Unmade Theory (spoilers)

[CATPOOP]

Spoiler warning maybe?

 

 

So the unmade are spren right? And the keeper of secrets tells shallan to ask her son about trust, who im assuming is pattern when she refers to it, in oathbringer when shes at the gate.  

Heres a theory and prove me wrong if u want my friends and i argue about it, were the unmade the original "higherspren" of honor like the stormfather, only of each order of radiant. But then corrupted by odium before the nahel bond started? Why she says they were made, then unmade?

[Calderis]

Pattern is a regular Cryptic. 

Glys on the other hand, is a corrupted or "enlightened" spren, and as such should be one of Sja-anat's "children."

As to the Unmade... I'm conflicted as to what they are. Corrupted Bondsmith tier spren? Dawnshards? 

We don't have enough information to prove what they were at all. Just speculate. 

[Quantus]

There's also the implication that the Unmade werent originally Spren at all, but were turned into that sort of pure Investiture existence via whatever "Unmaking" process they were subjected to. That leaves the possibilities open pretty wide. 

 

Also, just stumbled across this, which implies that there is a qualitative difference between the Stormfather (and presumably the other two godspren) and the Unmade, though they are on similar "levels"

Quote

Khyrindor (paraphrased)

Are the Unmade and the Stormfather the same "class" of being?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Technically no, but they are on a similar level. It is a good analogy.

source

 

 

Quote

 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

1) The Nightwatcher and Stormfather are parallel entities such that Nighwatcher:Cultivation :: Stormfather:Honor.

2) There is sort of a parallel for Odium, but the parallel is the various Unmade instead of a single entity.

3) They are parallel in that they are all Splinters.

4) The Unmade are voluntary Splinters, because Odium ("like almost all of the other Shards") voluntarily Splintered part of it's power.

5) The Stormfather is different from the others because it's a Sliver.

source

 

...Almost all of the other shards?  What would an non-voluntary Splinter of a Shard look like?

[Scion of the Mists]

11 minutes ago, Quantus said:

..Almost all of the other shards?  What would an non-voluntary Splinter of a Shard look like?

Seons and Skaze.  

[CATPOOP]

Ohhhh. Ok. Thanks a lot. I guess i just need to dig into this site more lol.

[Quantus]

23 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Seons and Skaze.  

Ah, of course.  I was thinking something bigger, more along the lines of an unwilling avatar

[Corax]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Ah, of course.  I was thinking something bigger, more along the lines of an unwilling avatar

I don't think that specific thing is hinted at anywhere in the books, but I really like the idea of an unwilling/accidental avatar. That could make for a very interesting and compelling story that I'd happily read from Brandon or as fan fiction somehow. So cool!

Edited August 28, 2018 by Corax

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Corax said:

I don't think that specific thing is hinted at anywhere in the books, but I really like the idea of an unwilling/accidental avatar. That could make for a very interesting and compelling story that I'd happily read from Brandon or as fan fiction somehow. So cool!

Definitely not actually hinted at as far as I know, since we know almost nothing about Bavadin's avatars or what makes them warrant a new term.  But it would sort of fit with how I imagine Autonomy working (again, with almost no actual evidence). 

 

We know that a Shard has the ability to become aware of their own Intent's energy/investiture on other planets if they (more or less) ponder it enough, but they are still finite and so cannot themselves harness and/or hold the knowledge of all those worlds. However, Im thinking that instead of trying to claim and incorporate those new pockets of Investiture, Autonomy find the new worlds and then takes steps to make a local ascend to become the Invested Host of Autonomy (at a local level).  In this way autonomy is awakening all the Investiture of themself across the cosmere, without actually adding it to the central store that was broken off Adonalsium during the shattering.   It would explain why they are not at odds with Rayse; Rayse is trying to become the "Top Dog" by getting rid of rivals, but Autonomy seems to be voluntarily reducing amd shattering itself, scattering it's essence and Investiture across different shardworlds.  

[Angsos]

Also I think Rayse still needed Autonomy when going after shards but got stuck on Roshar before they could turn on each other.

[tmnsquirtle]

21 hours ago, Quantus said:

Autonomy find the new worlds and then takes steps to make a local ascend to become the Invested Host of Autonomy (at a local level).

I had never considered this before, and I think it's probably worth keeping in our back pocket of Autonomy theories, even though we know next to nothing about her.

The other notable theory that I liked about this was that Autonomy is splintering her cognitive aspect, but not her body/power/investiture, in order to create avatars. So her total available power is growing, but at the cost of mental power, and also the fact that all the avatars may not agree on what to do with it.

[Quantus]

20 hours ago, Angsos said:

Also I think Rayse still needed Autonomy when going after shards but got stuck on Roshar before they could turn on each other.

Ive long suspected that the secret to Splintering a Hexadiety is going to be that it requires two shards to yank it apart, pulling it opposite directions (whatever form that may take across multiple realms).  Thinking about it, the confrontation on Sel must have been Epic.  Either a two-on-two shard-fight, or else Rayse has a bigger shardic coalition than I thought. 

[Angsos]

It had to be more than two on two or Autonomy created a distraction with an Avatar. Rayse went after D&D after Ambition so clearly he feared them. Either a distraction, more help or he had some of Ambitions power for extra umph.

[Calderis]

21 minutes ago, Angsos said:

It had to be more than two on two or Autonomy created a distraction with an Avatar. Rayse went after D&D after Ambition so clearly he feared them. Either a distraction, more help or he had some of Ambitions power for extra umph.

D&D were the first to fall. Ambition was Odium's top priority, but he failed to find her. He succeeded in hunting her down after their deaths. 

[tmnsquirtle]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

D&D were the first to fall. Ambition was Odium's top priority, but he failed to find her. He succeeded in hunting her down after their deaths. 

How can you 'fail to find' something in the spiritual realm, where distance basically doesn't exist? 

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, tmnsquirtle said:

How can you 'fail to find' something in the spiritual realm, where distance basically doesn't exist? 

Because their minds don't exist there, even if their power does. If they did, Odium wouldn't be bound to the Rosharan system. This isn't just a limitation on Odium either. 

Mistborn spoilers. 

Spoiler

Questioner

How far does Sazed's power actually extend?

Brandon Sanderson

It is mostly limited to his immediate sphere of influence, so the planet.

Questioner

But doesn't he move stars at the end?

Brandon Sanderson

No, he moved the planet. His solar system, he can definitely have influence on the solar system. But none of the other planets around Scadrial are inhabited.

source

 

[Ciridae]

The Stormfather says Odium won't risk splintering him because it would leave him open to a strike from Cultivation. I think that alone says a lot about what multishardic battle would look like. 

On another note, I don't think that Autonomy is splintering herself when she creates avatars. I think its more that, whenever she discovers a new body of investiture assosciated with her intent somewhere in the cosmere, instead of gulping that bit up and joining it to her main shardic pool of investiture under her direct control, she gives it the ability to form a consciousness, and imbues it with certain character traits (like a dislike of Hoid for example). The investiture is still autonomy, part of the larger Shard as it was before it was discovered by Bavadin, but now she is aware of it and it is autonomous to think and act. That is why Patji is Patji, but Brandon still refers to them as a Shard of Adonalsium.

I imagine it a bit like realizing that you have a hand, calling that hand Bob, telling that hand that it likes ice cream and then letting that hand do whatever it wants. 

Edited September 1, 2018 by Ciridae

[Juanaton]

On 9/1/2018 at 1:57 AM, Ciridae said:

I imagine it a bit like realizing that you have a hand, calling that hand Bob, telling that hand that it likes ice cream and then letting that hand do whatever it wants. 

Seriously missed a chance to make an Addams Family reference there.

[ConfusedCow]

Perhaps the unmade were normal powerful spren from honor and cultivation but when hatred corrupted humanities noble ideals it changed the spren ... unmade them into forces of evil.  

For example, perhaps some humans fight courageously and bravely for honorable things and create a courage spren.   Sadly, driven by hatred these humans, perhaps generations of humans, begin fighting for selfish reasons, eventually fighting just because they like it.  That idea of courage becomes twisted into bloodlust and ferocity.  The spren of courage is killed and twisted and deformed and becomes Nergaoul.

Nergaoul  - Courage (twisted to mad bloodlust)

Ashertmarn - Celebration  (twisted to perverse gluttony)

Re-Shephir - Empathy and Compassion (twisted to sick fascination and obsession)

Sja-anat - Teaching and Loving Knowledge (twisted to loving secrets and manipulation)

Yelig-nar - Respect for a leader (twisted to fear of a tyrant)

Moelach - Respect for the dead (twisted to callous occult use)

Ba-ado-Mishram - Transformation? (twisted to enslavement)

Cheomorish - Love of nature? (twisted to destruction and abuse of nature)

Dai-Gornathis - Love of fish? (twisted to disgust of seafood)

     Perhaps if humans as a group can be noble enough the unmade could be remade, the evil minions of odium not merely contained or captured in gemstones but redeamed and turned against him.  

 

 

[Patrick Star]

I still agree with the "Unmade are Heralds" Theory

I'm not a fan of suggesting hypothetical spren that may not even exist as being what was unmade into the unmade.  Whatever they were, it was almost definitely something that was already mentioned as foreshadowing. That's typically how authors handle these sorts of things.

This really leaves the Heralds and the Dawnshards as the only two viable candidates.  Of the two, the Heralds currently fit better, as we have no idea what the Dawnshards are/were, and there's a clear correlation between multiple unmade and heralds, plus the theory explains their naming scheme.

[RShara]

I just asked about the # of Desolations at the Legion release. There were more than 15 but less than 50. He doesn't actually know how many there were off the top of his head, which to me, says that it's not a plot significant number. I know that the theory was that each time a Herald broke, another -name was added, but I don't think that can be the case, otherwise he'd know how many there were.

Quote

R'Shara [PENDING REVIEW]

How many times did a Herald break and let the Fused return to Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Oh, so how many Desolations were there, total?

R'Shara [PENDING REVIEW]

Between the Oathpact and Aharietiam?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Not as many as people say there are.

R'Shara [PENDING REVIEW]

More than fifty, less than fifty?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I would guess offhand more than fifteen, but not much more. That's the sort of thing I just have to look at the timeline on. You're catching me flat-footed on that one. I would have to go look. Not as many as they think, but more than fifteen.

R'Shara [PENDING REVIEW]

More than fifteen? Okay, because I actually asked more than fifty.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Oh you asked more than fifty. More than fifteen, less than fifty.

source

 

[Patrick Star]

@RShara Man, that's unfortunate.  Adds a point to Dawnshards then.  Thanks for asking about that.

Guess we'll have to wait and see.  I guess another good question to ask would be "You've said that you can map the Unmade to Radiant Orders, and that the missing order would be the Bondsmiths.  Can you do the same for the Heralds?  And if so, what Herald would be missing?"

A no on that would definitely put the theory to rest.  A "yes, Taln" answer would basically confirm the main gist of it.  Though knowing Brandon, there's about a 50/50 chance he'd RAFO the question either way.

[Magpro]

 I think there were 16 spen originally which were combined to make the Unmade. This matches with number 16 of Adolnasium

Ba	Ado	Mishram	3
Re	Shephir		2
Sja	Anat		2
Yelig	Nar		2
Dai	Gonarthis		2
Moelach			1
Nergaoul			1
*Che	Moarish		2
Ashertmarn			1
		Sum	16

*Chemoarish is the exception, she has no hyphen, but is sentient, I think chemoarish should have hyphen

Odium claimed them and combined them to create specific capabilities he needed.

[RShara]

In my question, he didn't know for sure how many times a Herald broke which probably means it's not a significant number. If it were 16, he'd definitely know it.

[Patrick Star]

6 hours ago, RShara said:

In my question, he didn't know for sure how many times a Herald broke which probably means it's not a significant number. If it were 16, he'd definitely know it.

I agree with you, it's probably not significant.  Clearly the dashes are something else, or maybe just overall not important at all, especially if Cheomarish ends up being sentient.  I'm just not sure if this disproves the basic idea of the theory, and a question more tailored resolve that.  Plus it's just a good idea in general to get a better idea of what the unmade are.

But yeah, like I said before, I still think they were Heralds or Dawnshards.  Maybe ask how many Dawnshards there are/were?

[ConfusedCow]

I appreciate Patrick Star's points, exspecially about foreshadowing, but I don't buy the unmade are heralds theory.  There are no hints anywhere that people can become spren or vice versa.  The heralds were never made, so how can they be unmade.  It doesn't mesh well with the history.  The heralds lead mankind against twisted versions of themselves? Or maybe there were no unmade until after Ahertiam? Does killing Jezrien kill one of the unmade, or free the unmade or make it stronger?  It doesn't sync up with me.  

My theory which I'll call the Theory of Original Spren, might not be foreshadowed but is very consistent.

1) Spren are created and transformed by human cognition impressing itself on investiture as explained to Shallan by Jasnah in WoK.  The unmade are powerful spren (though far nastier) as explained by smart Tarvangian.

2) Humanity has fallen from their noble ideals and must reclaim them to be saved (stop the unmade). Odium works by turning people against each other and twisting and breaking peoples' virtues.