Odiums Passion Hack

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

Just fleshing this one out. Im not very realmatic and I think this pushes the boundaries of what we know so I thought you guys could help (expand, denounce, enjoy, etc).

To start with I want to point out the importance of perception in the Cosmere, especially where investiture is invloved. And also consider Odium has already convinced at least one civilization he is Passion - ok, talking about the Fuzed and ancient singers and I known he didnt get all of them, but they are an invested people so maybe this "hack" works better with them.. Also is this the only culture hes integrated with as "Passion" i wonder?

Now the big Q: what if Odium is using "Passion" to gain "access" to more investiture?

Now im not saying that there's no passion in hatred, but I do want to point out Passion isnt an emotion dedicated to hate alone - especially when looking at other Shards intents.

Have a look at the shards Odium has already broken and consider the potential "passion" involved with their intent.

Spoiler

Ambition

Dominion

Devotion

Honor

Hmmm, i wonder if a Vessaless shard is easier to "access"..?

Now back to the question, im not trying to suggest Odium is doing this for more power as it has been stated a few times he does not want anothers intent to influence him. Im thinking more abstractly regarding what this "access" intales.

For example if someone invokes passion it gives the big O a window to view them, and knowledge for a General in wartime is quite important.

Thats just an example, what do we think?

!~ HIF ~!

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

@Hoids Imaginary Friend I like this line of speculation a lot!
 

Shattering other shards to access the inherent passion that would have been otherwise assigned to their shard's intent, and using that passion instrumentally to fuel a minion's hatred, while consuming that minion's passion which is keyed to another shard's investiture would seem to in net terms be a true victory for the void.

This is total speculation by the way, but I really like the idea that he gets more powerful and has more means to manipulate people the more shards that he shatters.

I don't have the ebook for Oathbringer, but if someone who does could quote the bit where Dalinar see's Odium and lists all of the different forms of passion he seemingly is, that would be great. These then could be compared to the intents of the shattered shards, and connections could possibly be drawn.

What's interesting about that bit where Dalinar sees Odium's passion is that Odium is showing himself to Dalinar, so it's possibly a view that is being manipulated by Odium. But I do really like this idea and it's definitely worth some more thought.

Edited August 29, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[Bigmikey357]

Upvote from me. I like the theory and it's totally plausible even if it turns out not to be true. I'm thinking of implications involving other Shards, as in, if Odium can figure this out then can't other Shards do the same with perhaps a different hack? Rayse and Badvadin seem like buddies. I think they colluded at one point in the past according to a WOB I currently don't have access to. Maybe Baddie is using her Avatars in a similar fashion, using a different method to hack Investiture-based magics. Maybe, just maybe the two of them determined to themselves that they would be the only Vessels of the 16 left standing. Divide and Conquer. 

It's too bad that 6 Shards are left unaccounted for. Maybe we'd be able to determine if another Shard would be likely to experiment with Investiture in order to beef up their powers, either for defense against the aggressors Odium and/or Autonomy or for to just aggrandizement of their own power. I could see Ambition having plans for the latter and having been shattered by Odium was actually good for the Cosmere. I could see the shard of Ingenuity (if it indeed exists) doing the former as well.

[Naurock]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say no. The Investiture isn't keyed to Odium and he would have had to pick up the Shard (which we know he wasn't going to do) to access it. 

The Investiture left around the Cosmere by Adonalsium can have his signature in it that he can use and he can access that. But another Shard's is off limits to him. It's just free floating Investiture that may or may not have gained sentience by now or waiting to be harnessed for the local magic system. Unless if he wants to Invest in the local area and co-opt it somehow, which may not even be possible.

4 hours ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

For example if someone invokes passion it gives the big O a window to view them, and knowledge for a General in wartime is quite important.

As to viewing the locals, the Unmade are very useful to him in that regard. Why spy when he can invoke rage or distract them with their addictions and pleasures? Also, his future sight has been very useful up until now.

[goody153]

I would also say no because that would mean that Odium is special in a way that he gets investiture with more practitioners of his intent. Which other shards have shown aren't the same case and i don't think Odium is special or any shard is.

And besides we have already seen what happens with this kind of stuff in Mistborn(Spoilers All Ahead)

Spoiler

It didn't matter that people didn't know Preservation or that at era 1 i would say Ruin's intent has been practiced more than preservation but it never tipped the scale between the investiture of the two nor was it ever mentioned.

 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

4 hours ago, Naurock said:

The Investiture left around the Cosmere by Adonalsium can have his signature in it that he can use and he can access that. But another Shard's is off limits to him. It's just free floating Investiture that may or may not have gained sentience by now or waiting to be harnessed for the local magic system. Unless if he wants to Invest in the local area and co-opt it somehow, which may not even be possible.

and

3 hours ago, goody153 said:

I would also say no because that would mean that Odium is special in a way that he gets investiture with more practitioners of his intent. Which other shards have shown aren't the same case and i don't think Odium is special or any shard is.

That's the beauty part of the theory, he is using the vessels that are experiencing passion flavored by another shard to consume that power. Like a big steam engine, he is using a bunch of disposable vessels subject to multiple types of passion to shovel investiture that is not keyed to his intent into the void. This is pretty freaking rad in that he is burning the candle at both ends, destroying the vessel and co-opting the loose investiture simultaneously.

[+Extesian]

I've wondered for a while if part of Autonomy's game is to make people more autonomous, therefore more connected to her, which makes it easier to get a foothold in places and then directly influence that autonomous investiture. And since OB I've thought that even more with her making avatars, with the idea that once enough people are becoming more connected to her it enables her to 'access' that investiture and create a sapient being out of it. And of course since OB I've wondered the same thing with passion.

 I've never had enough behind it to post a theory and I have some reservations around the extent to which investiture can either change flavor or be more easily manipulated by a Shard based on people exhibiting that behavior. But I'm glad you've prompted discussion down a similar (if not identical) path

[Calderis]

Odium obviously isn't taking up the investiture per WoB because he doesn't want to change himself at all. 

Quote

WinespringBrother [PENDING REVIEW]

Given that Shards, and perhaps, Ascended beings, have intents similar to their names.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

More that they have names similar to their intents.

WinespringBrother [PENDING REVIEW]

So, would Unity be a natural enemy of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Um... Possibly. You say "natural,"

WinespringBrother [PENDING REVIEW]

Well, would one eliminate the other one? But more towards Autonomy trying to break up...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

To break up Unity. It's so hard to say, because Autonomy is a bit of a strange duck. Like, what counts as being Autonomous? Is absorbing everything and becoming one again Autonomous or not? That's kind of your question that you get into. And the way Autonomy looks at it right now, is no. Autonomy wants to remain Autonomy. Autonomy does not want to be corrupted by anything else. And Autonomy would think the Shards are better on their own. But is this a natural affect, or part of the...? Does that make sense?

WinespringBrother [PENDING REVIEW]

Well, but it's also along the lines of, Odium wants to break up the other ones, so they don't...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Odium just wants to be top dog. And your two ways to be top dog are to climb higher, or to lower everyone else. And he's like, we're gonna lower everyone else. Because I know, if I combine, it stops being me, is what his opinion is. I would no longer be the person I am. I would change into someone else. And then that person gets to rule, and I don't want that person to rule. I want to.

source

I could see the argument being made that in shattering the Shards, he's making that investiture available for use to his minions without draw on him... But even that feels like a stretch to me. 

Look at the Dor. He hadn't figured out how to effectively Splinter shard yet so he shoved the Shards into the Cognitive to prevent anyone being able to take them up, and in so doing effectively made that magic system unavailable everywhere else in the Cosmere, and moved on without a second thought. 

The important thing to him is that no one else can take up a power to rival him. Per WoB above, he's not trying to climb higher, just knock everyone else lower. 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Calderis

[Fanghur Rahl]

It’s also possible, I think, that Odium truly does embody all the passions, but only their negative sides. Maybe Devotion also embodied the passions as well but only their positive sides (i.e. love vs hate, affection vs lust, etc.). Regardless, I do like your line of thought here though. The only caveat I have is that the Shards are supposed to transcend the three realms in someway, so I’m not sure that the “perception shapes reality” thing would really apply to them, at least for any perception save that of their vessels. But I could be wrong about that, and I do think that this is something that deserves to be taken seriously.