Bigmikey357

Theory: Rock is a Lightweaver

21 posts in this topic

I was ready to be super skeptical, but you've made very good points. I hadn't even considered this, but it's an interesting idea for sure. The only other Order I could see him in, aside from Lightweavers, are the Stonewards. But the latter seems like it would be a little too on the nose, name-wise. In any case, thanks for sharing the theory!

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1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

One potential problem I see is the squire problem i.e. how can one become a Radiant of one Order if he/she is a squire of another? The counter to this is Vathah. He's Shallan's squire but he doesn't seem to be particularly artistic or lacking in self-awareness. If he were to actually become a Knight I would bet he wouldn't be a Lightweaver. There may be other possible issues with my interpretation. Feel free to pick at the theory at will.

Why couldn't he be? Best we can tell so far is that the requirements to be a squire are loyalty to a Radiant of that order (Kaladin) and desire to follow those principals, which Rock has. Hence he is a Windrunner squire.

I see no reason why the above can't be true while he better epitomises a different order and attracts that spren instead of an Honorspren.

I love the idea personally, it would be an extra dynamic within bridge 4 that could be really interesting. 

With regards to Vathah though, I see no reason why he can't be a Lightweaver, he took to spying exceptionally quickly and could have some artistic talent we have yet to see. I don't think lack of self-awareness is required to be a Lightweaver, only that high-ideal Lightweavers need to be self-aware.

An example would be Hoid, he seems to attract a Cryptic and actually tells the Cryptic that he is already self-aware enough.

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Good points, Bigmikey357. You've convinced me there.

And to be sure, cooking definitely counts as art, especially when you see the loving care and attention to detail that Rock puts into his stews. i know i couldn't be bothered to that extent, and as a stay home mum with picky kids, cooking is actually in my job description. :lol:

And for all you know, Rock may not have been a squire of Kaladin's from the beginning. For one thing i don't remember Rock flying around with the other Windrunners - he's always hanging at the side ready with his refreshments instead. He could have been surgebinding on the bond he has with his own spren, who has been very quiet so far. It's also possible that Rock has purposely kept quiet about having bonded his own - and different - spren, as he wants to continue belonging with Bridge 4. 

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16 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

With regards to Vathah though, I see no reason why he can't be a Lightweaver, he took to spying exceptionally quickly and could have some artistic talent we have yet to see.

Artistic ability also isn't a requirement. The in world Words of Radiance says that those with those talents were common amongst their numbers, but it doesn't say it was universal. 

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This could be correct.  Honestly, I grouped Rock more with Willshapers.  I think there is a certain quality to the spren (e.g. choosing Eshonai/Venli although not fully confirmed) which leads them towards unconventional/experimental decisions.  Choose a listener, then choose a listener hybrid.  However, this could be more accurate.

 

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I still think Rock fits perfectly with being a Bondsmith. That said, you made a really good job with this, and I can now see him as a Lightweaver, even if Bondsmith is my favorite theory. Upvote!

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Hi! 

Could it be also that Rock had bonded with a spren in his past, before arriving at the Shattered plains? Him lying/being secretive also fits with the Truthwatchers. 

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6 hours ago, Jace21 said:

With regards to Vathah though, I see no reason why he can't be a Lightweaver, he took to spying exceptionally quickly and could have some artistic talent we have yet to see. I don't think lack of self-awareness is required to be a Lightweaver, only that high-ideal Lightweavers need to be self-aware.

I agree with this, plus Vathah HAS exhibited usage of the surge of illumination already. He creates a disguise for himself when the innkeeper surprises him while he is looking at Shallan's drawing of the old beggar man who kept his area clean.

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1 hour ago, Juanaton said:

I agree with this, plus Vathah HAS exhibited usage of the surge of illumination already. He creates a disguise for himself when the innkeeper surprises him while he is looking at Shallan's drawing of the old beggar man who kept his area clean.

I have to reread OB. There's a ton of little details that evaded me the first time, including this one :unsure:

But I would argue that any convincing use of illumination is a pretty significant act of creation/art, just in itself.

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I think the best thing you have going for you, and in turn the biggest reason why I think you're right, and Rock is a Lightweaver, are the lies. Kaladin doesn't really lie to himself, or to others. He keeps his past to himself, but he doesn't distort or mislead. Rock, on the other hand, is full of half-truths and convenient lies. We never get a sense for how much his outer persona contradicts his inner monologue until we get his POV in Oathbringer, and then we even hear him fretting to himself about what will happen when the lies he told are uncovered.

I think Rock is a great candidate to start dropping some truths in the upcoming books. In fact, he may have already spoken one at the end of Oathbringer, which allowed him to use the Shardbow. 

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Rock is definitely a Windrunner squire and not yet drawing Stormlight from his own order. In Part 5, during the attack at Urithiru Rock is stabbed. He does not begin to heal until they get to Thaylen City and close to Kaladin. So Rock is technically not yet a Lightweaver, he will ultimately become one.

I brought in the Vathah example as a counter to a potential argument against my theory.  It was underlining a question that occurred to me during fury crafting. How does squire-ing work?  We've seen 2 Orders get squires so far. The process looks similar in both cases. However we don't know the limitations or the guidelines yet.

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@Bigmikey357

Quote

We've seen 2 Orders get squires so far. 

I recall three: skybreakers, lightweavers and windrunners

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Sorry. Forgot about them. Well in all 3 cases the process was different. For Skybreakers the process was much more formalized, Windrunner squires seem to follow a chain-of-command structure, and who-the-hell-knows what's going on with the Lightweavers. In any case we don't know what the rules are, not enough to speculate at any rate. For example, would Shallan have become Jasnah's squire if she didn't already have Pattern bonded? Does a previous bond with one Order prevent squireship in a different Order? And do Bondsmiths get squires or can the entire Knights Radiant organization be considered their squires based on the boosts Dalinar can provide to other knights (Shallan's 3D holomaps, Kaladin's Stormlight overcharge)? And does it matter if you're not a person likely to attract a spren of your own to be a candidate for squireship? Here's another example. Skar probably isn't going to be a Windrunner either, or if he becomes one he won't progress beyond the Third Ideal. Why? Because he's not comfortable being a leader. A teacher, sure, but he's the type who would rather receive a task than issue the orders. Sounds like a Stoneward more than Windrunner to me. 

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Short version of my theory on Squires is that Squires become such through nothing more than strong spiritual Connection to any given Radiant, and if that Radiant's order provides such, then that Connection gets manifested in the ability to channel the Radiant's surges, etc.  I dont really think it would mechanically cause issues with a Nahel Bond any more than a radiant wielding an Honorblade would cause issues, since I think they all use different channels/mechanisms.  The only watsonian reason Id see a Squire of one order being incapable of also being a Squire is if (either) bonded Spren objected to the arrangement.  And given the rather complex interracial relations there, who's to say. 

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I don't really see Rock as a Lightweaver. In my book, it's not just telling lies that makes you a lightweaver but repression or denial. Rock doesn't seem to be repressing anything within himself. He's just not telling other people stuff.

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Being a Lightweaver isn't about repression and denial imo. In fact it's the opposite. To advance in the Order one must become more self-aware, more truthful with yourself. The repression and denial bits are why Shallan doesn't yet have Plate despite having advanced more than Kaladin. We see in the narrative that Shallan was only able to advance because Pattern made her stop repressing her most hurtful secret and she spends the entirety of OB trying to come to grips with that truth. Rock is at the beginning of the Lightweaver progression; he has yet to come to grips with any of his lies. I expect him to shortly; Amaram with the Shardbow seems like a turning point to me.

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I hope Rock will be a Bondsmith though. There are few other good candidates (Mr T and Rlain are the only ones I can come up with for now). Someone will need to unite the Horneaters and liberate the Oathgate. And he is defenitely guiding, as seen in his POV chapter in OB. 

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11 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I hope Rock will be a Bondsmith though. There are few other good candidates (Mr T and Rlain are the only ones I can come up with for now). Someone will need to unite the Horneaters and liberate the Oathgate. And he is defenitely guiding, as seen in his POV chapter in OB. 

I know this is wild speculation, but I think this story will only have one bondsmith. And if there are more, they won't be working for team Kholin. It just seems too convenient to me for some reason, having all the super-powered perpindicularity-summoning badchulls come from the pool of people that is generally considered the protagonists.

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On 8/31/2018 at 3:56 PM, tmnsquirtle said:

I know this is wild speculation, but I think this story will only have one bondsmith. And if there are more, they won't be working for team Kholin. It just seems too convenient to me for some reason, having all the super-powered perpindicularity-summoning badchulls come from the pool of people that is generally considered the protagonists.

Not all Bondsmiths can generate perpendicularities...in fact, none before Dalinar had that ability. So I doubt any others would be able to create perpendicularities. That doesn't mean there WILL be more, just that you may have an overestimate of the power of additional Bondsmiths.

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From what we've seen so far, it has been a struggle for characters to achieve the ideals.  Even though they know they should.  Rock hasn't struggled to accept that his brothers are dead, he freely admits it.  He struggles to step up and be a leader.  I don't think Lightweaver is his order, although those are good points with the spiritual healing and sustenance.   But that is still what he wants to do, not what he knows deep down inside he has to do.  He's also not shy about protecting people, and I can't see any way he would have any problem with any version of the 3rd ideal like we saw with Kal or Teft.  But where they are both natural leaders, this seems to be where Rock is struggling.

 

What you call spiritual sustenance also brought the bridge 4 together.  Bridge 4 would have followed Kal anywhere, but they were a bunch of Individuals until Rock's cooking and beard shaving... United then.  Which order is about uniting people and their main attribute is more about maybe guiding Kal to the right choice, instead of making it himself?  Plus although he follows a different religion, Rock maybe the most pious character we have seen.

So when he goes home to the peaks to deal with whatever is wrong there, I expect he comes back with a bondsmith spren and an open perpendicularity. 

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