Can Shards make others Ascend to post-physical beings like themselves?

[Fanghur Rahl]

This might qualify as a tinfoil hat-type idea, but I’ve kinda been wondering whether it might be possible for a Shard to invest enough of their own power into another person to cause that person to ‘Ascend’ into something far less powerful than them but still effectively a post-physical entity like them? I mentioned it in passing on another post the other day, but the closest analogy I can think of would that if we think of the Shard as God, the person they invest would become loosely the equivalent to an angel/archangel.

Regardless of whether it will actually happen, and I very much doubt that it will, at least in the way I’ve described here, but is there any reason that a Shard couldn’t do something like this if they wanted to? Or would it be impossible?

Edited August 28, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[Scion of the Mists]

I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be possible.  We know that the Shards can (and do) intentionally splinter off some of their power to either create an independent being (spren, seons, etc.) or to augment humans (Returned, etc.).  It's just a matter of how much power they're willing to give up.  I don't see any reason why Bavadin couldn't give the extra Investiture she discovers to a person, rather than making it it's own thing (in fact I don't think we have confirmation that she doesn't do just that).  

[Fatikis]

We already know this to be the case. The Lord Ruler ascended. There are also splinters and Autonomy's avatars.

[Fanghur Rahl]

Like I said before, Rashek would not be an example of the kind of thing I’m talking about because the Well didn’t permanently change him, at least not in the sense that he would have been if he’d taken a full Shard. Rashek just used part of Preservation’s power and then went back to being basically a normal human. He didn’t permanently become post-physical like the Shards do. 

As for the avatars of Autonomy, they might qualify; we don’t have enough information yet. But I’m under the impression that her avatars don’t start out as human and then Ascend, rather they’re formed whole cloth from raw Investiture of Autonomy. Arguably they would qualify in status as being roughly equivalent to what I’m talking about, but I’m more interested in whether a Shard could do it to an ordinary flesh and blood human being.

[Scion of the Mists]

13 hours ago, Fatikis said:

We already know this to be the case. The Lord Ruler ascended. There are also splinters and Autonomy's avatars.

The Lord Ruler briefly ascended himself - no Shard ascended him. 

Splinters aren't large enough to count.  

We have no indication that Autonomy's avatars are created out of people.  

[i’m in the details]

My gut says yes, but if that were the case I am suprised that we have not seen a shard do it when they have had the opportunity. Take Endowment for example, she could have made her returned much more powerful. And we know from a WoB that the reason Nathians began returning is due to Endowment wanting to keep up with events happening I’m Cosmere. Most likely Odium. So why not turn her returned into Proto-Shards?

[Fatikis]

1 hour ago, Scion of the Mists said:

The Lord Ruler briefly ascended himself - no Shard ascended him. 

Preservation ascended him. 

Edited August 24, 2018 by Fatikis

[CrazyRioter]

Perservation gave him the opportunity to ascend himself by leaving a bunch of loose power lying around.

[Fanghur Rahl]

Plus, like I said, in Rashek’s case the ‘Ascension’ was only temporary, not permanent like in the case of a Shard or the kind of ‘Shangel’ I’m thinking of.

[Yata]

Rashek's case is indeed meaningfully.

If the power were designed to remain in the system of the well instead of returning to Preservation... it's possible the indipendent power would keep returning to the one holding the well.

Sure you have to cut that power from Preservation but we already saw it as possible. Leras did with Ati's power shortcut it to the Pits

[Fanghur Rahl]

As I understand it, all Rashek did was connect his mind to the power and effectively tell it what to do, but the power never actually became part of his being. The closest direct comparison to what I’m thinking of is the Returned, since as I understand it at least, Endowment literally modifies their souls or spirit webs or what-have-you such that the piece of her power becomes a permanent aspect of the person, regardless of whether or how they choose to use it. The difference is that the Returned are still fully physical human beings for all practical purposes, and not that much more powerful all things considered than any other person.

So the basic precedent for what I’m talking about is already canonical, I’m just wondering whether Endowment or some other Shard could amp it up several orders of magnitude and effectively make mini-Shards out of them, complete with Ascending to post-physical status like the full Shard.

As far as I know, a Shard can’t use up all their power and go back to being an ordinary human like Rashek did.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[tmnsquirtle]

3 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

As far as I know, a Shard can’t use up all their power and go back to being an ordinary human like Rashek did.

For what it's worth, they probably could:

Quote

Questioner

Can holders of Shards give them up voluntarily? If so, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a Vessel for a Shard of Adonalsium can give up their power if they wish.

As for what would happen...well, there are some variables in there. Kind of like the variables in what happens to a bucket of water if you dump it out. Depends on where it falls, how strong the wind is, what the air is like.

Power dropped like this, if left alone, could end up Splintering and turning into something like spren/seons. It could become something more like the Stormfather--a large, self-aware entity. It could become something like the Dor or many of the Unmade--something proto-aware, but not truly an individual. There are other possibilities as well, depending on lots of factors. (Are sapient beings involved? what is being done with the power--is it concentrated in the Spiritual Realm as normal, or is it being pushed somewhere else?)

source

That being said I'm not really sure if they can give all their power. For example, let's suppose the new host is unwilling to accept the power, for the sake of the argument. Would the old vessel be able to just shove 100% of the power at the new host until they ascended? Would our old vessel be able to purposefully give more like 50% of the power, before the new host finally caught up in investiture density and started resisting? Would he not be able to give any of it at all?

I don't see Sanderson answering any of these questions in the novels anytime soon, unless we end up with a hero with a 'I don't deserve this' complex somehow ascending.

[goody153]

Rashek and Vin technically ascended and held powers of the shard (can do things shards can) so that can certainly happen albeit they held it temporarily. Basically that already happened

Edited August 28, 2018 by goody153

[Calderis]

To go with the Rashek example, the power of the well was set aside to coalesce and be used at certain intervals and had no bearing on Leras remaining the Vessel of Preservation. 

I see no reason why that couldn't happen on a more permanent basis. 

Not sure a Shard would want to do that, but I don't see why they couldn't. 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

On 8/23/2018 at 9:02 AM, Fanghur Rahl said:

I mentioned it in passing on another post the other day, but the closest analogy I can think of would that if we think of the Shard as God, the person they invest would become loosely the equivalent to an angel/archangel.

Ummm, don't the Heralds in SLA qualify as archangels? They were given enough of Honor's investiture to become deathless cognitive shadows, given special pieces of himself (splinters of honor) in the form of Honorblades, and they represent divine attributes.

I might be missing something, but the 10 heralds on Roshar seem to fit the bill of your question, and to take the parallel further, they are the angels and the fallen angels in one.

For sure they don't seem to gain some attributes of ascension (expanded mind/deep cosmeric knowledge) but they were able (for a time) to access honor's investiture directly. Sounds like an archangel to me.

Edited August 28, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[Fanghur Rahl]

The Heralds would have been more equivalent to prophets in my opinion; from what we’ve been able to see, even a full Radiant rivalled if not exceeded the Heralds, at least potentially, in terms of raw power. As I’ve said several times now, I’m thinking more along the lines of permanent ascension to post-physical status. The heralds are still human and physical (or at the very least that’s how they manifest), and I doubt they could even stand up against a moderately powerful Splinter, much less anything more powerful.

So yeah, I’m unless we’re also going to consider Elantrians, Radiants, Mistborn, and Returned as equivalent to archangels, the Heralds simply aren’t anywhere near powerful enough to qualify. I think the Elantrians are actually much closer to the typical depiction of archangels in fantasy than the Heralds, since if we’re being super-pedantic they technically are able to do things like obliterate people with a gesture, emit light, fly, teleport, heal with a touch, etc. But again, they’re still completely physical beings.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[Scion of the Mists]

I think that the Heralds match the typical image of archangels the best.  They are superpowered beings, selected by their god, who fight against the forces of darkness.  They're even made immortal via divine intervention.  However, they don't match the original question which was referring to a being whose power level was in the vicinity of that of a Shard.  As I've said before, I think that this is definitely possible, but probably not likely as it would weaken the Shard.  

 

3 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

from what we’ve been able to see, even a full Radiant rivalled if not exceeded the Heralds, at least potentially, in terms of raw power.

Although they don't have any innate powers, when they were powered directly by Honor via the Honorblades, they had access to raw levels of power that no Radiant could obtain.

[Fanghur Rahl]

2 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I think that the Heralds match the typical image of archangels the best.  They are superpowered beings, selected by their god, who fight against the forces of darkness.  They're even made immortal via divine intervention.  However, they don't match the original question which was referring to a being whose power level was in the vicinity of that of a Shard.  As I've said before, I think that this is definitely possible, but probably not likely as it would weaken the Shard.  

 

Although they don't have any innate powers, when they were powered directly by Honor via the Honorblades, they had access to raw levels of power that no Radiant could obtain.

Fair enough, I hadn’t seen that WOB before. Regardless though, like you said, they still aren’t ‘ascended’ in the same sense as a Shard is.

In perpetuity for this post, what I meant by ‘ascended’ in this question is specifically ascending to a post-physical entity, albeit one far less powerful than the full Shard (compare the archangels in Supernatural to God/Chuck or Amara), or the Ravers in Thomas Covenant to the Despiser. That’s the type of relationship I have in mind in terms of power-level difference. Whether that qualifies as ‘in the vicinity of a Shard’ is, I suppose, largely semantics.

[goody153]

On 8/28/2018 at 9:35 AM, Calderis said:

To go with the Rashek example, the power of the well was set aside to coalesce and be used at certain intervals and had no bearing on Leras remaining the Vessel of Preservation. 

I see no reason why that couldn't happen on a more permanent basis. 

Not sure a Shard would want to do that, but I don't see why they couldn't. 

I agree and it certainly doesn't seem to cause some succession issues with the position of the vessel. It's just highly unlikely that a shard would actually consciously give away some of their control to others.

[Fanghur Rahl]

5 hours ago, goody153 said:

I agree and it certainly doesn't seem to cause some succession issues with the position of the vessel. It's just highly unlikely that a shard would actually consciously give away some of their control to others.

I can think of one possible reason a Shard might do it, namely that the ‘Sharchangels’ might potentially retain more of themselves and by extension control than the full Shard. For example, Harmony finds it difficult to muster the will to do anything because of the oppositional effects of his Shards, but perhaps if he created a force of mini-Shards out of people he trusted to not abuse the power, they wouldn’t suffer from this problem as much because they wouldn’t have nearly as much Shardic intent weighing them down. I have no idea whether this would actually be the case or not, but it might be plausible. 

[Calderis]

3 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

I can think of one possible reason a Shard might do it, namely that the ‘Sharchangels’ might potentially retain more of themselves and by extension control than the full Shard.

This might be the case if they change "subvessels" frequently, before the intent can set in and limit them, but I doubt it would work long term in any meaningful way. 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

About how many Breaths do you need to become Invested enough to be influenced by Endowment's intent?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

On the small scale, not very many... One could argue that even someone with one is influenced a little bit. 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Significantly influenced?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No. But the more you get the more likely that is.

source

By the time you are without a body, I think the intent is going to be unavoidable. 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Calderis

[Fanghur Rahl]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

This might be the case if they change "subvessels" frequently, before the intent can set in and limit them, but I doubt it would work long term in any meaningful way. 

By the time you are with a body, I think the intent is going to be unavoidable. 

What do you mean ‘with a body’? Do you mean at the point in which the Investiture literally becomes your ‘body’? (BTW, that’s what I mean when I use the term ‘post-physical’).

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

What do you mean ‘with a body’? Do you mean at the point in which the Investiture literally becomes your ‘body’? (BTW, that’s what I mean when I use the term ‘post-physical’).

It was an Autocorrect that was supposed tonsay "without." 

Fixed... 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Calderis

[Fanghur Rahl]

Fair enough, and yeah you’re probably right. But still, I would think that it would at least be somewhat easier to resist, even if not hugely. 

[tmnsquirtle]

52 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Fair enough, and yeah you’re probably right. But still, I would think that it would at least be somewhat easier to resist, even if not hugely. 

Well, since harmony has had trouble acting according to both his intents, he could theoretically make a 'sharchangel' with only ruin, or only preservation, to act for a few hundred years without that restriction. My question would be more along the lines of enforcement: how would you get them to do everything you want, and take back the power if they go against you/when their term is up?