Sherlock Holmes

Ask Axelius Anything* (AKA Sanderson vs. Tolkien Duel)

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*Don't be ridiculous.

This is the Sanderson versus Tolkien duel. Participate at your own risk.

Edited by AxeliustheGreat
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Brandon Sanderson and J.R.R.Tolkien are in an arena. They're dueling, Pokemon style, but using characters from their books instead of animated creatures. They don't stop until someone has all of their characters defeated. Every. Single. One.

Who would win?

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*Laughs incredulously for several hours before calming down enough to answer*

Tolkien, obviously. He has Ea, creator of the universe, all of the Maiar and Ainur, plus the giant eagles, Tom Bombadil, Ents, and the Wizards (some of which are the Maiar). What's a few spren-enhanced Knights Radiant and Shards next to that? God-to-god, Adonalsium would shrivel up and die under the power of Ea and his Ainur.

Edited by AxeliustheGreat
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2 hours ago, AxeliustheGreat said:

*Laughs incredulously for several hours before calming down enough to answer*

Tolkien, obviously. He has Ea, creator of the universe, all of the Maiar and Ainur, plus the giant eagles, Tom Bombadil, Ents, and the Wizards (some of which are the Maiar). What's a few spren-enhanced Knights Radiant and Shards next to that? God-to-god, Adonalsium would shrivel up and die under the power of Ea and his Ainur.

I don't know man, most of Ainur would be chump next to a shard. And the Wizards, when were they ever that useful? Sure Gandalf fought a Balrog, but Kaladin killed a Chasm fiend which would effortlessly devour a Balrog. I think Chasmfiends could probably even take Dragons. Except for maybe one of the bigger ones. But wait, a Skybreaker or Windrunner could outmaneuver dragons in the air, and turn them to mincemeat with Shardblades. 

And don't even get me started about what The Lord Ruler could do anyone who opposed him

 

Spoiler

This got a bit more aggressive the farther I went

 

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*Repeats laughter* 

Welp, you clearly have never read the Silmarillion. Ea created the entire universe. Adonalsium created maybe 20 planets, at most. 

And to what you said about chasmfiends, hahaha. Balrogs are Melkor's generals, while chasmfiends are literally just wild animals. Dragons and giants eagles would have superior fliers and fighters as compared to Knights Radiant. Keep in mind that we're talking about the characters whose names have been explicitly stated. On Tolkien's side, we have an army of massive, fire-breathing dragons and frickin' Tom Bombadil, and on Sanderson's side we have a few 3rd Ideal Knights Radiant that would be burnt to a crisp within a second of encountering a dragon, and four Mistborn. The Witch-king of Angmar could probably kill a Bondsmith spren while Ea could destroy everything else with a flick of his fingers. Anyway, the Shards are all little bits of Adonalsium and half of them are already Splintered. 

Fight that logic.

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16 hours ago, AxeliustheGreat said:

*Repeats laughter* 

Welp, you clearly have never read the Silmarillion. Ea created the entire universe. Adonalsium created maybe 20 planets, at most. 

And to what you said about chasmfiends, hahaha. Balrogs are Melkor's generals, while chasmfiends are literally just wild animals. Dragons and giants eagles would have superior fliers and fighters as compared to Knights Radiant. Keep in mind that we're talking about the characters whose names have been explicitly stated. On Tolkien's side, we have an army of massive, fire-breathing dragons and frickin' Tom Bombadil, and on Sanderson's side we have a few 3rd Ideal Knights Radiant that would be burnt to a crisp within a second of encountering a dragon, and four Mistborn. The Witch-king of Angmar could probably kill a Bondsmith spren while Ea could destroy everything else with a flick of his fingers. Anyway, the Shards are all little bits of Adonalsium and half of them are already Splintered. 

Fight that logic.

I'm sorry, but have you seen how big Chasmfiends are? Balrogs are tiny compared to Chasmfiends. Balrogs are to Chasmfiends as humans are to Dragons. Oh, and Dragons being better fighters than Flying Knight Radiants? Dragons are terrible at flying, they are too big to efficiently. Kaladin could turn them to mincemeat in the sky. And let's say a dragon somehow managed to hit him, what would that do? Stormlight healing frees that up instantly. Sure an eagle could maneuver well in the sky, but they have no ability to attack from afar. The would grab them, then boom a shardblade cleaves through them. 

And you neglected to respond to this, who could fight The Lord Ruler short of a god. Anything that even has a physical form would fall to him. 

And we don't even know the scale of power that Adonalsium possesses, but it is by no means small. The Valar would fall to Ruin and Odium. And Harmony is stronger than either of them. 

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Well, this should be... fun?

*pulls out popcorn*

 

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3 minutes ago, Grey Knight said:

Well, this should be... fun?

*pulls out popcorn*

Quote

*grabs some of his popcorn*

If I remember the last time correctly @AxeliustheGreat started arguing about Tolkien it took a while.

 

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Good thing I brought extra :lol:

*pulls out second bag of popcorn*

 

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Mmm, Silmarillion.  What's your favorite chapter in The Silmarillion?

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My favorite chapter of the Silmarillion is the Beren one. 

@King Cole, Balrogs are the literal devil's generals. Have you ever seen the picture of a Balrog in the 2nd Edition of The Fellowship of the Ring? No? That's what I thought. Balrogs are to chasmfiends as humans are to elves. 

I know Brandon makes Radiants sound like they're invincible, but they're not. If Kaladin got hit by a dragon's fire, he'd be incinerated. Because dragons. Also, the Eagles have power beyond that of mortals. They were created with about the same amount of power as Ents, which would have an equal equivalent of Investiture as Nightblood has. 

The Valar would be equal to the Shards, no question to it. Melkor and Sauron (if he possessed the Ring of Power) could take out Odium and Ruin, while the other Valar, being more capable of teamwork than Shards, could obliterate the other Shards. 

Once again, Ea created the entire universe. He could sing a quick sonata and destroy TLR and Harmony with a bare flexing of his pinky finger. Also, the Shards have a notable problem, that of being isolated and often incapable of working together. Melkor, Sauron, the Balrogs, the Ringwaiths, the Dragons, and an army of, say, 500 thousand orcs could work on half of the problem, while Ea, the rest of the Valar, the Maiar, the Ents, the Eagles, Elves, Dwarves, Men, Hobbits, etc. could work on the other half. 

Try me.

The comment wars have begun.

Edited by AxeliustheGreat
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Hm I kind of agree with @King Cole. I think Ea and Adonalsium have about equal power. The shards each have the powers of God's, able to destroy or create planets. I think they could take the Valar. And you never mentioned the Epics or (reckoner spoilers):

Spoiler

Calamity, who has insane amounts of power.

 

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Rithmatists as well. And oculators. And knights of crystalia. And giant mechs. And cults of evil librarians.

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Brandon Sanderson might win based on numbers alone. Tolkien’s one world vs Sanderson’s many. But then again, Tolkien does have massively powered characters, while Sanderson’s seem to include more limitations.

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21 hours ago, AxeliustheGreat said:

My favorite chapter of the Silmarillion is the Beren one. 

@King Cole, Balrogs are the literal devil's generals. Have you ever seen the picture of a Balrog in the 2nd Edition of The Fellowship of the Ring? No? That's what I thought. Balrogs are to chasmfiends as humans are to elves. 

I know Brandon makes Radiants sound like they're invincible, but they're not. If Kaladin got hit by a dragon's fire, he'd be incinerated. Because dragons. Also, the Eagles have power beyond that of mortals. They were created with about the same amount of power as Ents, which would have an equal equivalent of Investiture as Nightblood has. 

The Valar would be equal to the Shards, no question to it. Melkor and Sauron (if he possessed the Ring of Power) could take out Odium and Ruin, while the other Valar, being more capable of teamwork than Shards, could obliterate the other Shards. 

Once again, Ea created the entire universe. He could sing a quick sonata and destroy TLR and Harmony with a bare flexing of his pinky finger. Also, the Shards have a notable problem, that of being isolated and often incapable of working together. Melkor, Sauron, the Balrogs, the Ringwaiths, the Dragons, and an army of, say, 500 thousand orcs could work on half of the problem, while Ea, the rest of the Valar, the Maiar, the Ents, the Eagles, Elves, Dwarves, Men, Hobbits, etc. could work on the other half. 

Try me.

The comment wars have begun.

Dude Balrogs are tiny. Chasmfiends are bigger than Dragons and are covered in near invincible armor. Balrogs can burn them a bit, but whats that actually gonna do? 

And so what that eagles have power beyond that of mortals, a sharblade is still going to cleave through them. Ents would fall similarly. All it takes is enough fire, and many epics can produce that kind of flame. 

Nice try avoiding the problem of TLR by putting him up against Ea. However, TLR could kill every single being besides the Valar simultaneously. He could literally kill them all at the same time with minimal effort. 

Also, you think Sauran could fight Ruin or Odium? Even with the ring of power he is a chump, he couldn’t hurt a god. Melkor would be a challenge, but lets not forget Odium has experience in killing gods.

Hordes of orcs, elves, dwarfs, and humans, and hobbits? You think they could actually do anything? Sure orcs would be mildly intimidating, but you think they have anything on Koloss? Not even a little bit. Then you have Mistborn. They are easily worth 100 soldiers each, and would kill many times that number before they fall. The inhabitants of middle earth use metal weapons. Thats not gonna help against a Mistborn. Then we have 100s of Shardbearers. If they fought together they would be unstoppable. Then you factor in the many Radiants. They would win this ground war easily.

 

And Ents having power close to Nightblood? They aren’t even close. Nightblood would kill them in a single touch. 

 

Hmm, anything I’m forgetting? Oh yeah. Elantris. Elantrians can do better magic than any of the 5 wizards, and there sre many of them? 

 

And how can we not mention Taldain’s diverse wildlife of giant Sandlings. And Mastrells using sand to fly and kill 100s of foot soldiers. 

Do I even have to start on the technological difference?

 

Face it, Tolkien would lose brutally in the ground war. 

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I don't even know where to start. 

Everything you just wrote is ridiculous. 

I stand corrected on one matter. Balrogs are about twice the size of elves, though I think it's safe to assume that they can change their size. However, Feanor, the Forger of the Silmarils, was killed by one. Not impressed? You should be. He was recorded to be the greatest smith ever, and the guy who forged the path to Middle-earth as leader. Not the wisest of dudes, I'll admit, but nonetheless one of the most skilled bros of all time. Back to Balrogs. They were created by Melkor as his generals, and are demons of fire. Chasmfiends are wild animals with nice armor, and so have no chance in battle against things that have the flame-whips that can burn through anything.

Second of all, you misspelled 'Sauron' as 'Sauran.' Clearly, you are well-versed in Tolkien theory. Have you read the Silmarillion, bruh? Wizards can basically do whatever they want because they are awesome. Sauron is a beast; he could probably fight 5 Mistborn at once. Ya know why? Because the Ring adapts itself to the inherent power of the being that holds it, and then magnifies that power a hundredfold. Bilbo only used it, if you can even call it that, since it can manipulate the minds of pretty much any sentient life form, to turn himself invisible a few times, while Frodo also used it for invisibility, but even once used it to see the lay of the land, you could say. Hobbits are, statistically, the lowest sentient life form of Arda. Sauron is a Maiar under the eternal service of Melkor, the literal devil, and is thus WAY WAY WAY more powerful. The only beings above the Maiar are the Valar, roughly equivalent to Shards in power, and the creator of the universe, Ea. Think about that for a moment. Really think. 

Melkor is also a Valar. He is, in fact, the most powerful of the Valar, and it took all of the forces of the other Valar to cast him into the Timeless Void, after they slew many Balrogs and Dragons and orcs. Notably, he did not die, as he cannot. Melkor was capable of draining the life of the Two Trees of Valinor with Ungoliant the Spider Queen, the mother of Shelob, who became known as the Queen of Darkness.

Oh my god, you think that an Elantrian could beat five wizards? Yeah, yeah, just go on thinking that. I'd like to point out an event that occurred during the Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers. Legolas, Aragorn, and Gimli are walking through Fangorn Forest, and they think they see Saruman sitting nearby, up the side of a cliff. It's actually Gandalf, who had just become the White Wizard. Legolas shoots an arrow; Legolas never misses. This would have killed an Elantrian, because their reaction time is not faster than one of Legolas's arrows. However, Gandalf turns the arrow into literal flames just before it hits him. He doesn't have to recite an incantation, or draw silly patterns anywhere. The arrow just turns to flames by the liberty of him thinking. Tolkien never wrote exactly what wizards could do; it wasn't necessary. Any given wizard, whether it be Gandalf or Saruman or Galadriel could just think and have a beautiful deli sandwich appear in the hands of every soldier in their entire army. An Elantrian could beat five wizards? More like one wizard could beat 500 Elantrians. While the Elantrians would be painting pretty pictures in the air, the wizard could just burn them all to ashes, ashes that he or she could then summon a small burst of wind to blow away. Hypothetically, an Elantrian could draw an Aon fast enough to attack. What would they do? Explode a wizard with Aon Daa? Keep in mind, it took a Balrog to take down Gandalf. Even then, he didn't die. He fell to the bottom of the earth, and then ascended stairs that led to the highest peaks of the Misty Mountains, and then fought one of Melkor's generals, a Balrog. A Balrog! He fought and killed a Balrog after climbing what must have been a near infinite amount of stairs completely naked. After that, he was reborn as the White Wizard, courtesy of Ea, no doubt. The other wizards are all also very powerful; Galadriel was born before the First Age, her mother was Earwen, whose father was possibly Firstborn. She's probably at least ten thousand years old, almost a Maiar in power, while Elantrians just pop up all over the place once in while. 

 

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On 8/18/2018 at 8:41 AM, AxeliustheGreat said:

Melkor and Sauron (if he possessed the Ring of Power) could take out Odium and Ruin

32 minutes ago, AxeliustheGreat said:

Sauron is a beast; he could probably fight 5 Mistborn at once.

 

Not really going to comment on my thoughts on the actual outcome here but either Sauron would have been completely meaningless in that initial match up or you're suggesting that a Shard of Adonalsium only has as much power as 5 Mistborn.

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2 hours ago, AxeliustheGreat said:

I don't even know where to start. 

Everything you just wrote is ridiculous. 

I stand corrected on one matter. Balrogs are about twice the size of elves, though I think it's safe to assume that they can change their size. However, Feanor, the Forger of the Silmarils, was killed by one. Not impressed? You should be. He was recorded to be the greatest smith ever, and the guy who forged the path to Middle-earth as leader. Not the wisest of dudes, I'll admit, but nonetheless one of the most skilled bros of all time. Back to Balrogs. They were created by Melkor as his generals, and are demons of fire. Chasmfiends are wild animals with nice armor, and so have no chance in battle against things that have the flame-whips that can burn through anything.

Second of all, you misspelled 'Sauron' as 'Sauran.' Clearly, you are well-versed in Tolkien theory. Have you read the Silmarillion, bruh? Wizards can basically do whatever they want because they are awesome. Sauron is a beast; he could probably fight 5 Mistborn at once. Ya know why? Because the Ring adapts itself to the inherent power of the being that holds it, and then magnifies that power a hundredfold. Bilbo only used it, if you can even call it that, since it can manipulate the minds of pretty much any sentient life form, to turn himself invisible a few times, while Frodo also used it for invisibility, but even once used it to see the lay of the land, you could say. Hobbits are, statistically, the lowest sentient life form of Arda. Sauron is a Maiar under the eternal service of Melkor, the literal devil, and is thus WAY WAY WAY more powerful. The only beings above the Maiar are the Valar, roughly equivalent to Shards in power, and the creator of the universe, Ea. Think about that for a moment. Really think. 

Melkor is also a Valar. He is, in fact, the most powerful of the Valar, and it took all of the forces of the other Valar to cast him into the Timeless Void, after they slew many Balrogs and Dragons and orcs. Notably, he did not die, as he cannot. Melkor was capable of draining the life of the Two Trees of Valinor with Ungoliant the Spider Queen, the mother of Shelob, who became known as the Queen of Darkness.

Oh my god, you think that an Elantrian could beat five wizards? Yeah, yeah, just go on thinking that. I'd like to point out an event that occurred during the Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers. Legolas, Aragorn, and Gimli are walking through Fangorn Forest, and they think they see Saruman sitting nearby, up the side of a cliff. It's actually Gandalf, who had just become the White Wizard. Legolas shoots an arrow; Legolas never misses. This would have killed an Elantrian, because their reaction time is not faster than one of Legolas's arrows. However, Gandalf turns the arrow into literal flames just before it hits him. He doesn't have to recite an incantation, or draw silly patterns anywhere. The arrow just turns to flames by the liberty of him thinking. Tolkien never wrote exactly what wizards could do; it wasn't necessary. Any given wizard, whether it be Gandalf or Saruman or Galadriel could just think and have a beautiful deli sandwich appear in the hands of every soldier in their entire army. An Elantrian could beat five wizards? More like one wizard could beat 500 Elantrians. While the Elantrians would be painting pretty pictures in the air, the wizard could just burn them all to ashes, ashes that he or she could then summon a small burst of wind to blow away. Hypothetically, an Elantrian could draw an Aon fast enough to attack. What would they do? Explode a wizard with Aon Daa? Keep in mind, it took a Balrog to take down Gandalf. Even then, he didn't die. He fell to the bottom of the earth, and then ascended stairs that led to the highest peaks of the Misty Mountains, and then fought one of Melkor's generals, a Balrog. A Balrog! He fought and killed a Balrog after climbing what must have been a near infinite amount of stairs completely naked. After that, he was reborn as the White Wizard, courtesy of Ea, no doubt. The other wizards are all also very powerful; Galadriel was born before the First Age, her mother was Earwen, whose father was possibly Firstborn. She's probably at least ten thousand years old, almost a Maiar in power, while Elantrians just pop up all over the place once in while. 

 

Bro i read the Silmarrilion. 

And in order for a Balrog to be even close to the size of a Chasmfiend, it would have to grow at least 10 times larger. Whips and Swords of fire are effective weapons, but the can’t make up for the raw size difference. And just because a Balrog killed an Elven Craftsman doesn’t mean it can compare to the juggernaut that is a Chasmfiend. And not to mention that there are many Chasmfiend.

 

damnation you massively overvalue Wizards. We have literally never seen any impressive feat of magic from any of them. The fact that Gandalf carries a sword is testament to his skill as a Wizard.   No wizard worth their salt needs a sword. And Gandalf did die with that Balrog, he was resurrected. And let’s not forget this was a Wizard aided by one of the rings. Even with one of the rings of power, he still fell against a simple Balrog

 

Sure Malkor is crazy strong, but Odium has proven himself to be able to efficiently murder gods. He killed Devotion and Dominion at the same time. If any thing could destroy Melkor, It’s Odium and Ruin. 

 

And I’ll concede the point that Elantrians don’t match up to wizards, but there are many of them, and few Wizards. The wizards would be easily overrun.

 

 

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@AxeliustheGreat There is no doubt that Balrogs are strong. That’s set in stone, but chasmfiends are MASSIVE. It took two Shardbearers (three if we count Elhokar) with full armor and around a battalion to take 1 chasmfiend down. A comparison of sheer size would be a Balrog is a semi-truck tall to roughly the size of half a cruise ship, in length.

Melkor is very, very strong and if we’re using your comparison that Valar are roughly equivalent to Shards in power, then the assumption that Odium could take down Melkor is reasonable. Odium is no ordinary shard. Odium has almost  effortlessly taken out multiple shards without having severe detriments to his capabilities.  He killed Honor with about the same amount of effort as he did when he killed the other two Shards. 

Wizards are powerful and would  overpower an Elantrian in most cases. However, we see that the Elantrians in Teod were able to draw them relatively quick. And while wizards will overpower 9/10 times, a well practiced Elantrian could, MAYBE, put up a fight. 

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*laughs maniacally* 

Odium, eh? You know what what Odium does? He creates spren that can control people's emotions. You know what Melkor can do? Literally anything he feels like. He can overpower the LotR Adonalsium. Something special about this world is that the Valar aren't little bits of Ea; they're copies of parts of his power. The Shards are bits of Adonalsium, not copies. This leaves LotR with a great advantage. Also, Melkor has planning and betrayal experience as well as armies that greatly surpass the numbers of Odium's. 

Kaladin was a normal dude with a Shardblade when he beat the chasmfiend. Balrogs could walk up and chop a chasmfiend's head off, then mount it on their cave wall as a hunting trophy. The whips of fire are more powerful than a wild animal's scales. 

Allow me to remind you that we are talking about only named characters. That would leave you with a few Elantrians, some Allomancers/Feruchemists/Hemalurgists, a couple of Awakeners, and about twenty Voidbinders/Surgebinders. 

Let me note that Sauron is a Maiar, and he created many Rings of Power. But, Celebrimbor created three non-corrupt Rings by himself, with magical essence in them. If a mere elf has that much power, think about how much a wizard would have. 

I can see that arguing further is pointless, as your beliefs are obviously set in stone and you won't even consider some of the very true things I write, so I adjourn this debate. 

Any questions? 

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I mean Odium also kills other gods pretty much for a living, he's literally the manifestation of divine wrath. Not weighing in on the discussion either way still but let's be honest and not ignore what characters are. Odium is no more just a guy who can make spren than Gandalf is some guy who makes fireworks.

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56 minutes ago, AxeliustheGreat said:

*laughs maniacally* 

Odium, eh? You know what what Odium does? He creates spren that can control people's emotions. You know what Melkor can do? Literally anything he feels like. He can overpower the LotR Adonalsium. Something special about this world is that the Valar aren't little bits of Ea; they're copies of parts of his power. The Shards are bits of Adonalsium, not copies. This leaves LotR with a great advantage. Also, Melkor has planning and betrayal experience as well as armies that greatly surpass the numbers of Odium's. 

Kaladin was a normal dude with a Shardblade when he beat the chasmfiend. Balrogs could walk up and chop a chasmfiend's head off, then mount it on their cave wall as a hunting trophy. The whips of fire are more powerful than a wild animal's scales. 

Allow me to remind you that we are talking about only named characters. That would leave you with a few Elantrians, some Allomancers/Feruchemists/Hemalurgists, a couple of Awakeners, and about twenty Voidbinders/Surgebinders. 

Let me note that Sauron is a Maiar, and he created many Rings of Power. But, Celebrimbor created three non-corrupt Rings by himself, with magical essence in them. If a mere elf has that much power, think about how much a wizard would have. 

I can see that arguing further is pointless, as your beliefs are obviously set in stone and you won't even consider some of the very true things I write, so I adjourn this debate. 

Any questions? 

Odium making Spren? If you think that even slightly describes him then you are delusional. 

Also, Sauron didn’t create those rings of power on his own. He created them with Celembrimbor. Sauron simply corrupted the rings. 

 

And one last time, do you still have no answer for TLR? He could singlehandedly kill all of the Wizards, Nazguls, Dragons, Balrogs, Eagles, and Elves. Not to mention he could do this without moving and in less than a second

 

Edit: Also, even if Balrog’s could shear through Chasmfiend’s armor, they would be physically unable to behead them. This isn’t a matter of strength, its a matter of size

Edited by King Cole
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@Archer You have started a war that has no end in sight.

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TLR was beaten by a Mistborn with the help of Fuzz. A wizard could destroy him. 

A Balrog could simply wave his whip through the chasmfiend's neck. It's the fire of death itself. 

Meeting adjourned. 

 

Gandalf does make fireworks. 

Edited by AxeliustheGreat
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