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Szeth's Crusade Complication


Wreith

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Szeth has decided that, if Dalinar allows, he will "cleanse the Shin of their false leaders"

Now, we know that he was named Truthless because he made the claim that the "voidbringers" were returning.
With the Listeners and the Fused reclaiming their land, Szeth has determined that his statement was true and that the Stone Shamenate was wrong.

However, I propose that the Shamenate knew that the "Voidbringers" were, in fact, humans., and thus could not "return" because they never left; making it technically true that Szeth's claim was false.
I expect this to be a complication of his quest.



As a corollary, I believe the Shin to be a group of humans who attempted to begin following the Listener religion upon their arrival. Hence their language being included in the dawnate group, their reverence for stone and spren, and their remaining secluded in the area created for them on Roshar.
That last point requires an explanation of the Shin Conquest and possibly some explanation of why only humans lacking the epicanthic fold decided to do this.

For the Shin Conquest I'm on board with the theory that its primary purpose was to recover an honorblade or shardblade until a better theory presents itself.
For the epicanthic fold distinction, is it possible that Ashyn and Braize had distinct groups of humans and each had a cataclysm as a result of surges. Perhaps Shin are from one planet and other Rosharn humans from the other.

Thoughts?

Edited by Wreith
I had an idea for epicanthic fold issues
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Your first point makes sense from a story standpoint, and sounds like the kind of wrench or twist Brandon would throw in just to break Szeth a bit more. 

The Shamanate are still crem though. The Truthless system is a horrid thing and it is kinda stupid as well. 

Regarding the origins of the Shin, I agree in that they came from a different planet than the Ashynites, and I think they might have come before them as well. The idea about their attempts to live in the Listener tradition sounds compelling, although they have obviously developed their own cultural ideas as well, such as the Truthless system. In addition, the Shin decided to fight the Listeners at some point due to the fact that they worship the Heralds, have access to an Oathgate, and had Radiants. This doesn’t really disprove your theory though, but it might be worth mentioning.

Good job! 

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Indeed. The facts you mention had slipped my mind.

But what if Cultivation was originally on one planet and Honor the other.
If the Shin originally served Honor and then merely added Listener religious aspects to their existing beliefs the complications you bring up go away.

The idea of oathstones, their remaining in their agreed upon location, and the fact that Honor is referred to as god (Nin-son-God) support this. 
They would revere the Heralds as being close to Honor.
They would also support their original deity over the followers of newer aspects of their religion when the conflict began, thus their inclusion in the Radiants

This enhanced theory is complicated by Dalinar and Kaladin both being referred to as children of Honor, though...

edit: This would also mean that Honor and Cultivation did not originally break the Shards' agreement to isolate them selves; technically if not in spirit.
That's something that had bothered me about the shard Honor sharing a planet

Edited by Wreith
shard rules mention
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I'm thinking that Szeth's chosen crusade has many potential issues, worked right into the way he phrased it. Dalinar has to agree to it, or else Szeth needs to choose a new personal quest; that's also part of his sworn Third Ideal so even if he hadn't said that, he'd have to follow Dalinar's decision on his crusade anyways in order to keep that oath. Then there's the question of what it means to be a false leader and how he would go about 'cleansing' them, with Dalinar's approval of his methods also hanging over his head.

I'm certain there's a lot we don't know about the Shin that will complicate matters but I don't think that technicaliies surrounding what is or isn't a Voidbringer is one of them; Nale says that Szeth didn't deserve to be named Truthless and he knows the truth of the situation and has had interactions with the Stone Shamans (at least insofar as he had to go fetch his Honorblade at some point) and is pretty familiar with Szeth's specific situation.

1 hour ago, Wreith said:

For the epicanthic fold distinction, is it possible that Ashyn and Braize had distinct groups of humans and each had a cataclysm as a result of surges. Perhaps Shin are from one planet and other Rosharn humans from the other.

Brandon has said that the humans fleeing a cataclysm caused by the Surges came from Ashyn and while there was a separate migration, it was the Iriali. Odium 'followed' the humans from Ashyn.

My own guess as to what makes the Shin distinct ethnically is that rather than being a separate group of humans, they're the original Ashynate (Ashynite?) stock and all other humans were modified by Honor and Cultivation at some point. Here's my thinking: We know that the humans who arrived on Roshar were given a region of land terraformed to suit them, which we now call Shinovar. At some point these humans (or at least some of them) expanded out from the land alloted to them and in the process they began to obtain Surgebinding. We get this in both the story of the Girl Who Looked Up and the Listener Songs. At some point in this process the humans and singers essentially switched gods (and that's sure to be a story worth hearing, whenever Brandon sees fit to reveal it) and I think that's where the epicanthic fold suddenly became relevant. We've now seen all three Vessels from Dalinar's perspective and Rayse is the only one that's been noted to 'look Shin'.

My thought is that if Tanavast and Cultivation's Vessel do not 'look Shin' then what might have happened is that they modified all the humans who came over to 'their side' to look more like they did, as a sign of their covenant as it were. Hence, the humans who became 'children of Honor' were marked with the epicanthic fold that Tanavast already had. The people who became the Shin weren't initially a part of this and so they didn't get marked, though at some point they wound up largely on the side of 'Team Honor' anyways, but kept their original appearance.

We know this kind of mass modification is possible since Rashek did it to the humans of Scadrial with only part of Preservation's power and then Harmony did it en masse in the Catacendre and a minor change to the eyes would be a far simpler change than what happened on Scadrial.

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This would also mean that Honor and Cultivation did not originally break the Shards' agreement to isolate them selves; technically if not in spirit. That's something that had bothered me about the shard Honor sharing a planet

As I see it, this depends on three factors: When did the Vessels agree to isolate themselves? Exactly what was the wording of this agreement? Did those two have some promise of their own that was made beforehand?

If the agreement was made before they Ascended, it's not binding in the way that the Vessels are bound by their oaths per the Stormfather's comments. Even if it was made afterwards, the exact wording is critical because as Leras demonstrates with how he tricked Ati, loophole abuse is totally okay and what Honor/Cultivation agreed to might not be what everyone else thought they agreed to. The third point is the fallback and I don't think it's necessary but since we know the two were lovers, it's possible they had some agreement between themselves that they felt had priority over anything they promised the other Vessels.

My own guess is that the agreement to go their own ways must have been made before the sixteen Ascended since at least four other Vessels have technically broken it and that makes more sense if the agreement was done beforehand and thus not magically binding.

Edited by Weltall
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The WoBs on Ashyn and the Iriali do kill the separate human worlds portion of my theory.

So I'm left without an explanation of the epicanthic fold distinction between Shin and non-Shin.

I can agree with parts of your theory, but at this time I don't believe Odium was actually the Ashyn humans' god.
I think the Listeners just believed he was because he followed humans to Roshar proper.

Edited by Wreith
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4 minutes ago, Wreith said:

I can agree with parts of your theory, but at this time I don't believe Odium was actually the Ashyn humans' god.

I think the Listeners just believed he was because he followed humans to Roshar proper.

It's definitely a fuzzy point. Brandon has said that the singers assumed Odium was their god because he came after the humans but they didn't necessarily 'bring' him to Roshar in a literal sense. But he's also said that Odium was instrumental in what happened on Roshar and that once on Roshar the humans gave him more of an ear than the singers did at first. The humans may not have been actively worshipping him on Ashyn or shortly after their arrival on Roshar but he was definitely involved with them on some level before the migration.

But I don't think it makes too much difference to my current theory on the ethnic split between the Shin and everyone else whether humans worshipped Odium or not; the relevant factor for me isn't what the Shin believed vis a vis their gods but whether they chose to participate in the outwards expansion or not. They could have started out as a 'neutral' faction who didn't necessarily worship Odium or Honor but just didn't want to break the agreement they had with the singers vis a vis living in 'their' land. Then things spiraled out of control and they wound up on the side of Honor regardless.

Edited by Weltall
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2 minutes ago, Angsos said:

Do we actually know the Shin are Team Honor?

Nope, as far as I know we know nothing of their actual motives and very little else.  We know they have a more complete history than most, that they have a weird Truthless system, train for the eventual possibility of obtaining and/or combating surges, and that they've gots' them some honorblades.

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5 minutes ago, Angsos said:

Do we actually know the Shin are Team Honor?

Insofar as they revere the Heralds (with Szeth calling Nale the 'Son of God') and are sitting on the Honorblades, they certainly seem that way. We also know from the Aharietiam vision in Oathbringer that the Shin were fighting alongside the Heralds and against the singers and the humans allied with them at that time.

But no, we don't know their motivations for a fact.

Edited by Weltall
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4 minutes ago, Angsos said:

Do we actually know the Shin are Team Honor?

We really only technically know the concept of the oathstone from Szeth and that he has a high degree of personal honor.
Additionally the reference to Honor as God in Nin-sonGod as stated above.

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20 minutes ago, Weltall said:

At some point in this process the humans and singers essentially switched gods (and that's sure to be a story worth hearing, whenever Brandon sees fit to reveal it) and I think that's where the epicanthic fold suddenly became relevant. We've now seen all three Vessels from Dalinar's perspective and Rayse is the only one that's been noted to 'look Shin'.

I'm not sure this supports your thoughts. Because at the Battle of Thaylen Fields he appeared to the Singer army as a Singer.

Maybe he really was showing his true Vessel form to Dalinar. Maybe he's seeding in Dalinar distrust and hate for the Shin.

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There's definitely something wrong with the Shin leadership even if the average Shin doesn't know it. With all their knowledge, they must have known Szeth was telling the truth or Nale was giving them advice. The coalition is going to end up fighting the Shin until the leaders are changed at least because they're almost a complete blank for peaceful reasons is my guess

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Is there though?
In Szeth's conversation with Nale before he joins the battle, he implies that the Shin have been waiting for some event.
 

Quote

My people watched not for the return of an invading enemy, but for the masters of the house.

I think the Shin have been hording the honorblades and likely dead spren-blades and plate waiting for this battle.
I don't think there's anything wrong with them. I just think they have vastly different motives than we've assumed. 

I agree that the coalition will most likely fight them, but that doesn't affect the accuracy of Szeth's personal quest.
His stated idea (not actually spoken as his fourth ideal yet) Is to remove "false leaders".
My contention is that there aren't any that fit that description.

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This thread has reminded me of something ive been sitting on regarding the Shin and Odium.

Its slightly tangential to this thread but I think it fits..

Ive been hesitant to talk about this as I think I may be misreading. I want to point out the interaction stated above between The Shin merchant and.. Rysn and co!

I was thinking about this scene and I get the impression that The Shin appear to be kind and considerate people and it seems they lack a certain... Passion.

Im also looking at Szeths Povs in OB and he seems to have this same trait - dont get me wrong he's still a bit cracked, but not as much as the previous books and as with my postulation above, this kinda "sane" Szeth lacks that Passion we've been hearing all about. 

Im inclined to agree that the Shin definitely know more than theyre sharing and they have something going on. Considering they know more of Odium then most cultures on Roshar, it maybe they have been resisting him all this time.. 

Or..!!

Are The Shin already taken by the Void and this apparent passionlessnes is them waiting for their god to return their.. Passion!

Now I dont know what to think.. :blink:

!~ HIF ~!

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8 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

This is kinda interesting. Do you have an idea for where the different Heralds are?

Taln, Shallash, and Nale are obvious in Oathbringer
Jezrien was in Kholinar and is now dead
Ishar is the leader of Tukar, this is not-quite-explicitely confirmed in Oathbringer
Taravangian claims to have met Battar.


It is theorized that Vedel is a "nurse" helping the silent gatherers of the Diagram. I know I've seen it but I can't find it. I'll keep looking.

 

Chana:
Has been seen on screen. As stated, since no one has been to Shinovar, this means she's not there. I thought we had a guess as to who this was, but I can't find anything more concrete.

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Wetlander

Speaking of the other Prologues… I have a looney theory that the assassin Liss is actually the Herald Chana in disguise. :D

Peter Ahlstrom

Chanaranach has definitely been seen onscreen by at least one character at least one time in the first two books.

source

 

Pailiah:

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Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The old ardent in the Palanaeum is Pailiah.

source

 

Unfortunately, while forming this post, I hit a snag in Kalek.
We know he was in Kholinar for Gavilar's assassination, but not really anything before or after that, though Jasnah's observations indicate he was in Kholinar for a little while prior at least.
The only thing I have is that his comment to Nale in the prolog for WoR

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...What We've done was wrong. That creature carries my lord's own blade. We shouldn't have let him keep it...

That implies to me that he wasn't responsible for actually providing Szeth the blade, but that he noticed it and feels he should have taken it back.

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While I'm sure there will be problems with Szeth's crusade I doubt that one will be one of them. Why? Because I'm in the camp that believes that Szeth was a Stone Shaman or at least very high up in their hierarchy, which means that he knew everything that the Stone Shamans knew. Therefore, I believe if he said "the Voidbringers have returned", he had as much information on the past as the Stone Shamans did, and they understood what he meant.

As an additional point, language is a tool of communication. The words exist so that groups of people understand each other and know what they are talking about. If someone says "the sky is blue" and everyone knows what they mean, it would be pointless to say "he is lying because blue used to mean pink 5000 years ago". It is irrational and inefficient, as going down that hole means that the point of language as a way of understanding each other becomes irrelevant. Of course you could then enter a philosophical debate about whether what matters is what is said or what is meant, very Skybreaker-Windrunner :P

Edited by WhiteLeeopard
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If Szeth was a Stone Shaman and the Stone Shamans are the leaders of the Shin, then the only thing we "know" about the Shin social structure is a lie.
Szeth trained with the honorblades, but anyone who touches a sword is automatically moved to the lowest caste, Warrior.

Also, obviously, my theory requires the Shamanate to be rather technical in their interpretation of Szeth's claim.
I don't take it as given that he actually used the word "voidbringer" in his pronouncement.
Something more along the lines of "the enemies of our gods" would suffice

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I find I must unfortunately abandon a significant part of this theory.

I Words of Radians I-10 Szeth recalls the stone shamans specifically telling him that "The voidbringers are no more"
So my idea that the Shamanate is truthful but technical is wrong.

I'm still not convinced they are actively malevolent in their treatment of Szeth, but the implication that they commune with the "spirits of the stones" pushes me closer to believing they are being manipulated by something.

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I'm a little late to the party, but I thought it might be worth saying.

Perhaps we are reading too much into ethnicity... people coming from Ashyn could be a wide and varied people. Indeed, I'd argue that they should be a widely varied people. I mean, we're all from the same planet, and just look how wonderfully varied we Earth humans are. :)

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