Vessels Knowledge PreAscension

[Juanaton]

Did the Vessels know the intent of the Shard they chose before ascending to that Shard? IIRC, the intent of a Shard is not identical to the name of the Shard, though they are related.

[Wandering Investor]

We do not know the answer to this. We know that the way Adonalsium shattered could have been different, but any question about whether the vessel's were in control of the process or how much they knew ahead of time has been RAFO'd.

We can make some conjecture though. Before Sazed took up Ruin and Preservation, he was able to feel what the intents of the shards were before he took them. We also have a WoB stating that Hoid was offered one of the shards, but turned it down. If the offering happened after death, that would indicate the vessels should have had time and been able to feel what the intents were, similar to how Sazed felt the intent, rather than just the name. If the offering happened before the shattering, or if the rules of Yolen are sufficiently different from Scadrial, then the vessel's might not have been able to know. But the real answer is RAFO.

You are correct that the name of the shard and the intent do not necessarily match up perfectly. The issue is that the intent is a concept, while the name is an attempt to capture that concept in a single word. So there is wiggle room in some of the more complicated intents, such as Honor or Autonomy. There are multiple definitions for each of those words, and we don't know if the intents capture every definition, or just a specific one.

PS. out of time, will edit later for quotes

[Jakkobz]

Ati wouldn't pick up Ruin, if he knew. 

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, Jakkobz said:

Ati wouldn't pick up Ruin, if he knew. 

That is an assumption that I don't agree with. There are plenty of reasons why a kind and gentle person would take up Ruin. One which I've proposed before, and why I think he was turned into the version of Ruin that he was, is because he felt that Ruin was a monster to be contained. 

Wanting what Ruin represented wouldn't have been the only reason to take it up. 

[Quantus]

The only datapoint I can think of even approaching this is that we know Hoid was offered one (whatever "Offered" means in the context of the Shattering Events) that we have not been shown as of 2015.  That rules out Endowment which per WOB is also the one that would have most tempted Hoid.  Which by extension rules out the possibility that accepting would have dictated the nature of his own Intent (though doesnt entirely rule it out for those that actually ascended)

[Weltall]

@Quantus We actually have one other potential data point: Frost claims that Rayse is 'what we made him to be' and that it's also what Rayse wanted to become. Which strongly suggests that the Vessels either knew in advance what the intents of the Shards were likely to be or they had an opportunity after the Shattering but before Ascending to work out what they were and who would pick up which one. But there was definitely some degree ofjustified anticipation if Rayse could have wanted to become Odium or something resembling it beforehand, and the others present could push him towards it.

[Quantus]

2 minutes ago, Weltall said:

@Quantus We actually have one other potential data point: Frost claims that Rayse is 'what we made him to be' and that it's also what Rayse wanted to become. Which strongly suggests that the Vessels either knew in advance what the intents of the Shards were likely to be or they had an opportunity after the Shattering but before Ascending to work out what they were and who would pick up which one. But there was definitely some degree of justified anticipation if Rayse could have wanted to become Odium or something resembling it beforehand, and the others present could push him towards it.

 I think that assumes Rayse wanted to become Odium, specifically, rather than simply gain the power of a Shard.  That seems to be what's implied in This WoB, that he just wants to be the most Powerful.  I read Frost's statement to be more along the lines of Rayse wanted Power and they enabled him to get it, which led to him being warped (or at least distilled) by the Shard's Intent into becoming the fun-loving guy he is today.

   

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Well, but it's also along the lines of, Odium wants to break up the other ones, so they don't...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Odium just wants to be top dog. And your two ways to be top dog are to climb higher, or to lower everyone else. And he's like, we're gonna lower everyone else. Because I know, if I combine, it stops being me, is what his opinion is. I would no longer be the person I am. I would change into someone else. And then that person gets to rule, and I don't want that person to rule. I want to.

source

 

 

[Calderis]

@Quantus I'm with @Weltall here.

The quote from frost is very very close to the one of Odium being "God's own divine hatred" implying that it specifically is what he wished to be. 

[Quantus]

58 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Quantus I'm with @Weltall here.

The quote from frost is very very close to the one of Odium being "God's own divine hatred" implying that it specifically is what he wished to be.

 Maybe Im just parsing the statement differently but I dont see how that implies any actual Choice (or even necessarily understanding) of the specific Intent he was going to receive, just that he wanted to become a hexadiety and that achieving such turned him into the monstrous force Frost thinks he's become. Granted Im of the opinion that Rayse currently doesnt truly understand his own Shard, in that it's blinded him to the wider context which is why he thinks that equating Passion with Hatred doesnt leave anything out; I figure this is supported by the WOB that Hatred was his Intent's original name.  Im not able to easily reconcile how he could have had the kind of Informed Consent you describe and still be off-base in his OB appearance. 

 

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While I mourn for the great suffering Rayse has caused, I do not believe we could hope for a better outcome than this. He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become. I suspect that he is more a force than an individual now, despite your insistence to the contrary.

 

While we're looking at that Letter, we're all agreed that Frost's last sentence is incorrect, right? Rayse is still very much a individual, thinking being, one that per WOB has enough wherewithal to avoid tainting himself with other Shard's power when he kills them. 

[Calderis]

@Quantus yes I agree that frost is wrong on the state that Rayse is in, and thinks he should have turned out more like Ati.

As to his current state being I  conflict with foreknowledge, I disagree. He could have made the same arguments the  that he's making now. Conflating what he feels as Passion with what the Shard truly is because of his own views. 

He hasn't changed, specifically because he's well aligned with Odium, and he's not being honest with himself or others. I don't see why that would be any different before. 

[Quantus]

24 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Quantus yes I agree that frost is wrong on the state that Rayse is in, and thinks he should have turned out more like Ati.

As to his current state being I  conflict with foreknowledge, I disagree. He could have made the same arguments the  that he's making now. Conflating what he feels as Passion with what the Shard truly is because of his own views. 

He hasn't changed, specifically because he's well aligned with Odium, and he's not being honest with himself or others. I don't see why that would be any different before. 

I think my hangup is @Weltall's assertion that he wanted to become Odium, specifically, and actually consciously chose to become "God’s own divine hatred" only to later backslide on his understanding of if (or whatever is underlying his self-deception).  But I guess he could have have that misunderstanding even as a Mortal and simply though that becoming God's Wrath would be awesome.  It fits, or at least it doesnt NOT fit, but I still read Frost's statement as being that they enabled him to become this powerful being knowing it might polarize him (and the rest), but not that they necessarily could anticipate the forms of the Intents or thought he'd be a good God of Wrath.

[goody153]

Afaik Sazed knew what Ruin was all about around his ascension just by merely touching the power. Not even holding it just testing the waters he already what it was(it was around the ascension of Sazed before he realized the prophecy and he was in front of the two shards).

Hell even others who aren't vessels knew what the shard is about by touching it(not even taking up just budding their skin to it). Dalinar experiencing what Odium is with describing in detail and Kelsier extremely detailed description of both Ruin and Preservation by merely touching with it.

Edited August 15, 2018 by goody153