The Fallen World

[Baijo Gosum]

I think I saw a quick mention of this in another thread but the discusion went in a different direction.

 

What is the possibitlie that the Fallen World (and possibly the homeland) is Yolen?

 

When they talk about first settleing "this continent" it would seem that the homeland is on that planet, but its not concrete

 

The Fallen World seems to imply that it is a different local. 

 

What Silence's mother says about "The God beyound sending us here to makes us strong" could imply that they are from a different world.

 

The whole God Beyond thing is neat also.  Didn't Wayne mention a God Beyond in AoL?  The one that made females such good liers lol.

[bartbug]

Yolen is certainly a possibility, especially whenever something ancient and mysterious is present. But I doubt that the Fallen World is Yolen, at least in this case. Remember, it was a relatively recent event, and that society is at a level of technology where they would correctly understand events. 

 

And yes, the God Beyond is a secret little thingy that's been sprinkled throughout the books. It's also in The Emperor's Soul, if I'm not mistaken. Brandon has said that it refers to a belief in a God not unlike the Judeo-Christian one that has begun to pop up in the cosmere. Something less tangible, yet more powerful.

[Youngy]

And Hoid is spreading it.

He mentions the God Beyond in a story in WoR.

[A Secret Corner]

Possible, but I believe that when Silence's grandmother said that the God Beyond sent them there, it referred to sending them to be born, sending them to live. Well, that and to be strong. As far as the God Beyond  goes, MeLaan also mentions the God Beyond in BoM I think.

[Young Bard]

The timeline doesn't match up.

 

However, this did set me on an interesting idea - we've previously assumed that the Homeland was another continent on Threnody. If there was worldhopping involved, then it's possible that the world they emigrated from was Scadrial, and that the Evil was, in fact, the Deepness. The people who emigrated were the ones who fled before the Final Ascension. And, Scadrial and Threnody are probably close in the Cognitive Realm, as we know they can both see the same patch of stars, called the 'Starbelt'. I'll go through and check for other cameo similarities sometime in the next few weeks or so. If I'm right, there will have to be one subtle reference to TLR somewhere in Shadows, I'm sure.

 

EDIT: Secrets, generally, this is called necro-ing, bringing up a long dead post. Just thought you should know. 

 

EDIT II: I think I've found a link. The silver dagger was called a 'symbol of the old religion'. Silver was one of the metals that, for whatever reason, was immune to Allomancy, and as such, was one of the metals Allomancers made daggers out of, besides glass, obsidian, and aluminium.

Edited June 8, 2016 by The Young Bard

[Yata]

The Deepness was too far in the past, the arrival in the Forest of Hell instead is pretty recent story (Silence's grandma was with the first ones)

[Pagerunner]

But we don't know when Shadows takes place, do we? All we know from Brandon is that it's in the later half of the Cosmere, but before Stormlight. http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1112

 

I've made a case before that it needs to precede Secret History (spoilers):

Nazh appears in SH, and he is from Threnody. Silence's grandparents were among the first, so even if Nazh was one of the first children born on Threnody, he could not be much older than Silence, so Shadows for Silence needs to take place near or earlier than the original Mistborn trilogy.

But that's setting a limit on how late it can occur (~20 years after SH, I think I estimated). I don't think we can set any bounds on how early it occurs. Odium has been bound for over 4500 years on Roshar; if the Evil is the Deepness, then it occurred 1300 years before Stormlight begins; that might fit the bill, timeline-wise.

 

Ultimately, I disagree that it's the Deepness. But not for in-universe timeline reasons; rather, out-of-universe timelines. In the introduction to the short story, Brandon says that the concept for Threnody was a very early idea, developed in 1999 around the same time as Elantris, White Sand, and Dragonsteel. Mistborn was developed later, after Elantris had been successfully published. The concept of Threnody predates the concept of the Deepness (at least, it appears that way; I'm not a time-travelling mind-reader). Brandon could have repurposed the backstory of Threnody to fit with Mistborn, but I still think that Homeland was a new world we haven't seen yet.

[Oudeis]

Bard: Silver is not allomantically inert, you just cannot burn it. You can Push and Pull on it fine, and no one makes knives out of it. It would be functionally worse than many other metals, and have no allomantic benefits.

[Jondesu]

EDIT II: I think I've found a link. The silver dagger was called a 'symbol of the old religion'. Silver was one of the metals that, for whatever reason, was immune to Allomancy, and as such, was one of the metals Allomancers made daggers out of, besides glass, obsidian, and aluminium.

But silver isn't immune. It's just Allomantically inert. You can't burn it, but it's affected like any other metal, and no, silver daggers weren't used by Mistborn or Hazekillers.

jW

[Yata]

Yeah Silver is just useless with the Metallic Arts...like it would be Platinum or other metal outside the 16

[kenod]

But silver isn't immune. It's just Allomantically inert. You can't burn it, but it's affected like any other metal, and no, silver daggers weren't used by Mistborn or Hazekillers.

jW

Allomatically inert means that it is immune, like aluminium. It just isn't burnable.

[Jondesu]

Allomatically inert means that it is immune, like aluminium. It just isn't burnable.

Nope, no other metal shares that quality with aluminum. Silver is in fact usable as an alloy with Gold (that's what Electrum is), but it's not special in any other way. It's basically worthless because of that, unlike aluminum.

jW

[kenod]

Nope, no other metal shares that quality with aluminum. Silver is in fact usable as an alloy with Gold (that's what Electrum is), but it's not special in any other way. It's basically worthless because of that, unlike aluminum.

jW

Sorry, I didn't word it right. I meant that silver wasn't allomantically inert, and that you just can't burn it.

[Pathfinder]

Basically you are both saying the same thing:

 

aluminum - allomancy cannot affect it, but can be burned for an effect

 

silver - allomancy can affect it, but cannot be burned for an effect

[Jondesu]

Ah, yep, kenod, we agree completely then.

jW

[kenod]

[Iarwainiel I]

I've always thought that the Fallen World was Braize - that the people on Threnody world-hopped there (aided by the God Beyond?) when Odium took over Braize ... maybe not immediately when he got there, but when life there became impossible because of him. I know that others have theorized this, and there are points for / against on other threads.

Maybe there were 2 levels of emigration: To Threnody from another world, and from a "mainland" on Threnody to the island/continent with the forests. That could be why there's confusion in how it's worded. Just an idea - what do others think?

[ParadoxicalZen]

My WoB memory is hazy but I seem to recall something about the Evil being related to something we've seen before, and if Silence's grandparents were among the first, then a rough estimate of a time lapse could be a 100~ years, depending on average life spans and conception/birth rates/infant survival. Seeing as we have it via WoB that Shadows happens before SA (thanks @Pagerunner I'm actually inclined to agree with you, seeing as SH also mentions cognitive shadows), not leaving us with many alternatives (and given the nature of the Shades: - smoky appearance, their reactions to doing 'evil' etc.) I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the Fallen World could be Nalthis, seeing the way Nightblood kills people and the like *shrug*

Edited June 26, 2016 by ParadoxSpren

[Yata]

3 hours ago, ParadoxSpren said:

My WoB memory is hazy but I seem to recall something about the Evil being related to something we've seen before, and if Silence's grandparents were among the first, then a rough estimate of a time lapse could be a 100~ years, depending on average life spans and conception/birth rates/infant survival. Seeing as we have it via WoB that Shadows happens before SA (thanks @Pagerunner I'm actually inclined to agree with you, seeing as SH also mentions cognitive shadows), not leaving us with many alternatives (and given the nature of the Shades: - smoky appearance, their reactions to doing 'evil' etc.) I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the Fallen World could be Nalthis, seeing the way Nightblood kills people and the like *shrug*

How to put Nightblood in a loophole:

"Your are the Evil, Nightblood" (with Hagrid's voice) and Nalthis develops  energy indipendence with a modified "Buttered Cat paradox engine"

I don't think your Hypotesis is right.... But it's so hilarious to me 

[ParadoxicalZen]

1 minute ago, Yata said:

How to put Nightblood in a loophole:

"Your are the Evil, Nightblood" (with Hagrid's voice) and Nalthis develops  energy indipendence with a modified "Buttered Cat paradox engine"

I don't think your Hypotesis is right.... But it's so hilarious to me 

Honestly, the irony amuses me so much that if it is correct, I'd give Nightblood a high~sword? But given the corruptive nature of Shades and what Nightblood does, it is interesting. (I think I may have voiced this sentiment before, but can't remember if shot down or no)

[VirtuousTraveller]

Roshar's map is essentially one big continent.  Any chance these folks came from Roshar?  There were dramatic events that could have triggered a migration of people: a desolation, the Recreance, Sunmaker's reign, whatever "scoured" the land in Aimia?  Nale's quest of cold justice could be seen by a persecuted people as "the evil" referenced in SH.

There were once "silver" kingdoms on Roshar (weak connection, I know).

Holes with this idea, of course, are the lack of references to anything on Roshar.

Edited November 5, 2016 by VirtuousTraveller

[Farnsworth]

AU spoiler 

Spoiler

In the essays, it says that the Homeland is bother continent, and the Evil is Ambition after being destroyed by Odium.

 

[WeiryWriter]

6 hours ago, Figberts said:

AU spoiler 

  Hide contents

In the essays, it says that the Homeland is bother continent, and the Evil is Ambition after being destroyed by Odium.

 

Spoiler

Actually Khriss does not say that. She says that Ambition was mortally wounded in the the Threnodite, and some Investiture from that has had an effect on Threnody, but Ambition itself actually died elsewhere. She pointedly says that she doesn't know what the Evil is.

 

[Yata]

On 15/3/2017 at 5:09 PM, Figberts said:

AU spoiler 

  Reveal hidden contents

In the essays, it says that the Homeland is bother continent, and the Evil is Ambition after being destroyed by Odium.

Like @WeiryWriter said the two events aren't directly connected for sure.

Notice how the Evil is a real recent treat (some generations Before Silente) while the other is quite Prehistory....At least 5000 (but probably more) years in the past

Edited March 17, 2017 by Yata

[Farnsworth]

Okay, I see what you mean, but the Fallen World was another continent on Threnody.