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Does Atium Rust?


Invocation

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No ever mention of rust, even in the Trust where there is Atium stored from hundred of years.

By the way, for the Atium nature I am not even sure it would react with most of things. And rusting is a reaction dictate by a chemical reaction with oxygen

Edited by Yata
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Apparently not all metals rust. From wikipedia:

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Although some people refer to rust generally as "oxidation", that term is much more general; although rust forms when iron undergoes oxidation, not all oxidation forms rust. Only iron or alloys that contain iron can rust, but other metals can corrode in similar ways. The main catalyst for the rusting process is water.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of chemical reaction that involved atium. That being said, I also wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a way to oxidize it. Godmetals kind of break earth physics.

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1 hour ago, tmnsquirtle said:

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of chemical reaction that involved atium. That being said, I also wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a way to oxidize it. Godmetals kind of break earth physics.

Gold is an illustrative example here since one reason it's been historically valuable is that it doesn't rust or otherwise tarnish. This is because it doesn't react chemically with almost anything you can reasonably expose it to (like gaseous oxygen and nitrogen, water or common acids) and the circumstances under which you can oxidize it aren't ones that any human is going to reasonably be exposed to. Chromium is another highly nonreactive metal that happens to be part of the Metallic Arts. Atium and lerasium are probably at least that nonreactive. We know it's not a universal property of godmetals (harmonium is explicitly chemically reactive) and we know they're not immutable to non-magical means since you can melt atium and lerasium for alloying purposes but for the most part the godmetals are generally likely to be nonreactive to anything beyond extreme conditions.

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22 hours ago, Weltall said:

Gold is an illustrative example here since one reason it's been historically valuable is that it doesn't rust or otherwise tarnish. This is because it doesn't react chemically with almost anything you can reasonably expose it to (like gaseous oxygen and nitrogen, water or common acids) and the circumstances under which you can oxidize it aren't ones that any human is going to reasonably be exposed to. Chromium is another highly nonreactive metal that happens to be part of the Metallic Arts. Atium and lerasium are probably at least that nonreactive. We know it's not a universal property of godmetals (harmonium is explicitly chemically reactive) and we know they're not immutable to non-magical means since you can melt atium and lerasium for alloying purposes but for the most part the godmetals are generally likely to be nonreactive to anything beyond extreme conditions.

To play devil's advocate here for a second, I think it could go either way. Yes, they could be as unreactive as gold, but since we know that harmonium reacts in certain conditions, there's nothing saying that atium isn't explicitly reactive. 

Also, to get back to the OP for a second: metal will preserve pretty well in dry environments. It's very possible that atium should/would/could rust, but didn't just because the kandra homeland is not terribly wet. I'm no expert in caves, but I have to assume that it's possible to have a cave system with a lot of airflow and not a lot of water.

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2 hours ago, tmnsquirtle said:

It's very possible that atium should/would/could rust, but didn't just because the kandra homeland is not terribly wet. I'm no expert in caves, but I have to assume that it's possible to have a cave system with a lot of airflow and not a lot of water.

I suppose, but most large cave systems are formed in limestone via water erosion, which is why they tend to be wetter environments. If the kandra Homeland is different, there's no textual evidence one way or the other.

Edited by Unlicensed Hemalurgist
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2 hours ago, Unlicensed Hemalurgist said:

I suppose, but most large cave systems are formed in limestone via water erosion, which is why they tend to be wetter environments. If the kandra Homeland is different, there's no textual evidence one way or the other.

That was my assumption as well, plus the fact that they cultivate mushrooms there (not an expert either, but would be surprised if they could grow without some humidity) led me to believe that that wouldn't be the case. Maybe that part of the cave is an unusually dry area, or the seal over the opening of the reserve is airtight.

But of course, that's all speculation, and lacking evidence about atium, we probably won't see whether or not any of those factors would actually matter or not.

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I think unless the spiritual nature of a metal, like harmonium, makes it reactive, it's just not going to be inherently by means of being investiture. 

Invested objects seem more durable and resistant to damage. Nightblood is made of steel, and isn't rusted. And I doubt their drawing him for routine maintenance. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

I agree with all of you, but it just feels weird that the physical manifestation of Ruin wouldn't decay....

That's what I thought, hence I made the thread and asked. Surely the raw, untamed manifestation of decay that has a physical thing would have that thing decay too, yeah? APPARENTLY NOT.

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20 minutes ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

I agree with all of you, but it just feels weird that the physical manifestation of Ruin wouldn't decay....

12 minutes ago, Invocation said:

That's what I thought, hence I made the thread and asked. Surely the raw, untamed manifestation of decay that has a physical thing would have that thing decay too, yeah? APPARENTLY NOT.

I think this would fall under the area of "a Shard's intent is not self directed." 

Quote

Chaos

It's a little odd that Preservation would inherently give up its power to fuel Allomancy, because you'd think he would preserve himself, you know? Does that make sense?

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation, as a Shard, is about preserving life, people, and the like. Not about self. No more than Ruin is about destroying self, or Cultivation is about growing herself.

source

Atium is "Ruin's body." 

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Allomancy doesn't actually add investiture or proliferate anything. It basically just comes around back to preservation then the allomancers again. Kinda like you know how Rain works.

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

I think unless the spiritual nature of a metal, like harmonium, makes it reactive, it's just not going to be inherently by means of being investiture. 

Invested objects seem more durable and resistant to damage. Nightblood is made of steel, and isn't rusted. And I doubt their drawing him for routine maintenance. 

Almost spit my coffee just thinking about this lol

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Unless I'm mistaken that is how all investiture works. So the magic system it's self is what is tied to the shard. Ruining metal in order to create power seems like the in-between system. I read in another thread why allomancy truly is preservation's magic system, but it still is counter intuitive to me.

(Sorry if this wasn't what you were talking about. I'm going to bed.)

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11 hours ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

Unless I'm mistaken that is how all investiture works. So the magic system it's self is what is tied to the shard. Ruining metal in order to create power seems like the in-between system. I read in another thread why allomancy truly is preservation's magic system, but it still is counter intuitive to me.

The intent of a Shard is related to how you access the magic. You're Initiated into Preservation's magic by the 'snapping' process in which you reach out to Preserve yourself (and every time you use ityou're Preserving your own strength by drawing power out from Preservation directly) while Ruin's magic is accessed by having the intent to steal power from (ie, to Ruin) someone else. You get access to Surgebinding by swearing to and following ideals (being Honorable) and Endowment's magic is literally a gift from the Shard to the native Nalthians, with the added benefit that every time anyone uses Awakening they're carrying out that Shard's intent. Burning metals in allomancy isn't Ruin-aligned any more than draining color in Awakening is Ruin-aligned or damaging gemstones while performing Soulcasting is Ruin-aligned.

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52 minutes ago, Weltall said:

The intent of a Shard is related to how you access the magic. You're Initiated into Preservation's magic by the 'snapping' process in which you reach out to Preserve yourself (and every time you use ityou're Preserving your own strength by drawing power out from Preservation directly) while Ruin's magic is accessed by having the intent to steal power from (ie, to Ruin) someone else. You get access to Surgebinding by swearing to and following ideals (being Honorable) and Endowment's magic is literally a gift from the Shard to the native Nalthians, with the added benefit that every time anyone uses Awakening they're carrying out that Shard's intent. Burning metals in allomancy isn't Ruin-aligned any more than draining color in Awakening is Ruin-aligned or damaging gemstones while performing Soulcasting is Ruin-aligned.

I know/agree with what your saying. It all makes logical sense. Feruchemy just feels more like preservation's magic. 

Do you see what I'm saying? I agree with the above. But do you agree that at first glance it feels off? (Both atium not decaying and allomancy.)

 
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@Calderis already covered atium not decaying. Intents are not directed inwardly, so Preservation can take actions that will lead to the death of its current Vessel, Ruin isn't driven to destroy itself, Odium doesn't hate itself and so on. Brandon also left open the possibility that the base metals that are burned eventually get recycled back into the system by some sort of matter to Investiture to matter process. It may look a bit weird at first but it does work out.

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@Steel Inqusitive I've never understood the "Feruchemy is of Preservation" argument. Could you explain why?

In my mind, as it's presented in the text, Feruchemy is a balance. You damage an ability at one point in time to enhance it at a later point. The storage in metal doesn't decay in the metal because of the influence of Preservation, but the person must expend their own power rather than be "preserved" because of the influence of Ruin. 

Edited by Calderis
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I originally (as in first time reading series. Non-Cosmere aware status.) Thought Feruchemy was Preservation's magic due to the fact that you are preserving power for future use and while I did some reading on the subject (post -transcendent-moment-of-realization that the cosmere existed) and realised it wasn't. It took me a bit to understand how allomancy was preservation's...but I got there:)

Edited by Steel Inqusitive
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