Ookla the Quill

A Couple Aviar Questions

20 posts in this topic

1. Was it ever confirmed how Dusk got Sak/Sak's egg? (if not, is it possible that it was Hoid?)
2. If you brought an egg from another world and raised it like what happened with Sak, would they have a potential for power-granting?
3. If #2 would work, would the power-granted have something related to the natural Investiture of the bird/homeworld of the bird, should that be applicable?
4. Would, say, an axehound from Roshar be able to be raised in such a way it would gain the ability to bestow powers?

I feel like I've seen the answers to all of these somewhere but it just ain't coming to me.

Edited by Invocation
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10 hours ago, Invocation said:

1. Was it ever confirmed how Dusk got Sak/Sak's egg? (if not, is it possible that it was Hoid?)
2. If you brought an egg from another world and raised it like what happened with Sak, would they have a potential for power-granting?
3. If #2 would work, would the power-granted have something related to the natural Investiture of the bird/homeworld of the bird, should that be applicable?
4. Would, say, an axehound from Roshar be able to be raised in such a way it would gain the ability to bestow powers?

I feel like I've seen the answers to all of these somewhere but it just ain't coming to me.

1. It was not, but I don't think that Sak was special in anyway (besides being from the same planet)

2. I doubt it.  Most of the time you need to have Connection to a particular place in order to be able to access the magic system (e.g. non-Scadrians can't be Allomancers), so I don't think it's likely for a non-native species to be able to gain an Aviar power (at least without some Connection hacking).  

4. It also might not work with non-avian species.  It doesn't work on humans, according to this WoB, but he did say that "there might be something more there," so it may be able to work on other species.  

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My idea about 2 was that the bird itself functions like the Gem in fabrials or the Metal in allomancy
The parasite they get is what provides the power, the bird's physiology functions to determine what type of power is granted.

If that's true, any bird from any world could be brought and might provide an ability, but I would always expect that ability to be unique to First of the Sun not from the bird's homeworld, because, again, the parasite is the source, not the bird itself.

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If I recall correctly different species of Aviar have different abilities, which is why Sak's ability was extraordinary.
At present we don't have a rigid system for powers though so I imagine that if an alien physiology could develop powers then they would be different.

 

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On 8/29/2018 at 5:10 PM, Wreith said:

If that's true, any bird from any world could be brought and might provide an ability,

If the parasite survives and an alien bird counts as bird.

The only evidence we have is from Sixth of the Dusk and it is mostly negative. Mainly why did he not bring more birds?

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On 10/14/2018 at 8:43 AM, Oltux72 said:

If the parasite survives and an alien bird counts as bird.

The only evidence we have is from Sixth of the Dusk and it is mostly negative. Mainly why did he not bring more birds?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

The parasite would have to survive on home-grown animals too. I'm not even sure we can assume that only birds can gain powers from the parasites.
Other creatures obviously have intelligence and abilities. Birds are just all we see bonded with humans.

We see one mainland bird and it successfully gained a power. That's 100% positive...not negative.
And as far as I recall, we don't even know why Dusk brought Sak let alone any others.
Ostensibly he finds the new ability far too valuable to risk other trappers finding out about by bringing more non-native birds

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3 hours ago, Wreith said:

And as far as I recall, we don't even know why Dusk brought Sak let alone any others.

Kokerli is necessary to hide him from the sea monsters, Apparently every hunter has one of that type. Sak is allomantic electrum in bird form.
Dusk brought Kokerli and Sak. So you can have multiple aviars. So why did he not start out with aviars beyond Kokerli? If aviars could grant powers equivalent to pewter, tin or feruchemical gold, Dusk would find that useful, wouldn't he? So we can draw conclusions from the negative evidence about Dusk's hypothetical other aviars about which kinds of powers aviars don't grant.

Regarding the parasite I am afraid we are misunderstanding this. It is unlikely that the parasite gives the aviars arcane powers. It is likelier that it grants the ability to bond with humans and share powers they already have with them. Why is that so? A lot of animals and plants on and around these islands have arcane powers including outright telepathy. Do they all go to Patji's eye pickung up worms? That would mean you have a worm that could live in all kinds of animals and even plants but not humans. Leaving aside the question how giant sea monsters living in salt water would get up a river they don't fit into.

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

So we can draw conclusions from the negative evidence about Dusk's hypothetical other aviars about which kinds of powers aviars don't grant.

Unfortunately, no we can't. 

Quote

Argent [PENDING REVIEW]

Are there Aviar who grant Physical abilities?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Technically, yes. 

Argent [PENDING REVIEW]

'Cause we’ve seen Spiritual, we've seen Cognitive...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, there are. 

source

 

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"Technically, yes" is not the most ringing endorsement of spectacular physical abilities. What Gaspers do is a physical ability, isn't it? Yet it is not something a hunter would necessarily choose to carry an aviar for. Yet Dusk is really impressed by a firearm. Would that be so if aviars could grant you the abilities of a coinshot? That seems rather unlikely to me.

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On 8/27/2018 at 8:50 PM, Invocation said:


2. If you brought an egg from another world and raised it like what happened with Sak, would they have a potential for power-granting?

That is an interesting question. When I was asking Brandon about Aviars this was his response. I would think the bird had to be on First of the Sun, but I’m not sure if it had to be a native bird. But the way Brandon used the word origin makes me think it would need to be native.

JoyBlu

Is Mraize's Aviar from First of the Sun or is it from another planet?

Brandon Sanderson

If it's called an Aviar, its origin is First of the Sun.

source

 

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1 hour ago, JoyBlu said:

That is an interesting question. When I was asking Brandon about Aviars this was his response. I would think the bird had to be on First of the Sun, but I’m not sure if it had to be a native bird. But the way Brandon used the word origin makes me think it would need to be native.

JoyBlu

Is Mraize's Aviar from First of the Sun or is it from another planet?

Brandon Sanderson

If it's called an Aviar, its origin is First of the Sun.

source

 

That depends entirely on how much Investiture the parasites that give Investiture give. Theoretically, if enough Investiture were to be added, it might be considered a new being, with a new origin. Alternatively, origin could just refer to the place it hatched.

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9 hours ago, Invocation said:

. Alternatively, origin could just refer to the place it hatched.

Yes. Very good question for Brandon. 

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I would assume that the bird has to be from First of the Sun, as per this WoB:

Quote

Podman36 [PENDING REVIEW]

You said before that if a human ate an Aviar worm, it would not doing anything, right? Someone's tried that? What would happen if a baby...?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Still wouldn't work. The gut flora is too different. And they're not part of the symbiotic life cycle there. That system has evolved to the symbiosis that it has, and humans are too new to trying to make that work.

Humans are not new on the planet, but they are not part of that system.

Podman36 [PENDING REVIEW]

Could they be trained into it?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Training wouldn't work.

Podman36 [PENDING REVIEW]

Not like training, but through generations.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Through generations, that would be theoretically possible.

source

It's lucky enough that a bird from a totally different environment, totally different place, would have similar enough gut flora for Sak to work- the birds on the mainland and the ones on Patji must of had common ancestors at some point. I would find it incredibly unlikely that a bird from any other planet (even a bird from somewhere distant on First of the Sun may not be able to become Aviar, I'd think) would have compatible gut flora to this incredibly specific, unique, isolated, magical system by happenstance. 

Which would also mean a no to the Aviar axehound, unfortunately. Hope this helps! ^_^

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On 8/27/2018 at 8:50 PM, Invocation said:

1. Was it ever confirmed how Dusk got Sak/Sak's egg? (if not, is it possible that it was Hoid?)

3. If #2 would work, would the power-granted have something related to the natural Investiture of the bird/homeworld of the bird, should that be applicable?

 

1. I don't think Hoid would be very interested in First of the Sun, as there aren't any Shards there.

3. I don't know if we have confirmation that there actually is Investiture on First of the Sun, as a perpendicularity does not necessarily point to Investiture. If there is, please prove me wrong. Also, it says in Arcanum Unbounded

Quote

There is likely Investiture here somewhere as well...

It does not, however, explicitly say there is Investiture. Once again, if we have had confirmation, please prove me wrong.

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On 11/21/2018 at 2:19 PM, Jruesch2 said:

1. I don't think Hoid would be very interested in First of the Sun, as there aren't any Shards there.

3. I don't know if we have confirmation that there actually is Investiture on First of the Sun, as a perpendicularity does not necessarily point to Investiture. If there is, please prove me wrong. Also, it says in Arcanum Unbounded

It does not, however, explicitly say there is Investiture. Once again, if we have had confirmation, please prove me wrong.

Quote

ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The investiture on that planet is residue, normal investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a shard present. Indeed, I would say that no shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of shardworlds.)

Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.

That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor shard worlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a mistborn.

But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)

Oversleep

Wait.

I'm confused.

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal investiture from Adonalsium?

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

But now you're saying it didn't?

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What shard is this investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all investiture ever predates the shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and investiture are one thing.

I always imagine investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To investiture, Adonalsium's shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "invested" there? No, no more than you're invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of mater and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Overlord Jebus

You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).

Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?

Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.

Chaos

Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple.

Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.

source

 

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Another thing to say that whatever species is effected it must be Avian... Nightmaws are birds. 

Quote

JoyBlu [PENDING REVIEW]

As I was reading about nightmaws, I thought that nightmaws were like dinosaurs. Is that...?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, but they are feathered.

JoyBlu [PENDING REVIEW]

Like a pterodactyl?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

More like a giant...

JoyBlu's Daughter [PENDING REVIEW]

Chicken!

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Giant chicken. We're looking at a giant evil bird.

source

 

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On 11/21/2018 at 0:19 PM, Jruesch2 said:

3. I don't know if we have confirmation that there actually is Investiture on First of the Sun, as a perpendicularity does not necessarily point to Investiture. If there is, please prove me wrong.

A Perpendicularity literally is Investiture in liquid form. We have additional confirmation that there is an entity called Patji that's an avatar of Autonomy. Even if Autonomy had never 'visited' the world, what's going on there would still be a manifestation of Investiture, it's just not the kind of Investiture that a human can directly interact with in the way that they interact with something like allomancy or surgebinding.

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20 hours ago, Weltall said:

A Perpendicularity literally is Investiture in liquid form. We have additional confirmation that there is an entity called Patji that's an avatar of Autonomy. Even if Autonomy had never 'visited' the world, what's going on there would still be a manifestation of Investiture, it's just not the kind of Investiture that a human can directly interact with in the way that they interact with something like allomancy or surgebinding.

I'm kind of confused now. If a Perpendicularity is Investiture, then why did Khriss in Arcanum Unbounded not know if there was Investiture even though she knew there was a perpendicularity? I hope that makes sense. Is it possible that there are different kinds of perpendicularities?

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7 minutes ago, Jruesch2 said:

I'm kind of confused now. If a Perpendicularity is Investiture, then why did Khriss in Arcanum Unbounded not know if there was Investiture even though she knew there was a perpendicularity? I hope that makes sense. Is it possible that there are different kinds of perpendicularities?

A perpendicularity occurs through a concentration of Investiture. There are different kinds... But it's always Investiture.

Quote

There are many planets in the cosmere that are inhabited, but upon which no Shards currently reside. Though the lives, passions, and beliefs of the people are, of course, important regardless of which planet they reside on, only a few of these planets have relevance to the greater cosmere at large.
This is mostly due to the fact that travel on and off the planets (at least in the Physical Realm) is dependent upon perpendicularities—places where a person can transition from Shadesmar onto the planet itself. If a world doesn’t have a perpendicularity, then it can be studied from the Cognitive Realm, but cannot truly be visited.
In general, perpendicularities are created by the presence of a Shard on the planet. The concentration of so much Investiture on the Cognitive and Physical Realms creates points of … friction, where a kind of tunneling exists. At these points, Physical matter, Cognitive thought, and Spiritual essence become one—and a being can slide between Realms.

The existence of a perpendicularity (which often take the form of pools of concentrated power on the Physical Realm) on a planet is a hallmark of a Shard’s presence. This is what makes First of the Sun so interesting.

The system, nicknamed Drominad, has a remarkable three planets inhabited by fully developed human societies. (There is also a fourth planet in the habitable zone.) This is unique in the cosmere; only the Rosharan system can rival it, and there one of the planets is inhabited solely by Splinters.
All four of these planets have water as a dominant feature. And one of them, the first planet, has a perpendicularity.
I have not been able to discover why, or how, this perpendicularity exists. There is certainly no Shard residing in the system. I cannot say what is happening, only that this feature must hint at things that occurred in the past of the planet. There is likely Investiture here somewhere as well, though I have not yet had a chance to investigate First of the Sun myself. The area around the perpendicularity is extremely dangerous, and the few expeditions sent there from Silverlight have not returned.

She's not knows that "Investiture" is present but hasn't investigated personally to discover it... In this instance, I believe she's speaking of usable Investiture, not just the Spiritual energy itself. And she's right, as it's present in the Aviar. 

She's just wrong about the lack of a Shard. Khriss is not all knowing. 

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Yes, for proof she said Sel was becoming a shard, and Brandon has said it physically can't...

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