Nohadon's Order?

[Julio]

I've been reading Oathbringer over the past week, and I just got to Dalinar's Nohadon vision. 

Quote

"Nohadon leaped off the side of the balcony. He laughed falling and sliding along a cloth banner tied between a tower window and a tent below. Dalinar cursed, leaning forward, worried for the old man - until he spotted Nohadon glowing."

Unless I'm very much mistaken, that seems like a very Edgedancer-y thing to do. Edgedancer also fits his other things rather well; he remembers the small. He walked from Abamabar to Urithiru, finding people along the way and watching them. 

But at the same time, I got the impression from the first book that he was a Bondsmith, what with founding the Knights Radiant and all. I looked it up in Arcanum, and sure enough, someone has asked. 

Quote

EHyde

Was Nohadon a bondsmith?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO! Good question.

source

So, which do you think it is?

Edited August 17, 2018 by Julio

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

It IS possible to bond two spren... maybe he was the EDGE case 

[Angsos]

If he founded the radiants, perhaps he's a special case

[Calderis]

We don't know that he founded the Radiants. Just that The Way of Kings was viewed as a inspiration for the Orders. 

Frankly, I would find the book far more meaningful if he wasn't a Surgebinder, and just a good man whose views helped guide other people.

[+Extesian]

I think he was surely a bondsmith (to the extent the order hadn't been invented yet). He's big into uniting. 

An old WoB has tension (which a bondsmith has) as being able to make flexible things stiff with the example given to snap out cloth and make it rigid. Maybe the dude slid down the cloth because he tensioned it. 

Quote

INTERVIEW: Oct 14th, 2013

Steelheart Signing Report - Shardlet(Verbatim)

HOSER

(Speaking of the division surge) Is that a re-framing of, at one point in time you were talking about weak/strong forces?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Um, weak/strong forces, yes, that's the one that sent me there partially. Like, I'm not actually... the idea of the fundamental forces is a cool thing to me so it's not like I'm actually trying to use the weak and strong forces, the idea of there being fundamental forces. I wanted to go off on it in a fancy way. Like this one right here I told them was surface tension. But it's not really surface tension. It's more like um, the people with this could take a piece of cloth and snap it out and it would become hard as if the cloth became steel. I'm trying to explain this scientifically, but it doesn't work scientifically. Imagine as if they could restructure the atoms so that they became a latticework like a crystal rather than being soft like...cloth. I'm calling it surface tension, but it's not really surface tension.

HOSER

Tensile strength?

BRANDON SANDERSON

(hedging) It's kind of like tensile strength. I have to go through Peter and say "Alright Peter, come up with what we should really call this." He does the hard science a lot better than I do. I do the armchair theories and then he goes, "Ok, now this is the math if someone were to actually fall off of this and 0.7 gravity and the weight of the bridge...". (looking back at the chart) So what can I give you that I didn't give her? Um, one of the orders is called Bondsmiths.

https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1078

 

[Julio]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

We don't know that he founded the Radiants. Just that The Way of Kings was viewed as a inspiration for the Orders. 

Frankly, I would find the book far more meaningful if he wasn't a Surgebinder, and just a good man whose views helped guide other people.

I'm afraid that that is not the case. 

Quote

"Nohadon leaped off the side of the balcony. He laughed falling and sliding along a cloth banner tied between a tower window and a tent below. Dalinar cursed, leaning forward, worried for the old man - until he spotted Nohadon glowing. He was a Surgebinder - but Dalinar had known that from the last vision, hadn't he?" 

 

4 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I think he was surely a bondsmith (to the extent the order hadn't been invented yet). He's big into uniting. 

An old WoB has tension (which a bondsmith has) as being able to make flexible things stiff with the example given to snap out cloth and make it rigid. Maybe the dude slid down the cloth because he tensioned it. 

As to the first, I kinda get the impression that the order had already been established, insomuch as various spren were imitating the Heralds honorblades. They didn't have Oaths or a structure yet, however. 

Sure, making things stiff could work... I guess. It seems much more like dancing on the edge, however. 

2 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

It IS possible to bond two spren... maybe he was the EDGE case 

That is actually a really interesting idea. This WoB I came across makes it seem more plausible. 

Quote

Snote85

Is Nohadon a herald. There are tons and tons of little things that make me think this. Like the KR have the Way of Kings to base their views and policies on. Which, as was stated, was written by him. In Dalinar's vision of Nohadon, he says things about surgebindings and implies the man he's speaking to is a leader of an order, like he himself is. We know, from the WoR (In world) excerpts, that all the orders were lead by the heralds, after a time anyway. That's my reasoning, not that you need it, if it's true or not true. I just thought I might clarify why I came to that conclusion.

Brandon Sanderson

Nohadon is not a Herald, but I can see what lead you to think otherwise. Let's just say that even among kings and surgebinders, he was someone special.

source

 

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Julio said:

I'm afraid that that is not the case. 

Nothing about that vision is like the others. The Stormfather denies sending it. 

Quote

“I’m sorry, regardless, for what I did. Were you … involved in that dream I had? The one with Nohadon?”
I know of no such dream.
“It was vivid,” Dalinar said. “More surreal than one of the visions, true, but captivating.”

Nohadon reacts to him personally and addresses things far more than in any other vision. Which his attempts to gain information from the Windrunner in earlier visions should show is not the way they function. 

I don't believe for a second that that vision is showing anything that pertains to the historically real Nohadon. 

For one thing, he responds to the name "Nohadon," which the "real" one in the visions did not recognize. 

Quote

"I cannot lead them,” the man said. “Not if this is what my leadership brings them to.”

“Nohadon.”

The man turned to him, frowning. “What?”

Dalinar paused. Could he be wrong about this man’s identity? But no. The name Nohadon was more of a title. Many famous people in history had been given holy names by the Church, before it was disbanded. Even Bajerden wasn’t likely to be his real name; that was lost in time.

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by Calderis

[Kaladin Zahel]

True, but I want to believe it was a Nohadon sent dream so it would still be accurate. Granted, I have no idea how that's possible.

I don't believe it was simply a dream, as Dalinar is not a very imaginative person.

[Nymeros]

I don't think Nohadan was a Radiant 

[Naurock]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

Nothing about that vision is like the others. The Stormfather denies sending it. 

Nohadon reacts to him personally and addresses things far more than in any other vision. Which his attempts to gain information from the Windrunner in earlier visions should show is not the way they function. 

I don't believe for a second that that vision is showing anything that pertains to the historically real Nohadon. 

For one thing, he responds to the name "Nohadon," which the "real" one in the visions did not recognize. 

 

Seeing this made me just realize Nohadon is almost perfectly symmetrical. IMO, that adds to your thought.

This is why I had posed a question in Q&A of who is Fleet. I believe that Fleet joined the Stormfather as a Cognitive Shadow, essentially as a compartmentalized Spren. Perfectly placed to watch and guide the first budding Bondsmith in their most dire moments of need.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Why couldn’t it have been Odium that sent it? Like he did to T? 

[Spoolofwhool]

13 hours ago, Naurock said:

Seeing this made me just realize Nohadon is almost perfectly symmetrical. IMO, that adds to your thought.

Per Vorinism, Nohadon is perfectly symmetrical since 'h' can be used as a wild character to balance out others while having a different sound. Like Dalinar said though, it isn't his real name, and he shouldn't have responded to it at the time, so whatever that vision was, it was a a lot less real than the ones Honor made.

[Ciridae]

Quote

Questioner

So Nohadon's still alive, right?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO! Why would you say that Nohadon is still alive?

Questioner

I know he's still alive.

Brandon Sanderson

Why would you say he's still alive?

Questioner

It's the perfect trick, that you're gonna bring back Nohadon. It's my feeling about things.

source

I've got a feeling too. Not a lot of evidence, but it wasn't the Stormfather or Honor by extension, it doesn't feel like something Odium would send. Maybe Cultivation? I don't know, but my money is on Nohadon's Cognitive Shadow. 

[Wyndlerunner]

11 hours ago, Ciridae said:

I've got a feeling too. Not a lot of evidence, but it wasn't the Stormfather or Honor by extension, it doesn't feel like something Odium would send. Maybe Cultivation? I don't know, but my money is on Nohadon's Cognitive Shadow. 

I like that questioner.

[Angsos]

Also if Nohadon weren't still alive in some form, why would Brandon RAFO instead of laughing off the question?

[Calderis]

Just now, Angsos said:

Also if Nohadon weren't still alive in some form, why would Brandon RAFO instead of laughing off the question?

Because he does that all the time. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I will be very liberal with the RAFOs. Just because getting pinned down on things like this... I always say, I like to answer questions. I like to give you guys the secrets you want to know. But at the same time, I'm a showman. And where I really want it to come out is in the stories. And so there are a lot of things I'm holding...

For those who don't know, RAFO could mean "This is a secret I want to hold for dramatic purposes in the stories." It could mean "I enjoy the fact that the community is discussing this even though the commonly assumed answer is the right answer. I don't want to canonize something 'cause I don't want to kill the looney theories. Because people who love their looney theories really hold on to them tightly for a long time." It could just mean, "You know what, I haven't thought of that," or "I know I wrote it down somewhere, and I don't want to say it right now because I'll contradict myself later."

source

"I don't want to kill the looney theories." 

[Morsk]

It could be the God Beyond. If the vision were obviously real, I'd think it couldn't be, because the God Beyond is never canon.

The suspicious part for me is that Nohadon says he thinks life is fair, even if people can't always see why. I find this amazingly stupid for anyone to say, unless they're an omnibenevolent God who fixes everything eventually.

I changed my mind. I think it's more likely the Spiritual Realm's "copy" of Nohadon. I can forgive silly ideas about life being fair, since this version of Nohadon is connected to everything, and it's not a real person. The Aimian in the Interlude says some people have magic to draw knowledge from the dead. Dalinar must be one of those people.

I don't like the idea of the God Beyond showing up for multiple pages, anyway. I expect it to maybe have manipulated one thing per book, or maybe not have. Appearing is a bit much.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Morsk

[+Child of Hodor]

 

Quote

 

“He was a good man,” the stormfather said. 

“Nohadon?” Dalinar said.

”yes.” 

Chapter 28, Oathbringer

 

 

It is weird that the Stormfather remembers Nohadon specifically when he doesn't remember much well pre-Honor's death. Makes me think they were bonded.

 

[Skryter]

On 8/18/2018 at 9:13 AM, Calderis said:

Nothing about that vision is like the others. The Stormfather denies sending it. 

Nohadon reacts to him personally and addresses things far more than in any other vision. Which his attempts to gain information from the Windrunner in earlier visions should show is not the way they function. 

I don't believe for a second that that vision is showing anything that pertains to the historically real Nohadon. 

For one thing, he responds to the name "Nohadon," which the "real" one in the visions did not recognize. 

 

I personally think the historical/"true" Nohadon was a Surgebinder, but there evidence both for and against this position. This evidence, as detailed below, will be derived from Dalinar's first vision of Nohadon. I've decided against counting the second because, as many others have pointed out, we really don't know exactly what that is yet.

Quote

He had dark hair pulled back in a braid and a short beard that came to a point. Gold threads were woven into his hair and came together on his forehead to form a golden symbol. the Symbol of the Knights Radiant.

This doesn't suggest either for or against. I've put this here as an emphasis that Nohadon definitely was involved with the order in some manner.

Quote

 

"Our own natures destroy us," the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. "Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren."

 

 

 

This could suggest that Nohadon was a Surgebinder depending on how we interpret the text. When Nohadon says "our own natures destroy us", is he talking about Surgebinders specifically or is he making a general comment on the destructive nature of humanity. I believe it's the former, but it's hard to say.

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"I don't know if we can force them to do anything." Their footsteps echoed in the empty room. Were there no guards, no attendants? "Their power... well, Alakavish proves the allure that Surgebinders have for the common people. If only there were a way to encourage them....:" The man stopped, turning to Dalinar. "They need to be better, old friend. We all do. The responsibility of what we've been given-whether the crown or the Nahel bond-needs to make us better."

Nohadon talks about holding the Surgebinders accountable for their inherently destructive nature. Furthermore, Nohadon makes a distinction between the responsibility of Surgebinders and the responsibility of "the crown". This distinction between the two groups could indicate that Nohadon isn't a Surgebinder, simply a monarch.

Quote

"Perhaps the rest of you are right, perhaps our abilities are proof of a divine election. But if this is true, should we not be more wary of how we act?"

The key words here are "perhaps our abilities are proof of a divine election". Nohadon is using the collective 'our' here, indicating that he belongs to this group. What abilities is Nohadon referring to? You guessed it! Surgebinding.

Quote

You will find difficult getting useful answers, Son of Honor, the Stormfather rumbled. These do not have souls or minds. They are re-creations forged by Honor's will, and do not have the memories of the real people....They were created to convey only certain ideas. Further pressing will merely reveal the thinness of the facade.

And while I do believe that the historical Nohadon, as the evidence suggests (for the most part), was a Surgebinder we have to be aware that the visions Dalinar receives aren't necessarily real. They're constructs. I guess we'll have to wait for these questions to be answered by Brandon or by the text directly.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Skryter
Typo's.

[animalia]

Makes me wonder if we will see anyone else capable of bonding multiple spren in Stormlight Archive. 

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, animalia said:

Makes me wonder if we will see anyone else capable of bonding multiple spren in Stormlight Archive. 

Probably. Biggest issues to get around are: the Spren wouldn't like to share, wouldn't normally choose to bond someone who is already bonding another spren. And that's a lot of Oaths to uphold. 

 

Quote

 

Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)
#1 Share  Copy

Play/Pause

 

Macen

You've pretty much implied yes [to bonding more than one spren].

Brandon Sanderson

I did not say yes.

Questioner

You implied.  <What about> more than one type of spren?  Different types of spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's see what happens.  This is not impossible.  

 

Footnote: Brandon has also stated humans can theoretically bond multiple spren (http://wob.coppermind.net/events/156/#e2841).

 

 

[BeginattheendDie]

I think Nohadon is still alive and is Tarahs father.

[Wyndlerunner]

7 minutes ago, BeginattheendDie said:

I think Nohadon is still alive and is Tarahs father.

Interesting theory, care to explain? 

[BeginattheendDie]

Not a real strong theory , in a Wob someone ask about Tarah and in Brandon's response he says we should pay more attention to her father. In Kaladins flash back Tarah tells Kaladin her father is making his special bread and then in Dalinars dream about Nohadon he talks about how much he enjoys making bread. Also the above Wob where he doesn't say Nohadon is dead makes me think more my theory might be right. 

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, BeginattheendDie said:

Not a real strong theory , in a Wob someone ask about Tarah and in Brandon's response he says we should pay more attention to her father. In Kaladins flash back Tarah tells Kaladin her father is making his special bread and then in Dalinars dream about Nohadon he talks about how much he enjoys making bread. Also the above Wob where he doesn't say Nohadon is dead makes me think more my theory might be right. 

Do you have a link to the WoB? I wasn't able to find it on Arcanum.