of doom makes you pretty dangerous regardless, and if you chose to sit on those laurels or grow complacent that's probably worse than merely being less experienced.

 

Thank you. 

[Aleksiel]

Alethkar is supposed to be a nation praising warfare, so they take weapon training seriously. I agree with maxal the average lighteyes from a certain dahn above gets plenty of sword practice. No matter how different a Blade is, it's closer to a sword than to a spear, so a practiced swordsman will master it faster than a spearman.

 

Kaladin talks down lighteyes about being lazy and not practicing, but he really has no idea. Until the Kholins, he'd met two citylords and a girl, so none of them practiced with a weapon for obvious reasons. The only other is Amaram and he's very skilled, so he's not just sitting around all day. Kaladin has no experience with the average lighteyes and held a horrible grudge, so he's really not someone who would know how much lighteyed men practice with the sword. We don't see almost anyone practicing during the books, so it just happens off-screen.

 

Szeth's main advantage against Shardbearers is taking them by surprise and killing them while they wonder how the heck is he walking on the wall; something that didn't seems to particularly impress or bother Gavilar, so he naturally did better, also Szeth didn't have much experience when he went after Gavilar, who was basically Szeth's first kill. Remember how Zahel said most man die on the battlefield, because they watch in awe/horror the Shardblade? Well, I think something like that happened to most men Szeth killed, also they didn't know what to expect and had no way to prepare for what he could do.

[Quiver]

I don't have much of consequence to add; honestly, I need to re-read Stormlight Archives and put together an essay or something on Amaram. For now, though, I more or less agree with Moogle; the revelation that Amaram doesn't have a good reason for what he did- that he is, effectively, a through-and-through villain- was one of my least favorite things about his role in WoR.

 

Ironically enough, it made moments where he did seem more human, like the kindness he seemed to show his servants, or his slight bashfulness over 'finding excuses to summon' his blade more interesting. I was really, really hoping he was going to be the most morally complex character in the series, the Snape, the enigma; that character who you never know whose side he is on. I was hoping that his reputation really was the truth, that he was a good man who, in a moment of weakness or pressure, made a decision; a hard decision, one that he forced himself to do...

 

But he doesn't seem that bothered by it. Which... is a shame.

 

Also, Dalinar has lousy taste in friends. First Sadeas, now Amaram? Damnation..

[king of nowhere]

 the revelation that Amaram doesn't have a good reason for what he did- that he is, effectively, a through-and-through villain- was one of my least favorite things about his role in WoR.

 

Ironically enough, it made moments where he did seem more human, like the kindness he seemed to show his servants, or his slight bashfulness over 'finding excuses to summon' his blade more interesting. I was really, really hoping he was going to be the most morally complex character in the series, the Snape, the enigma; that character who you never know whose side he is on. I was hoping that his reputation really was the truth, that he was a good man who, in a moment of weakness or pressure, made a decision; a hard decision, one that he forced himself to do...

 

But he doesn't seem that bothered by it. Which... is a shame.

 

Well, you have taravangian for that role. not every villain can be a deeply conflicted individual; nor can they be a card-carrying villain. in fact, i'd say amaram is an in-between the two extremes: conflicted enough that he is not just a villain, not enough to make him sympatetic.

 

on the discussion about skill with shards, szeth comments that most shardbearer only rely oon the weapons, but between gavilar and dalinar, he never worked in alethkar. it is possible that shardbearers elsewhere lacks the same level of training. it certainly seems most alethi shardbearers are at least competent.

also, I think when he faced dalinar seth was more dangerous than when he faced gavilar. he had lots of training slaining shardbearers or plowing through bodyguards and traps. By the way, i was mildly disappointed by dalinar's comment that even if he had been with dalinar, he could have done nothing. in the first book, i was under the impression that gavilar was a credible threat to szeth, and two like him would have definitely been dangerous.

[maxal]

I don't know, Dalinar's calling is leadership and yet he was a famed duelist in his time. Callings are not regularly changed. I'm not even sure if I'm really arguing or if I'm just mentioning things...but you'd figure you'd have a decent selection of older duelists, like Aladar, if it was really that common I might be forgetting something (or someones) though.

 

Basically, a calling is what one should be, but I'm not sure it's always what one is.

 

Well, there are quite a few other duelists mentioned in WoR when Adolin is trying to get bouts. I don't know if they all have "Dueling" as their Callings, but they seem to take it quite seriously. In fact, Adolin was heavily frown upon in WoK as he kept on refusing to duel important bouts because of his father. Do not forget they have rankings, tournaments and being made "Duelist Champion" is a great honor. I would think such a society would make "Dueling" a common calling.

 

I don't think you need to have the calling to actually duel, but someone like Adolin is expected to duel and to do good at it. Dalinar probably occasionally dueled in his time, but he probably did not take it as seriously as Adolin and his duelists fellows.

 

 

They were the practice weapons I was referencing, and they are as close to a real shardblade as a stick figure is to a man, but do you have a source for the 10% figure?

 

Yes I do. Adolin says so to Moash when he gives him the shards. Sometime along the lines as "You now rank higher than 90% of the population of Alethkar" and since becoming a shardbearer raises a person to the 4th dhan, we can extrapolate they make up about 10% of all people.

 

 

Say a lighteye is trained from ten, what is the nature of this training? We've seen Renarin train, but he has a number of things available that the vast majority of lighteyes are not readily going to have, a set of Plate among them. 

 

 

Renarin is a bad, bad, bad example. Yes he has plate, but he is also 19. He is an adult. Kids cannot train with plate because they are too small, but I suspect they do train with it from 16 and up.  Adolin got his at 16. It was available to him before (as clearly it was his heirloom), but he was not considered old enough to receive it as a gift until he turned that age or so I assumed.

 

Also, Renarin's training probably has nothing to do with real training. He is awkward and not very talented. Zahel's target is probably just to get him to defend himself conveniently such as not to get killed as opposed to a more talented trainee whom he would push more.

 

 

End of the day, I can't imagine the lighteye training system is, in general, particularly efficient or as good as we've seen the Kholins do, given that the Kholin heavy infantry (which I take to be lighteyes) have a reputation for their skill....and given Szeth's comment of how a Shardbearer generally fights. 

 

 

As I said, for me, Szeth comments means little. He is horribly biased and insane. I prefer to look at all the talented swordsmen we have encountered so far in the lighteyed population.

 

 

Alethkar is supposed to be a nation praising warfare, so they take weapon training seriously. I agree with maxal the average lighteyes from a certain dahn above gets plenty of sword practice. No matter how different a Blade is, it's closer to a sword than to a spear, so a practiced swordsman will master it faster than a spearman.

 

Kaladin talks down lighteyes about being lazy and not practicing, but he really has no idea. Until the Kholins, he'd met two citylords and a girl, so none of them practiced with a weapon for obvious reasons. The only other is Amaram and he's very skilled, so he's not just sitting around all day. Kaladin has no experience with the average lighteyes and held a horrible grudge, so he's really not someone who would know how much lighteyed men practice with the sword. We don't see almost anyone practicing during the books, so it just happens off-screen.

 

Szeth's main advantage against Shardbearers is taking them by surprise and killing them while they wonder how the heck is he walking on the wall; something that didn't seems to particularly impress or bother Gavilar, so he naturally did better, also Szeth didn't have much experience when he went after Gavilar, who was basically Szeth's first kill. Remember how Zahel said most man die on the battlefield, because they watch in awe/horror the Shardblade? Well, I think something like that happened to most men Szeth killed, also they didn't know what to expect and had no way to prepare for what he could do.

 

I agree at a 100%. Well said. I would add that Galivar most probably knew about surgebinding and may have encountered it before.

[Arondell]

Kaladin is of the 2nd nahn, a very high rank for a darkeye. I doubt him becoming a soldier would make him move up. In Shallan's flashback, we see some 1st nahn darkeyes: rich merchants.

 

I don't think the elevations for callings have any direct connection to the nahn or dahn ranks.  I think they are primarily a religious thing not a measure of societal rank in general.  Gaz at one point states he couldn't buy himself a higher rank then sixth nahn.  Strongly implying that nahn isn't a spiritual thing unlike elevations for calling.

[Savanorn]

Jezrien's beard! I just realised something. 

 

Alethi shardbeaers are still famously good, assuming Szeth had fought/seen other Bearers, they may (or may not) have been Alethi. He knows them well enough he might have thought to mention it though....they are better. It's entirely possible that a lighteye might be better trained, but an Alethi is certainly going to be. 

 

That is, most nationalities < Alethi < Kholins.

 

I'm not sure how strongly this carries over though. I'd imagine there's good, but there's also Dalinar show-them-what-shards-can-really-do good. But...I don't think anyone is really Blackthorn level.

 

 

I'll reply soon!

[Aleksiel]

also, I think when he faced dalinar seth was more dangerous than when he faced gavilar. he had lots of training slaining shardbearers or plowing through bodyguards and traps. By the way, i was mildly disappointed by dalinar's comment that even if he had been with dalinar, he could have done nothing. in the first book, i was under the impression that gavilar was a credible threat to szeth, and two like him would have definitely been dangerous.

 

Dalinar didn't witness the fight between his brother and Szeth, so he had no way of knowing Gavilar almost beat him. Yes, it's poor judgement on Dalinar's part that he didn't consider the fact Szeth didn't have that much practice six years ago, but for all Dalinar knew Szeth was a trained assassin.

 

Dalinar wouldn't have been able to save Gavilar, on that he was right. The fight ended faster than Dalinar could have went to the armory, put on his Shardplate and return to his brother. He simply didn't have that much time. Dalinar without Shardplate would have ended much like Adolin did the first time he encountered Szeth - on the ceiling, wondering how did that happen or even dead. Imagining Dalinar not only sober, but in Sharplate at the party is really unfair to him. Gavilar should have just drunk his wine and kept his mouth shut.

 

edit:

Jezrien's beard! I just realised something. 

 

Alethi shardbeaers are still famously good, assuming Szeth had fought/seen other Bearers, they may (or may not) have been Alethi. He knows them well enough he might have thought to mention it though....they are better. It's entirely possible that a lighteye might be better trained, but an Alethi is certainly going to be. 

 

That is, most nationalities < Alethi < Kholins.

 

I'm not sure how strongly this carries over though. I'd imagine there's good, but there's also Dalinar show-them-what-shards-can-really-do good. But...I don't think anyone is really Blackthorn level.

 

 

I'll reply soon!

 

The Alethi are supposed to have the best army in the world and the most Sharbearers. Of course their Shardbearers would be the best in Roshar: they were better soldiers before getting the Shards, have strong traditions, have much more opportunities to practice. In a country where there are only two Shadbearers, it's basically impossible for either of them to improve much since they can practice only with themselves and have noone to train them.

 

The Kholin army is the most disciplined one and their men practice regularly, so that's why their army was one of the strongest in Alethkarr. The average Kholin soldier would likely make a more skilled Shardbearer than the average soldier in any other army if that's what you meant.

 

However that's much more because of daily practicing and good traditions rather than a natural gift. At least we haven't seen a non-Alethi who practices as much with a weaponmaster to make a comparison. Well, except Zahel, but he has centuries of practice.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Savanorn]

Good evening!

 

Well, there are quite a few other duelists mentioned in WoR when Adolin is trying to get bouts. I don't know if they all have "Dueling" as their Callings, but they seem to take it quite seriously. In fact, Adolin was heavily frown upon in WoK as he kept on refusing to duel important bouts because of his father. Do not forget they have rankings, tournaments and being made "Duelist Champion" is a great honor. I would think such a society would make "Dueling" a common calling.

 

I don't think you need to have the calling to actually duel, but someone like Adolin is expected to duel and to do good at it. Dalinar probably occasionally dueled in his time, but he probably did not take it as seriously as Adolin and his duelists fellows.

 

 

 

I'd assume there was more at stake when Dalinar dueled, but it is referenced at least a few times. 

 

Hmmmm. 

 

What I mean is, Adolin is pretty much the best with a sword we know of. Dueling is also his specific calling, he's not terribly pious...but he does seem to train often in addition to the significant amount of battle experience he has. 

 

Considering all these things, and also that he has access to what we'd imagine to be top-of-the-line tutors. He has every reason to be the best, socio-economics, experience, etc. 

 

 

 

Yes I do. Adolin says so to Moash when he gives him the shards. Sometime along the lines as "You now rank higher than 90% of the population of Alethkar" and since becoming a shardbearer raises a person to the 4th dhan, we can extrapolate they make up about 10% of all people.

 

 

I assumed he was joking? Like, if it was 96.5% he's probably not going to say that. 

 

Renarin is a bad, bad, bad example. Yes he has plate, but he is also 19. He is an adult. Kids cannot train with plate because they are too small, but I suspect they do train with it from 16 and up.  Adolin got his at 16. It was available to him before (as clearly it was his heirloom), but he was not considered old enough to receive it as a gift until he turned that age or so I assumed.

 

Also, Renarin's training probably has nothing to do with real training. He is awkward and not very talented. Zahel's target is probably just to get him to defend himself conveniently such as not to get killed as opposed to a more talented trainee whom he would push more.

 

 

Admittedly a fair point. 

 

 

As I said, for me, Szeth comments means little. He is horribly biased and insane. I prefer to look at all the talented swordsmen we have encountered so far in the lighteyed population.

 

 

I actually laughed out loud at that, for several minutes. My roomates are confused. Thanks (not being snide)

 

Szeth is also a pretty capable fighter all-around, my impression that he is good with blade, bare hands and Surgebinding, and back then he wasn't really insane. Biased perhaps...but I don't think his bias effects this sort of thing. All-in-all I'd think him a pretty solid first hand source. 

 

A better line of argument might be to point out that against Szeth Shardplate isn't super useful, or rather it's not something that someone can rely on in the same way given the high likelihood of damage thanks to Szeth's skillset...whereas a superior swordsman doesn't have to worry about their sword shattering. That is, for an experienced fighter, I could readily imagine knowing what sort of punishment your plate can take and learning to rely on that, even get used to it, wouldn't really be a bad thing. We see this a whole bunch, both in battles with Shardbearers blocking blades with sections of armour, and even simply jumping off very tall objects. Against Szeth though, mobility is really the key. And when the shardplate starts to leak and lock, it becomes a pretty severe hindrance. 

 

I agree at a 100%. Well said. I would add that Galivar most probably knew about surgebinding and may have encountered it before.

 

 

Well...maybe in visions...almost certainly in visions really...but I don't know if he's fought anyone using it?

 

Well, you have taravangian for that role. not every villain can be a deeply conflicted individual; nor can they be a card-carrying villain. in fact, i'd say amaram is an in-between the two extremes: conflicted enough that he is not just a villain, not enough to make him sympatetic.

 

on the discussion about skill with shards, szeth comments that most shardbearer only rely oon the weapons, but between gavilar and dalinar, he never worked in alethkar. it is possible that shardbearers elsewhere lacks the same level of training. it certainly seems most alethi shardbearers are at least competent.

also, I think when he faced dalinar seth was more dangerous than when he faced gavilar. he had lots of training slaining shardbearers or plowing through bodyguards and traps. By the way, i was mildly disappointed by dalinar's comment that even if he had been with dalinar, he could have done nothing. in the first book, i was under the impression that gavilar was a credible threat to szeth, and two like him would have definitely been dangerous.

 

That's fair really, I suppose I expected more because of his intimate connection to Kaladin.

 

Fair point, I did come to this realisation in the day between, but regardless. I guess we'll shelve it. I'm not entirely convinced, in general the lighteyes just don't seem fearsome enough for lifelong warriors trained since a young age, but I also realise there's not enough evidence. Yet. For me to adequately formulate a counter.  

 

Well, I think Szeth has definitely become more deadly. As he was end of WoR, he could probably have killed them both. 

 

STORM IT ALEK, I DELETED YOUR QUOTE AND IT WON'T COME BACK.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Savanorn

[Aleksiel]

STORM IT ALEK, I DELETED YOUR QUOTE AND IT WON'T COME BACK.

 

You deleted my quote? I am offend! 

[Horatio Spifflewicket]

You deleted my quote? I am offend! 

 

And I am a Stick!

[Aleksiel]

And I am a Stick!

 

Don't let anyone convince you you're a fire!

[Savanorn]

You deleted my quote? I am offend! 

 

Hold on, I'll get my boots *grumble*

 

And I am a Stick!

 

Have you considered being something.... warmer?

Edited July 10, 2014 by Savanorn

[Horatio Spifflewicket]

...

 

Have you considered being something.... warmer?

 

 

I am a Stick! (in the sunshine).

[pdavidc222]

One secret society that appears to be overlooked, is the stone shamans of Shinovar. We never really hear from them directly, only the things that Szeth thinks about them, especially after his encounter with Kaladin on the Shattered Plains. Szeth gives us insight into the stone shamans that leads us to suspect that they remember a great deal about the KR. For one, Szeth menions that he went to Urithiru shortly after being made truthless. This means that they have known where it was located all along.

Edited July 18, 2014 by pdavidc222