Confused

Spren Conspiracy to Steal Young Children

16 posts in this topic

WoB:

 

Q:  “When does a person become a Surgebinder? Because Kaladin talks about when he was a child, about it being a familiar feeling, and Shallan obviously was younger. Or is it when they speak the Words?”


A:  “The bond starts forming before the words are spoken, but if the words are never spoken that bond will eventually evaporate and get broken. But the bond will start forming before. Just like an emotion attracts a spren, acting in the way that the spren you would eventually bond will start drawing them toward you and that will start to create that bond.”

 

So the spren steal into youth beds to check these children out, and if they like what they feel about the child, they “bond” with them. Isn’t that illegal?

 

 

EDIT: All right already! I'm sorry! I never thought this post would be so controversial! Mea culpa, mea culpa, maxima mea culpa. I'm home sick this week and obviously lost my head...

Edited by Confused
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It's a symbiotic relationship. Spren don't cause any harm to children, physical or otherwise.

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Do not worry, these spren aren't catholic priests.

PS: Oh man, I'm gonna get downvoted to oblivion for that.

Edit: I'm sorry that I've offended some of you guys. I should have realized that some people aren't accustomed to a bit of dark humor and are taking their religion very seriously.

Edited by HydrogenAlpha
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Do not worry, these spren aren't catholic priests.

PS: Oh man, I'm gonna get downvoted to oblivion for that.

 

While in bad taste the joke is a little poetic. Elantris does deal a lot with the issues surrounding religion gone bad.

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Who gave me my first downvotes ever? All I did was quote Brandon.

 

And another WoB says that using more magic is “like wedging open cracks”:

 

Q:  “What other magic systems in the Cosmere have that same kind of if you use it a lot it gets better?”


A:  “It is a little bit more like wedging open cracks in the soul by letting the Investiture come in, and it can open the cracks more.”
 

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Who gave me my first downvotes ever? All I did was quote Brandon.

 

Well, you are comparing spren--a group which comprises many reader's favorite characters--to child molesters, the most universally hated people in the world. The quotes you gave don't really make me think of anything creepy. Spren seek out people who embody traits that they approve of, and seek to form loving and mutually beneficial relationships with them. This is a far cry from pedophiles, whose actions are inherently self-centered and damaging to their targets.

 

EDIT: Fixed double-quote.

Edited by Kobold King
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Well, you are comparing spren--a group which comprises many reader's favorite characters--to child molesters, the most universally hated people in the world. The quotes you gave don't really make me think of anything creepy. Spren seek out people who embody traits that they approve of, and seek to form loving and mutually beneficial relationships with them. This is a far cry from pedophiles, whose actions are inherently self-centered and damaging to their targets.

 

Not to take any sort of position here on pedophiles, but you don't find it the least bit creepy when Wyndle says

“You realize that I didn’t choose you,” he said, a face appearing in the vines as they moved. His speaking left a strange effect, the trail behind him clotted with a sequence of frozen faces. The mouth seemed to move because it was growing so quickly beside her. “I wanted to pick a distinguished Iriali matron. A grandmother, an accomplished gardener. But no, the Ring said we should choose you. ‘She has visited the Old Magic,’ they said. ‘Our mother has blessed her,’ they said. ‘She will be young, and we can mold her,’ they said. Well, they don’t have to put up with—”

?

 

He's bonded to a child, and says a group of spren (including him) are going to work to manipulate Lift into the sort of person they want to be. I love Wyndle, but I think there's an argument to be made that this is questionable and a little bit creepy.

Edited by Moogle
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I think that in a humorous light one can find this creepy, but in reality, these are spren we're talking about. They work totally differently than we do. Plus, childhood seems to be the perfect time to begin the bonding process. Children are certainly the most idealistic. The good traits portrayed as a child can easily stay such in an adult. If I were a bonding spren, I would go to a child, so I could nurture him or her and help them come into the ideal of my order. If spren looked to adults, they would find people who were a little more corrupted with the world. But, to use the wise words of Lift, children are so storming pure they practically belch rainbows.

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There is something nefarious going on in the bond. Its symbiotic, to a point. Spren have an agenda and that agenda may not be in line with those they bond with. The like on the back of WoR strongly implies that there will be conflict involved with spren widening the cracks that they fill in.

Hell, we already see that in Shallan's story; pretty strongly even. Pattern is a big part of why Shallans family destroyed itself, and its quite possible the possibility of this destruction was part of the reason Sallan was chosen.

There's also a reason the KR broke all their bonds at once and walked away. Tip the symbiosis scale too far and the weaker side might look for a way out...

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Not to take any sort of position here on pedophiles, but you don't find it the least bit creepy when Wyndle says

?

 

He's bonded to a child, and says he's going to work to manipulate and mold her into the sort of person they want to be. I love Wyndle, but I think it's hard not to see this as just a little bit creepy.

I see your point, but I personally didn't see anything particularly creepy about it until I saw what other people said on the forums.

 

He is trying to guide Lift through certain life choices. But could not the same be said of Lirin, trying to raise Kal as a surgeon? Wyndle does not harm Lift in any way, and Lift still has access to her own free will. My interpretation was that the spren merely wished to teach her and prepare her for the Desolations.

 

I guess in summary, the quote taken out of context appears creepy, but seeing what Wyndle actually does in connection to Lift clears me of any doubts as to the spren's pure intentions.

 

 

I think that in a humorous light one can find this creepy, but in reality, these are spren we're talking about. They work totally differently than we do. Plus, childhood seems to be the perfect time to begin the bonding process. Children are certainly the most idealistic. The good traits portrayed as a child can easily stay such in an adult. If I were a bonding spren, I would go to a child, so I could nurture him or her and help them come into the ideal of my order. If spren looked to adults, they would find people who were a little more corrupted with the world. But, to use the wise words of Lift, children are so storming pure they practically belch rainbows.

I agree with Grey Pilgrim. Comparing spren to child molesters is ascribing human faults and motivations to what is essentially an alien species. To me, the fact that spren prefer to bond young humans isn't any creepier than the fact that young children are more likely to be adopted.

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He is trying to guide Lift through certain life choices. But could not the same be said of Lirin, trying to raise Kal as a surgeon? Wyndle does not harm Lift in any way, and Lift still has access to her own free will. My interpretation was that the spren merely wished to teach her and prepare her for the Desolations.

 

I think the comparison to Lirin is a good one, but the situations are different enough that I'd like to expand on them.

  • Lirin had access to Kal for only a relatively small amount of time. Spren are around you 24/7 for life, and they have a vested interest in literally every moral decision you make. Kaladin did not make his decision to save Dalinar on his own - he was pushed to it in part by Syl. Lirin does not have the ability to attempt to mold Kaladin in real-time like that.
  • Kaladin could run away from home any time he wanted, theoretically. There'd be no real negative consequences for Lirin - but if Kaladin no longer wants to obey his oaths, he literally condemns Syl to an eternity of torment. So... he's sort of trapped, unless he wants to be responsible for that. While I am not saying Syl is like this, you can compare this to an abusive boyfriend/girlfriend threatening suicide if you leave them.
  • Kaladin and other Surgebinders are literally addicted to Stormlight. (I have a WoB on this, if wanted.) He has yet another motivation to follow his spren's urgings, so as to not lose his fix.
  • Lirin wants Kaladin to act a certain way because it's what he feels is the right thing to do and he wants Kaladin to have a nice life. Nahel spren want their Surgebinders to act a certain way because that's the only way they get to be on the Physical and gain whatever benefits the bond gives them, and also because if the Surgebinders act differently they will die. There's different motivations between Lirin and Syl, though I'm sure Syl cares for Kaladin as well.

So yes, while there are similarities, a sprenbond influences you a lot more than a parent could hope to. Kaladin has 'free will', yes, but then, so does someone being influenced by emotional Allomancy.

 

Here's a question: why do spren bond humans? What does Syl gain from her bond to Kaladin? A bit of intelligence, sure, but it's obvious that spren are intelligent pre-bonding as well. Bonding to a human is attractive enough that no Nahel spren would consider bonding with a listener, and the majorities of Nahel spren were bonded pre-Recreance.

 

I feel like it's possible that the spren have ulterior motives. And the Knights Radiant, the most honorable group of people in the Cosmere in all likelyhood, condemned their spren to an eternity of torment. I want to know why.

 

I don't feel like Syl or Wyndle are anything but honest in their intentions. I like them. I just find things a little bit... worrisome, is all. It's enough for me to say that I wouldn't want to be a Surgebinder if I was offered the opportunity. I'll stick to Feruchemy, thanks.

Edited by Moogle
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Here's a question: why do spren bond humans? What does Syl gain from her bond to Kaladin? A bit of intelligence, sure, but it's obvious that spren are intelligent pre-bonding as well. Bonding to a human is attractive enough that no Nahel spren would consider bonding with a listener, and the majorities of Nahel spren were bonded pre-Recreance.

 

I feel like it's possible that the spren have ulterior motives. And the Knights Radiant, the most honorable group of people in the Cosmere in all likelyhood, condemned their spren to an eternity of torment. I want to know why.

 

 

I'm in agreement with you here.  I think there's something definitely odd going on with the spren.

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Spren are intelligent in the Cognitive Realm pre-bond. In the Physical, they're shadows, unable to interact, much less think. Human bonds give them full access to this Realm. What that tells me is that some spren might take such a thing too far and attempt to completely usurp the bondmate's cognitive self entirely. This may be an answer to why Nalan is an emotionless justice machine. Imagine a spren in a man-suit...

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I'd like to reiterate... bond farming. I fully expect to find out that at least some of the spren intentionally broke their charges (not necessarily the specific spren that bonded), and that that's the revelation that caused the Recreance. It's clear the spren highly value the bond, and when there's a scarcity of something that's valuable...well, ask the chasmfiends.

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I'll be honest, when I first read the title, I thought of faeries of the old tales and spren do actually have some similarities to them if you think about it. Different natures from humans but (at least some) seem to be incredibly curious about humans and what makes them tick. They come from a different realm with different rules and have their own agendas. They have deals with humans, though of a different nature than the kind of general idea of faeries we have now.

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The way I see it spren definitely have their own agenda. Maybe the humans figured out what it was resulting in the recreance.

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