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So the night will reign...


RShara

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I don't believe we have specific confirmation. However, I think it's pretty well-founded from that epigraph. The Death Rattles are the only detectable effect of Moelach, who is particularly associated with precongition. Precognition is also the central ability of Voidbinding. So I think it's pretty likely that all of them are prophetic. We don't have any that verifiably refer to prior events, to my knowledge, while we've got several that have been matched up to subsequent events with a fair degree of confidence.

 

And yet one of the death rattles is:

“The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me.”—Dated Naneses, 1173, unknown seconds pre-death. Subject: a wealthy lighteyes. Sample collected second-hand.

 

One might argue that Taln says this while in damnation sometime after the death rattle (perhaps at the very moment of his release, even), but even so I find it plausible that, while the death rattles are all significant and revealing, they may not all be exact future events. That Moelach is the most powerful in terms of precognition doesn't mean that he's entirely precognitive.

 

I'm not really objecting to speculating on possible future events. I just think it's a mistake to shut down speculation on potential past events without more concrete confirmation. The different death rattles all have differences in terms of self awareness/viewpoint within the vision, so I think it is a mistake to assume that all the death rattles must refer to something in the same way that the hanging above the void, true glory and broken promises ones do.

 

I do think the death rattle in the original post is interesting in conjunction with the death rattle with the baby. In that context though, it may be  worth considering that these come from Moelach, an unmade, and therefore may be limited in their accuracy and worldview, in a similar way to Ruin in the Mistborn books.

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I just wanted to chime in on the " [...] for the choice of honor is life." quote: this phrase has two possible meanings.

 

1. Honor, or whatever substitute, chose life.

2. The honorable choice is life.

 

The first one is pretty straight forward, but the second one is less so, since we do not know WHO was choosing. Was it Honor? Was it his Champion? There is far more variability in the second.

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1. Honor, or whatever substitute, chose life.

2. The honorable choice is life.

 

Or 3. Choosing the honorable choice brings life , meaning it's the way to survive the Desolation/defeat Odium.

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Or 3. Choosing the honorable choice brings life , meaning it's the way to survive the Desolation/defeat Odium.

 

Or choosing 'life' means not killing someone, and because of this, Odium wins and so 'the night will reign'. (Odium is associated with the 'dreaded nightspren' and other night words throughout both novels.)

 

For example, 'choosing life' could mean that the Radiants stop the murders of people in Taravangian's hospitals, and so Taravangian doesn't have enough information to win against Odium in the Desolation and so Odium wins.

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I think it's safe to assume all death rattles are precognitive, of the future even when seemingly refer to a past event. Jasnah said 'Everything that happened has happened before. The grand lesson of history' and Hoid's implied all stories have happened before and only the names change.

 

There's no solid proof any rattle is of the past, even 'the burden of nine becomes mine'. We know next to nothing about Taln and shouldn't jump to conclusions yet. What are the chances only this (or only two) death rattle is about the past and all others are foretelling? The death rattles confirmed meaning so far are exact to the word, of the future and not easy to guess beforehand.

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I think it's safe to assume all death rattles are precognitive, of the future even when seemingly refer to a past event. Jasnah said 'Everything that happened has happened before. The grand lesson of history' and Hoid's implied all stories have happened before and only the names change.

 

There's no solid proof any rattle is of the past, even 'the burden of nine becomes mine'. We know next to nothing about Taln and shouldn't jump to conclusions yet. What are the chances only this (or only two) death rattle is about the past and all others are foretelling? The death rattles confirmed meaning so far are exact to the word, of the future and not easy to guess beforehand.

Not really. There are other Rattles that refer to the breaking of the Oathpact besides that one.
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This isn't definite, but I'm pretty sure it's in the past, from one of the Radiants back then. I don't think someone now would say it.

 

It is one way to read it, I agree. But if the pattern of one Radiant per Order continues, then we will have ten people and each of them could wonder what happened to the Almighty. Well, not Dalinar since he sort of knows. This death rattle sounds like of the past, but it could also be a red herring.

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But who would call him a Shard? Only Jasnah might have that level of knowledge, really, and she's atheist. Anyone smart enough to know what Tanavast is probably would know what happened to him too.

 

The Stormfather already reviled he was a sliver, Wyndle uses the word investing. Perhaps cosmere terminology is going to be used a lot by the characters. There are already Shards on Roshar - Blades and Plates yes, but the word is still familiar to everyone.

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I have a question. If the deathrattles are from Moelach wouldn't it be safer to assume they aren't actually the "true" future or past but instead perversions of what could happen in such a way that the unmade/Oduim wants? Just feels odd that there's an unmade seemingly giving the Diagram information that is used against Odium. Feels very suspect to me.

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I have a question. If the deathrattles are from Moelach wouldn't it be safer to assume they aren't actually the "true" future or past but instead perversions of what could happen in such a way that the unmade/Oduim wants? Just feels odd that there's an unmade seemingly giving the Diagram information that is used against Odium. Feels very suspect to me.

I think that's it's less a perversion of the future and more a trade-off. If you want the information to stop Odium, you have to kill a bunch of people, which presumably corrupts you in some way. These Death Rattles may refer to something like it:

I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it give us further breath to draw.

So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life.

Taravangian, by killing these people, is choosing to reject Honor, and as such his efforts will probably end up being futile or even harmful. We've seen that already, with his attempts to assassinate Dalinar.
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I have a question. If the deathrattles are from Moelach wouldn't it be safer to assume they aren't actually the "true" future or past but instead perversions of what could happen in such a way that the unmade/Oduim wants? Just feels odd that there's an unmade seemingly giving the Diagram information that is used against Odium. Feels very suspect to me.

 

If you know someone is spying on you, and you know who the spy is, the absolute best way to deal with them is to feed them the information you want them to have.  To let them believe that you don't know there's a spy, give them correct information until you are able to set them up for a disastrous confrontation in your favor.  Sanderson is aware of this, and has used it before.  Taravangian can be seen as 'spying' on Odium through Moelach; trusting what information you get from it implicitly is foolhardy at best.  T himself refers to it as evil and powerful.  Until we know what causes the Death Rattles (yes, yes, Moelach does; but not everyone Rattles--why do they occur at all?  Does Moelach have any control at all over this?  Is it a byproduct that happens because of some power that Moelach is hesitant to do without?  Did the Nightmother Curse Moelach this way while granting the Boon of being Unmade? <Insert random other theories here>) then we should analyze them, yes, and look at them as a possible truth that Odium doesn't mind being shared, rather than the truth and secrets to defeating Odium.

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  • 4 months later...

Could the Suckling Child quote be related to the Night will Reign quote? I mean, he is talking about how everyone would want him to kill the child, but maybe the second quote is about what he actually does- he/she lets the child live, because that is the honorable choice (as killing a small, still-innocent child could never be of Honor), but this choice is what will eventually lead to Odium's/the night's reign...

Maybe the child will become Odium's Champion? Or a kind of vessel? Or be a trigger?

Or am I just crazy? LOL

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Could the Suckling Child quote be related to the Night will Reign quote? I mean, he is talking about how everyone would want him to kill the child, but maybe the second quote is about what he actually does- he/she lets the child live, because that is the honorable choice (as killing a small, still-innocent child could never be of Honor), but this choice is what will eventually lead to Odium's/the night's reign...

 

That's pretty much my interpretation. I doubt it involves a literal child, though. I interpret it as "humanity will take honorable path, and this leads to Odium reigning". My best prediction from that is that the heroes defeat Taravangian (who's doing dishonorable things, ie. killing the suckling child), and so they doom themselves.

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That's pretty much my interpretation. I doubt it involves a literal child, though. I interpret it as "humanity will take honorable path, and this leads to Odium reigning". My best prediction from that is that the heroes defeat Taravangian (who's doing dishonorable things, ie. killing the suckling child), and so they doom themselves.

 

Could it perhaps refer to Taravangian on one of his very stupid days? Say, if the KR finds out that he is behind all the instability. 

 

He's very likely on a childlike, if not entirely imbecilic level of intelligence, and given that if he has another very smart day (or even if they just let him go) he is a dangerous foe, the KR may choose to spare him only to have his machinations bring them down. 

Edited by Savanorn
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Could it perhaps refer to Taravangian on one of his very stupid days? Say, if the KR finds out that he is behind all the instability. 

 

He's very likely on a childlike, if not entirely imbecilic level of intelligence, and given that if he has another very smart day (or even if they just let him go) he is a dangerous foe, the KR may choose to spare him only to have his machinations bring them down. 

 

This could work as well, but I don't see it as very likely. The quote is:

“I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.”

 

The speaker is talking about doing something very disturbing (killing a child) which would allow "all who live" to gain further breath to draw. I don't think the Radiants would count as doing something like that. The theory is this one

“So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life . . .”

relates by saying that someone will take the "choice of honor", which involves life (ie. saving the suckling child someone was going to kill) and thus doom them all.

 

Ultimately, I think things are shaping up so that SA is ultimately a philosophical quandry. They can let Taravangian enact the Diagram's plan (and live), or else stop Taravangian (because he's doing dishonorable things) and lose to Odium. The trolley problem, essentially, and it seems Brandon is advocating for the choice where everyone dies honorably.

 

Of course, Brandon will surprise you. Everyone dying would be a bit of a downer, and ultimately he says he likes to write uplifting fiction. We'll see.

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This could work as well, but I don't see it as very likely. The quote is:

“I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.”

 

The speaker is talking about doing something very disturbing (killing a child) which would allow "all who live" to gain further breath to draw. I don't think the Radiants would count as doing something like that. The theory is this one

“So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life . . .”

relates by saying that someone will take the "choice of honor", which involves life (ie. saving the suckling child someone was going to kill) and thus doom them all.

 

Ultimately, I think things are shaping up so that SA is ultimately a philosophical quandry. They can let Taravangian enact the Diagram's plan (and live), or else stop Taravangian (because he's doing dishonorable things) and lose to Odium. The trolley problem, essentially, and it seems Brandon is advocating for the choice where everyone dies honorably.

 

Of course, Brandon will surprise you. Everyone dying would be a bit of a downer, and ultimately he says he likes to write uplifting fiction. We'll see.

Of course, not everyone has to die if they lose. The second five books could totally be about the world under Odium.

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This could work as well, but I don't see it as very likely. The quote is:

“I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.”

 

The speaker is talking about doing something very disturbing (killing a child) which would allow "all who live" to gain further breath to draw. I don't think the Radiants would count as doing something like that. The theory is this one

“So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life . . .”

relates by saying that someone will take the "choice of honor", which involves life (ie. saving the suckling child someone was going to kill) and thus doom them all.

 

Ultimately, I think things are shaping up so that SA is ultimately a philosophical quandry. They can let Taravangian enact the Diagram's plan (and live), or else stop Taravangian (because he's doing dishonorable things) and lose to Odium. The trolley problem, essentially, and it seems Brandon is advocating for the choice where everyone dies honorably.

 

Of course, Brandon will surprise you. Everyone dying would be a bit of a downer, and ultimately he says he likes to write uplifting fiction. We'll see.

 

I'd say killing a helpless old man, perhaps one who is weeping at the suffering he has caused, is about as distasteful as murdering a child. Still, it was a suggestion rather than anything I particularly believe in and it wouldn't fit with the suckling part. 

 

Well, thing is, that does work. Night reigning does seem like a loss, but defeat isn't necessarily the last word. Especially if SLA is like two series joined together, perhaps with a timeskip.

 

I could easily see book 5 ending with someone, perhaps Kaladin, finding out that Odium has invested in a child and reaching it, recalling all the "Journey Before Destination...I will Protect..." oaths he's sworn and coming to the conclusion that it's better to face Odium in open combat and risk losing rather than take guaranteed best option. 

 

It'd work for extra angst later on as well. 

 

But I digress, it'll probably be a surprise as you say.

 

Side note; I thought Hero of Ages did end on a pretty darn low note. 

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The child quote seems way to overtly Old Testament biblical for me for Brandon to put that kind of dilemma on Kaladin. I mean, I'm just wishing he does write in a situation where Kaladin, or any character, has to sacrifice a kid. If it's that of a hero, wow.

 

Sadly, given the morality of certain characters - Taravangian, etc, I could see that actually being something that would happen. *sigh*

 

The initial quote is interesting. It somewhat supports another recent thread talking about Dalinar or Kaladin ascending to Honor. The opportunity is given and refused perhaps?

 

Either way, the unmade in charge of prophecy is amazingly subtle, and doubly effective for such a thing.

 

However, prophecy is NOT of Honor. Clearly of Odium, but according to Honor, also of Cultivation. More mud to wade through. :)

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Well, thing is, that does work. Night reigning does seem like a loss, but defeat isn't necessarily the last word. Especially if SLA is like two series joined together, perhaps with a timeskip.

 

 

I'm not all that sure it would be a loss.  I can't help but think that the one spren specifically associated with the night is the Nightwatcher who is generally thought  to be Cultivation's counterpart to the Stormfather.

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I'm not all that sure it would be a loss.  I can't help but think that the one spren specifically associated with the night is the Nightwatcher who is generally thought  to be Cultivation's counterpart to the Stormfather.

 

The name "Nightwatcher" makes me think of a sentinel against the night, who watches it come. Night in general is associated with bad things - Shallan remarks in TWoK on the "dreaded nightspren".

 

Edit: Also, "The Watcher" would make sense as a title for Cultivation. She was apparently a third party to the war between Odium and Honor.

Edited by Moogle
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The name "Nightwatcher" makes me think of a sentinel against the night, who watches it come. Night in general is associated with bad things - Shallan remarks in TWoK on the "dreaded nightspren".

Indeed, and we know that Midnight Essence is unpleasant stuff. 

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The real issue I have is that the visions have been shown to be imprecise.  Probably the most clear fulfillment of one of the visions is the "True Glory" one.  It used "pit" to refer to refer to the chasms and two dead men.   Vague and imprecise.  I suspect they have been intended to be confusing and perhaps even deceptive.  They are of Odium after all.

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