+Child of Hodor Posted August 22, 2018 Report Share Posted August 22, 2018 12 minutes ago, Calderis said: The Stormfather refers to himself as a Sliver, and he is technically correct in that he contains a Sliver in the form of Tanavast's shadow... That said... It's paraphrased, and it calls the WoB into question, because his nature as a spren means he is inherently a Splinter, and was so before absorbing the shadow of Tanavast. Depending on which piece of him your talking about, both would apply, but I think that Sliver is mostly incorrect. The human mind of Tanavast seems to be mostly gone. Stormfather is a strange case. It's unclear if the cognitive shadow of Tanavast is even separable from the spren portion at this point or if they've merged together completely as one being. It's weird (but necessary for plot reasons) that Stormfather doesn't have Tanavast's memories. It's like Tanavast's cognitive shadow is asleep in there and wakes up occasionally to say "Unite Them" in Dalinar's head . Maybe by virtue of Stormfather as a being of the cognitive realm there wasn't much space for Tanavast's mind, or it was badly damaged in the crossover a la what happens to Spren when they come over. Except the shadow can't recover from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MountainKing Posted August 22, 2018 Report Share Posted August 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said: Stormfather is a strange case. It's unclear if the cognitive shadow of Tanavast is even separable from the spren portion at this point or if they've merged together completely as one being. It's weird (but necessary for plot reasons) that Stormfather doesn't have Tanavast's memories. It's like Tanavast's cognitive shadow is asleep in there and wakes up occasionally to say "Unite Them" in Dalinar's head . Maybe by virtue of Stormfather as a being of the cognitive realm there wasn't much space for Tanavast's mind, or it was badly damaged in the crossover a la what happens to Spren when they come over. Except the shadow can't recover from it. Plot Twist, Dalinar's champion will be a Tanavast with a restored body. And that's how Odium loses by receiving the Almighty. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanghur Rahl Posted August 22, 2018 Report Share Posted August 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, MountainKing said: Plot Twist, Dalinar's champion will be a Tanavast with a restored body. And that's how Odium loses by receiving the Almighty. Well it worked for a certain megalomaniac with a god-complex, so who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Child of Hodor Posted August 22, 2018 Report Share Posted August 22, 2018 1 minute ago, MountainKing said: Plot Twist, Dalinar's champion will be a Tanavast with a restored body. And that's how Odium loses by receiving the Almighty. Haha Dalinar gets all college dorm room philosopher "Hey man, in a way we're all, like, one being ... I choose all living things on Roshar as my champion ... man." Tanavast's cognitive shadow is like John Lennon's ghost in the '90s SNL sketch. "What if you're dead and I'm alive?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scion of the Mists Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 22 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said: Honestly, stipulating that only a human can be a Sliver seems completely arbitrary to me. Sapient Spren are ‘people’ by any meaningful definition too after all, so why couldn’t a Spren be a sliver? It’s always been a distinction that doesn’t make much sense to me. I'm assuming that "human" really refers to sapient physical being (including dragons and Sho Del). There is a big difference between a splinter and a person: a splinter is just a hunk of Investiture. While it may gain sentience or sapience, it's not a physical being. Thus it can't hold a Shard, because it is itself a piece of a Shard. As Brandon explains in the WoB I linked before, splinters would just get absorbed into the larger whole. So if you kept infusing a splinter with Investiture, it would become a larger and larger splinter until eventually it would be big enough to be considered a "whole" Shard. A Sliver, by contrast is "someone who has had their mind, body, and spirit expanded due to holding a great deal of power, and then have had that power leave." It's a term that refers to people who have temporarily held a large enough chunk of a Shards power to be permanently altered by it. See also, this WoB: Quote Zach Also, would the Elantrians and the Lerasium-mistings be considered Slivers? Or is just the Lord Ruler and Vin Slivers (Via the Well)? Or do you need more power to be considered a Sliver? Brandon Sanderson Elantrians are not slivers. Mistborn trilogy spoiler warnings follow! The Lord Ruler was indeed a Sliver. So was Vin. For the rest, I would say probably not. What defines an actual Sliver of Adonalsium is not as clear-cut as you might think. It's a term that in-universe people who study this have applied to various existences and states. Every single person on the world of Scadrial has a bit of Leras in them—a bit of the power of Preservation. Every single person has a bit of Ati in them. There's a certain threshold where these scholars would call you a Sliver of Adonalsium. But I would say that any regular Misting is probably not a Sliver. A full Lerasium Mistborn is getting closer, but people who have held one of the powers are what would probably be termed a Sliver by the definitions. If you hold all the power that makes you a Shard, but the Lord Ruler held a little bit of it and then let it go. From then on they referred to that change in him—the residue, what was left—as a Sliver. When he held it he became the Shard for a short time, and Vin was a Shard for a short time. After Vin gave up the power, what Kelsier is at the end of the trilogy—that's a Sliver of Adonalsium. source 22 hours ago, Child of Hodor said: It's like Tanavast's cognitive shadow is asleep in there and wakes up occasionally to say "Unite Them" in Dalinar's head . LOL 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanghur Rahl Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 Can’t cognitive shadows hold a Shard though? Kelsier did, briefly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 15 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said: Can’t cognitive shadows hold a Shard though? Kelsier did, briefly. Yes. And a Splinter can't. Quote Questioner What happens when a... spren picks up a Shard? Brandon Sanderson What do you mean picks up a Shard? Shardblade or Shard of Adonalsium? Questioner Picks up a Shard of Adonalsium. Brandon Sanderson A spren is a Shard of Adonalsium so it just-- Questioner Picks up one of the big ones like could a spren do the same thing that Kelsier's spirit did after he-- Brandon Sanderson *hesitantly* It's like you're asking if electricity can gain a charge of electricity and get electrified. Does that make sense? I mean-- It's a question that doesn't make a lot of sense. If a shard were to somehow-- They would just combine into a bigger shard and get larger-- if that makes sense? Questioner The foundation of that question was I thought that maybe the Stormfather spren was basically doing what Kelsier's spirit did. Brandon Sanderson Oh, um *sighs* Not really... It's really a not really There's some similarities but it's a not really. It's not quite a RAFO though. more of a-- Questioner More of a "doesn't quite work that way". Brandon Sanderson --doesn't quite work that way but you're thinking along the right lines? source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MountainKing Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said: I'm assuming that "human" really refers to sapient physical being (including dragons and Sho Del). There is a big difference between a splinter and a person: a splinter is just a hunk of Investiture. While it may gain sentience or sapience, it's not a physical being. Thus it can't hold a Shard, because it is itself a piece of a Shard. As Brandon explains in the WoB I linked before, splinters would just get absorbed into the larger whole. So if you kept infusing a splinter with Investiture, it would become a larger and larger splinter until eventually it would be big enough to be considered a "whole" Shard. A Sliver, by contrast is "someone who has had their mind, body, and spirit expanded due to holding a great deal of power, and then have had that power leave." It's a term that refers to people who have temporarily held a large enough chunk of a Shards power to be permanently altered by it. See also, this WoB: LOL Splinters can't pick up a shard, but once a sapient splinter is absorbed by shard, it could lead the shard to develop sapience faster. But that's all just speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanghur Rahl Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 Wouldn’t saying that a Splinter picked up the Shard be a little like saying that a droplet of water on the floor absorbed the flood that washed over it? As I understand it, a Splinter is effectively a ‘small’ fragment of a Shard. So wouldn’t reuniting a Splinter with the Shard simply mean putting the Shard back together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MountainKing Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 Most times yes, except when a endowment shard, tries to take up the shard of Honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanghur Rahl Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, MountainKing said: Most times yes, except when a endowment shard, tries to take up the shard of Honor. The Returned aren’t actually Splinters themselves though are they? Aren’t they people who Endowment gave one of her Splinters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MountainKing Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 Yes, but endowment can create sapient splinters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 A Returned is a person who dies and Endowment provides a Divine Breath (a splinter) to staple the person's soul back onto their body. I think the question of whether the divine breath staples the existing soul, or actually copies the existing soul and staples that copy, is unsettled. Quote Argent When you say that the Returned are cognitive shadows, are they shadows of the people they were pre-death? In other words, is Lightsong Llarimar's cognitive shadow stapled to his body with a Divine Breath? Brandon Sanderson Yes, they are. (The evidence in the books is Lightsong obtaining some of the memories his pre-death soul had.) Footnote: It’s likely that “Llarimar” is supposed to be “Stennimar”source Quote Khyrindor You've said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows "stapled" back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree? Brandon Sanderson Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created. Recognize that the term cognitive shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I'm not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this: Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality. A mind (cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture. When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul. Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety. linkhyrule5 Huh. ... Kandra are almost literally stapled to their bodies with Hemalurgy - would they count as such, to the in-setting scholars? Brandon Sanderson No, they wouldn't. They are beings who have had their souls twisted by Hemalurgy--the soul never left, it's just been messed up. Someone else who has a soul stapled to a body with Hemalurgy would count though. source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 And my interpretation of that WoB has always remained consistent @Extesian, as I'm sure your aware. It's somewhere in between. It's not a "copy" or simply "the original." the "petrification" explained does happen, and like the whole ship of Theseus, in my opinion at least, it's the same person, but the parts have been replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 23 minutes ago, Calderis said: And my interpretation of that WoB has always remained consistent @Extesian, as I'm sure your aware. It's somewhere in between. It's not a "copy" or simply "the original." the "petrification" explained does happen, and like the whole ship of Theseus, in my opinion at least, it's the same person, but the parts have been replaced. Yeah. Personally i strongly believe that Returned at least are not copies, its the original soul stapled with a splinter. This is both because of the way they die when giving up their DB and because of this. Quote Questioner With spikes, would you be able to actually transfer Breaths, when they get to the other planets? Brandon Sanderson So spikes rip off pieces of the soul and so Breaths are not going to be part of the soul. You could maybe get a divine Breath but I haven't really decided on regular Breaths, they're kind of stuck there in the Physical Realm which is not a thing that spikes are dealing with. Divine Breath, potentially, because that's something that's actually melding onto your soul. But, you know, when you're using the Breaths they reach through to the Spiritual Realm so, maybe if you got it while the Breaths were kinetic, right, while you're using them, then you might be able to rip them off. I'm not a hundred percent certain on that one. Bystander There's still things to decide upon. Brandon Sanderson Yeah there's still things, like I have to kind of see. My instinct says no right now. But, you know, how they interact is not something that I have-- Yeah. source That said maybe the DB investiture is used to make some patches onto damaged parts of the spirit web. But i don't think its entirely a copy. Nothing definitive though. Also, Mistborn SH spoilers Spoiler Kelsier becoming a CS also makes me believe this more strongly. I mean he doesn't see his original soul go to the Beyond so that's a strong indication to me he's not a copy. But i think other cognitive shadow systems could actually copy it, potentially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScavellTane Posted August 24, 2018 Report Share Posted August 24, 2018 Are Returned more akin to the Fused? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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