NotAStick Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 I'm wondering: is it possible the "Sibling" was twisted and broken up into the unmade? We have this about the unmade from the Arcanum: Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) 1) The Nightwatcher and Stormfather are parallel entities such that Nighwatcher:Cultivation :: Stormfather:Honor. 2) There is sort of a parallel for Odium, but the parallel is the various Unmade instead of a single entity. 3) They are parallel in that they are all Splinters. 4) The Unmade are voluntary Splinters, because Odium ("like almost all of the other Shards") voluntarily Splintered part of it's power. 5) The Stormfather is different from the others because it's a Sliver. source So Odium voluntarily Splintered part of its power into the Sibling, then somehow the Sibling splinters into the Unmade (probably parallel or similar to the splintering of Adonalsium). On Roshar, there is one splinter for Honor (the Stormfather) and one for Cultivation (the Nightwatcher). Why would Odium have nine splinters (the unmade)? We know there is a sibling, but if the sibling is Odium's splinter, then where do the unmade fit in? In my mind, it's possible the Unmade were once one splinter: the sibling. Given that Dalinar has imprisoned the Thrill, I'm also wondering if uniting the Unmade will become a goal of his. Certainly sabotaging the Heralds and the Unmade are part of the war against each other, but if Dalinar can remove all the Unmade from the playing field by uniting them back together... Disclaimer: I searched "unmade+sibling+unite+dalinar" and still got over 1,000 results on the forums. This theory seemed different enough from the ones I read - I know there are a few threads regarding things Dalinar needs to unite, and what/who the Unmade are, and who the Sibling is, but none actually seemed to put them together. Regardless, I apologize if this has already been discussed! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherlock Holmes Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 I this has been discussed, I wasn't here, though no doubt Calderis has a version of this theory. This certainly seems logical, since I originally assumed that the Sibling was Odium's Bondsmith spren. That isn't the case, of course, but I still think that Odium should have at least some representation among the Radiants, and the Dustbringers are the closest thing he's got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) All indications are that the Sibling is whole but 'asleep'. The Stormfather withholds information on the Sibling from Dalinar as humans have already damaged it enough. I think one of the urithiru gems refers to the Sibling sleeping. the Sibling was also active well into the time the unmade were active. And this seems to strongly indicate that. Quote Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] Does the deterioration of Urithiru have anything to do with the fact that the Sibling is asleep? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes. source But good lateral thinking. And you never need to apologise for theorizing or asking questions even if something has been raised before Edited August 16, 2018 by Extesian 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotAStick Posted August 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 14 minutes ago, Extesian said: All indications are that the Sibling is whole but 'asleep'. The Stormfather withholds information on the Sibling from Dalinar as humans have already damaged it enough. I think one of the urithiru gems refers to the Sibling sleeping. the Sibling was also active well into the time the unmade were active. And this seems to strongly indicate that. But good lateral thinking. And you never need to apologise for theorizing or asking questions even if something has been raised before Ah, I missed that! Thanks for pointing it out. If it wasn't for that tidbit about the gem, I'd be tempted to think we couldn't trust the Stormfather's opinion since his memory is easily called into question. And I may have responded to an 8 year old post because I got excited and didn't look to see it had long been dealt with... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurin Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) I wouldn't say all indications @Extesian, the Stormfather says "They are not with us", if you talk about one entity in plural I'd say it isn't whole. This could possibly mean that they, the Unmade, joined the other side (Odium) Edited August 16, 2018 by Thurin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, Thurin said: I wouldn't say all indications @Extesian, the Stormfather says "They are not with us", if you talk about one entity in plural I'd say it isn't whole. This could possibly mean that they, the Unmade, joined the other side (Odium) I think he's actually just using 'they' as the gender neutral reference to another person (because either the Sibling has no gender or just because Brandon wants to keep the gender secret). I can't rule it out but that's my take on that line. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurin Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 Quote XS-Terrain [PENDING REVIEW] Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Eh... Kind of. XS-Terrain [PENDING REVIEW] Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there. The Sibling we know of grants the power of a Bondsmith, precisely the order left out with the Unmade. So what if a primitive, complete Sibling was somehow unmade and shattered by Odium, creating the Unmade and leave the Sibling (that can only grant the power of a Bondsmith) as a remainder ...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScavellTane Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 It has always bugged me that most people here sees that sentence as a gender reference and not a plurality reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 2 hours ago, ScavellTane said: It has always bugged me that most people here sees that sentence as a gender reference and not a plurality reference. If it were a plurality reference, shouldnt it be "the Siblings"? I think that's mostly just because we know there are only ever three Bondsmiths, so the idea of the Sibling being a collection of creatures all but negates their ability to be the final Bondsmith Godspren. Unless, I suppose, the reason for there being an expressed limit is that it's only a good idea to ever bond one of the Sibling Collective at a time. We havent seen anything like a hivemind Swarm-spren, but Id be interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 3 hours ago, ScavellTane said: It has always bugged me that most people here sees that sentence as a gender reference and not a plurality reference. There's another reason we think it's not plural. Even though the Stormfather uses the plural/gender-neutral pronoun, he refers to the sibling as a singular entity in more than just name. Quote “Yes, you’ve said. The Nightwatcher is like you. Are there others, though? Spren like you, or the Nightwatcher? Spren that are shadows of gods?”There is … a third sibling. They are not with us. “In hiding?”No. Slumbering. "A" third. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotAStick Posted August 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 Okay, I will admit defeat for the sibling being unmade. It seems as though they were each active during the time of the Radiants (one was connected to Urithiru, and the unmade were fighting everywhere else). This makes it unlikely that they're the same thing... but we all know how recorded history can be Ruined ;] I'm also okay with the sibling being one entity - Syl mentioned how there are more than two genders among spren. It's possible the sibling falls into this category, and so English pronouns don't accommodate it. If they've been asleep this long, they probably didn't succumb to human conceptions of gender. I do think Brandon is being intentionally vague, but we won't know why until future books. What about the unmade once being one entity? Some of the mythology seemed to refer to them as one entity - could that be more than religious misconception? Since Dalinar has begun neutralizing the unmade, and he's a bondsmith, this could make for an interesting goal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrikerEZ Posted August 17, 2018 Report Share Posted August 17, 2018 16 hours ago, ScavellTane said: It has always bugged me that most people here sees that sentence as a gender reference and not a plurality reference. This is slightly off-topic, but I'm curious: why does it bug you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScavellTane Posted August 17, 2018 Report Share Posted August 17, 2018 1 hour ago, StrikerEZ said: This is slightly off-topic, but I'm curious: why does it bug you? I lied, it doesn't bug me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter Posted August 17, 2018 Report Share Posted August 17, 2018 Quote wiresegal In OB, you explained that the Singers have four sexes. I was wondering... Can the Singers have genders other than those four, like humans? Even as simple as just not going with male, female, or malen/femalen. Could a transgender Singer use their ability to shift forms to change their biological reality? And, finally, could a Spren be non-binary, if it wasn't personified in a typical male/female way? Brandon Sanderson In the cosmere as a whole, a person's perception of themselves has a lot of power over both their Spiritual and Physical forms. It is possible, with investiture, to change their biology to match Cognitive perceptions--and while this could be easier for some races (like the Singers) it's not outside plausibility for any race. There are non-binary spren, actually--and you should be meeting one important one quite soon in the books. source Relevant WoB. I strongly suspect he's referring to the Sibling here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corax Posted August 17, 2018 Report Share Posted August 17, 2018 I was just trying to work out a theory about the Unmade, and you sort of hit right on it! I was going to go a step slightly to the side, though, and suggest the Sibling is the odd Unmade out, Dai-Gonarthis. (The one that might not be an Unmade at all). As for the rest of them... I can't find a flat-out reference for them being direct splinters of Odium. They are "Splinters of a Soul," and the Coppermind citation is only Brandon saying that guessing that they were such was on the right track. Buuut I haven't combed the Arcanum so I could be missing a relevant WoB. Off topic but related guess: Spoiler My best guess is a tinfoil hat one: they're what's left of the Dawnshards. Unraveled and coopted by Odium, and were initially direct creations of Adonalsium. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted August 17, 2018 Report Share Posted August 17, 2018 @Corax I don't think this invalidates your idea, because I think the same. Quote WeiryWriter Are the Unmade Splinters of Odium? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Good guess. source But I think if he corrupted them enough they'd still be considered "splinters of Odium" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corax Posted August 17, 2018 Report Share Posted August 17, 2018 Just now, Calderis said: @Corax But I think if he corrupted them enough they'd still be considered "splinters of Odium" Ah, good point, for sure, about corruption. And thank you for the WoB magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotAStick Posted August 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2018 @Corax I like your tinfoil hat theory, especially since the dawnshards are known to be destructive. I don't know if I'm sold on it, but it would fit a few things. Do we know for certain whether the dawnshards are objects, or could they be people? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScavellTane Posted August 18, 2018 Report Share Posted August 18, 2018 Dawnshards = investiture = spren Most likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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