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With the knowledge that a mystery Shard has "hacked into" Scadrial's magic system and manifest its Investiture as a new godmetal, trellium. I wonder how far this extends. Could there potentially be trellium Mistings or Ferrings born in the future? We know that Preservation altered Allomancy to allow atium Mistings to be born, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. But this may be something unique to Preservation, as Allomancy was his magic system to begin with. It's possible that "Trell" has interfered with the Metallic Arts enough to add a new godmetal, but not enough so that people are actually born with the "sDNA" to use it for Allomancy or Feruchemy. 

Any thoughts on this, one way or the other?

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The sDNA to burn a metal has to come from somewhere and we know that even a mistborn (with their 'burn anything' sDNA) wouldn't get anything out of a foreign godmetal without either that Shard doing something or without themselves creating some sort of Connection to that Shard. Trell would have to actively tamper with the spiritwebs of Scadrians for there to be trellium mistings/ferrings and I suspect Sazed would notice that sort of thing going on. Also, it's probably not something a foreign Shard could just march in and do, since Scadrians are all literally made of Preservation and Ruin which granted them (and Harmony) a much greater degree of influence over them than another Shard would have. If Odium can't directly influence the sapient races of Roshar in the same way Ruin could touch the minds of Scadrians for example, it's hard to imagine that Trell could manage a much more intrusive degree of spiritweb alteration.

Quote

zas678 (paraphrased)

Can Odium influence people the same way that Ruin can?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, you see, the kandra and the koloss have a "hole" in them that allows Ruin to come in and take over. The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that's what allows Odium to take control of them.

zas678 (paraphrased)

No, I'm talking about how Ruin was able to push people, place things in their minds, stuff like that. Can Odium do the same thing?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, Odium wasn't around when those people were created, so it's a little different for him than Ruin. So if he influences people in that way, it's through the Unmade.

source
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Questioner

Can Odium or any other [Shards] edit text like Ruin could? ...Or is that a special Ruin thing.  

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible for others as well. The trick about it is, [Ruin] saturated everything on Scadrial in a way that not all Shards saturate their planets.  

Questioner

Okay, what do you mean "saturate"?

Brandon Sanderson

Creating it, does that make sense? And so this was partially an aspect that everything on that planet, every atom was, y'know, had him in it... I mean he didn't create the atoms, let's say that, but yeah... The whole planet existence and particularly the people on it are [Ruin], attuned to [Ruin].

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This discussion actually came up in discord in just the past couple days. 

I used to believe that Trellium being active in Hemalurgy meant it must also have Allomantic and Feruchemical properties already too, and I know the majority still believe that. 

About a year ago now, @Yata convinced me otherwise.

You see, we have this WoB,

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word_thief

What would happen if a Mistborn ingested the metal of a Shardblade/plate?

Brandon Sanderson

A shardblade is invested. A Mistborn isn't likely to have a tie to that type of Investiture. So probably nothing would happen…

source

Which implies the only thing preventing an effect there is the Mistborn lack of a tie to the investiture of the metal. 

Hemalurgy doesn't require a Spiritual component in the user though. Just a metal spike, knowledge of bindpoints, and the intent to to steal the attribute. 

Because of that, I now believe that Trellium works only in Hemalurgy. To become active in the other two systems, Trell would need to do the things that @Weltall spoke of. 

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18 hours ago, Calderis said:

Because of that, I now believe that Trellium works only in Hemalurgy. To become active in the other two systems, Trell would need to do the things that @Weltall spoke of. 

So did Ruin(or, more accurately, Ati, since at that point the intent wouldn't have been corrupting his thoughts as much) do something similar to the scadrians, or would the ability to burn atium just come from the fact that all scadrians were literally created by the two shards?

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5 minutes ago, tmnsquirtle said:

So did Ruin(or, more accurately, Ati, since at that point the intent wouldn't have been corrupting his thoughts as much) do something similar to the scadrians, or would the ability to burn atium just come from the fact that all scadrians were literally created by the two shards?

Ruin and Preservation are a part of all of their souls inherently, and exclusively. That's definitely enough on its own. 

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On 8/13/2018 at 4:40 PM, Calderis said:

Which implies the only thing preventing an effect there is the Mistborn lack of a tie to the investiture of the metal. 

Hemalurgy doesn't require a Spiritual component in the user though. Just a metal spike, knowledge of bindpoints, and the intent to to steal the attribute. 

Because of that, I now believe that Trellium works only in Hemalurgy. To become active in the other two systems, Trell would need to do the things that @Weltall spoke of. 

Sorry for the lack of response, I got caught up in the meming. 

I wonder what a person would have to do to be able to burn a foreign godmetal. Mistborn sDNA seems to be a sort of general "burn any burnable metal" set of instructions, so would the Mistborn just need to somehow gain a Connection to the foreign Shard itself? Or would the Shard have to make an alteration to the Mistborn directly?

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There may be Trellium ferrings and mistings, or rather I believe it's possible. Just not with anyone with Scadrian sDNA. Badvadin has studied the Metallic Arts to such an extent to where she could possibly create an avatar (Trell most likely) that could have something that mimics the Metallic Arts be their magic system. But the users and super users of said system (ferrings, mistings, Mistborn, Feruchemists, Fullborn) would have to have sDNA infused with Trell. As I think about it though, it would probably be more likely to have either allomancy or feruchemy, not both, and allomancy most likely. Feruchemy was created (I think) from friction caused by 2 shards completely counterbalanced in Intent, in conflict with each other. Trell would not have that friction.

So in summary, in order for there to be a Trellian form of the Metallic Arts there would have to be a Shard or Shardic avatar familiar enough with the forces involved to create both the system and sapient beings who would have access to the system. Further, the users would need to posess the sDNA necessary to form a connection with that system. And because there's no friction from an opposing shardic entity there would only ever be one system, allomancy or feruchemy. Or, so as not to create an entirely new people, Trell could go for the Lerasium hack and make it so that a Trellium bead that rewrites the sDNA to allow access to the system. The question then becomes if a Scadrian misting or ferring swallowed a Trellium bead, would they lose their abilities in their original Art? 

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It's not a separate system. Anything possible in the Metallic Arts should be possible with Trellium if the right requirements have been met. A Mistborn who has connection to Trell should be able to burn it. A Full Feruchemist in the same circumstances, store and tap. 

Mistings/Ferrings/Twinborn/compounders should absolutely be possible assuming Trell jumped through the proper hoops to make them part of the system, or if someone with the right mixture of Scadrian sDNA (to make them a user of the Arts) and connection to Trell allowed it to happen elsewhere. 

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Allomancy is straight Preservation. Hemalurgy is straight Ruin. Feruchemy is a blend of the 2. That's how it's always been described to me. When Vin burns the mists she didn't become a Fullborn, just an infinitely more powerful Mistborn. When Elend swallowed the Lerasium bead, he became Mistborn not Fullborn. The 3 systems are stongly related whereas they use metal as their focus and the exibited powers are similar, but they are 3 different systems. Just like Surgebinding and Voidbinding are 2 different systems with a similar focus. 

It's for this reason that I say Trell will only be able to mimic 2 of the 3 Metallic Arts. Hemalurgy is easy because it's sDNA independent. One of the conditions that has to be met for Feruchemy to arise is to have friction between opposing Shards. So unless Badvadin made 2 avatars of opposing intents to occupy the same place the conditions to create Feruchemy will not be met. Now the expression of said Trellium Metallic Art could look like something a Scadrian would recognize as Allomancy or Feruchemy; the Intent driving the magic is quite dissimilar to Preservation or Ruin. There could be Trellium mistings and Mistborn or Trellium ferrings and Feruchemists but it's unlikely to be both. 

Edited by Bigmikey357
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Trell is using his Godmetal essence to make the Trellium version of a Kandra. If Trell created a different type of being using his Godmetal then I would agree. Instead he imitates something from an existing Metallic Art. Hence, mimicry.

Now, if Trell uses his Godmetal and alloys to fuel a Metallic Art and the power set is similar enough to be recognized by a Scadrian user then that becomes mimicry as well. However, if the resulting power set is completely different then Trell would have created a new Metallic Art. 

In the case of Hemalurgy, I said before that for a Shard it would be easy to copy or maybe even come up something completely different. Metal, knowledge of bindpoints and Intent. A Vessel without knowledge of bind points probably has enough people and definitely enough time to experiment and find a combination that suits.

However Allomancy/Feruchemy are different in that there is a DNA component. Since one carries one's DNA with them the advantage is the abilities gained are not localized. The fuel is common, not specific to any one world. For example, Surgebinders cannot take their power outside the Rosharan System b/c their spren cannot travel. Elantrans of all flavors are unable to perform their magics away from the regional base of their power source. The Metallic Arts are not the only system so easily carried (Aviars and Breath come to mind) but it seems the best one we know of so far. That's the good news. The bad news is that the circumstances involved in the creation of Allomancy/Feruchemy make it difficult for any Vessel to duplicate. Why else would there only be one Shard willing to duplicate the process? It took Trell over 1000 years just to make the proper inroads and even it started off with the easiest Metallic Art.

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3 hours ago, Calderis said:

A Mistborn who has codnnection to Trell should be able to burn it. A Full Feruchemist in the same circumstances, store and tap. 

Mistings/Ferrings/Twinborn/compounders should absolutely be possible assuming Trell jumped through the proper hoops to make them part of the system, or if someone with the right mixture of Scadrian sDNA (to make them a user of the Arts) and connection to Trell allowed it to happen elsewhere. 

This post is interesting to me, because it's a complete 180 to what you said earlier in the thread. You sounded pretty convinced that trellium was Hemalurgy-only in it's current incarnation; what made you change your mind? Or am I misinterpreting what you mean?

Edited by Unlicensed Hemalurgist
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1 hour ago, Unlicensed Hemalurgist said:

This post is interesting to me, because it's a complete 180 to what you said earlier in the thread. You sounded pretty convinced that trellium was Hemalurgy-only in it's current incarnation; what made you change your mind? Or am I misinterpreting what you mean?

It's not a 180. I'm saying it's possible. Trell hasn't done those things on Scadrial. Mistings and Ferrings of Trellium are not an intrinsic part of the system, and a Scadrian born Mistborn wouldn't be able to burn it yet (in my opinion). That doesn't mean that someone with the right DNA to be an allomancer and the proper connection couldn't have it, but so far, the only  way to use that power would be to Hemalurgically steal the ability... And that can't be done as no one has it yet. 

The reason most people say that Trellium has to have Allomantic and Feruchemical powers is because of this and others like it. 

Quote

Czanos

Does every metal have a Feruchemical and Hemalurgic property? If not, are there metals which have Feruchemical or Hemalurgic properties which do not have Allomantic ones?

Brandon Sanderson

Every metal has a Feruchemical, an Allomantic, and a Hemalurgic property. The godly metals each also do something else. There are several interesting Feruchemical powers yet to be discovered and revealed in the next series. Feruchemy is less widely understood because there were so few practitioners in the modern era, and a lot of the time they were too afraid of capture to really study and use their powers.

source

So to clarify, yes I think Trellium has an Allomantic and Feruchemical power associated with it already, it's just that without Trell creating the proper link to Scadrial's people no one is going to o be born able to use it, so it isn't effectively true yet. 

@Bigmikey357 I don't think it is mimicking a Kandra. It's not described as having changed shape, it's described as having stolen a body. Possession.

I personally think that the Set's immortals are Svrakiss, and the reason the Elantris sequels need to be published prior to Era 3.

Edited by Calderis
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On 13/8/2018 at 10:40 PM, Calderis said:

About a year ago now, @Yata convinced me otherwise.

 

On 14/8/2018 at 0:39 AM, Extesian said:

 For what it's worth I was also sold by the yata conversation last year and I think the Spiritual independence of hemalurgy makes it different from the others.

The movement is growing :D

Returning to the actual topic, I agree with Cal at 100%
Trell isn't micry a magic system, he simply placed an element mostly compatible with the local magic and depending on the magics' requirements this element integrated or not with the local systems.


As Cal said, I strongly believe that at the moment Trell isn't invested enough with Scadrial and its popolation to allow them a meaningfully connection to him. This means no Allomancers or Feruchemists would be able to burn/store/tap from Trellium normally and the Trellium works only in the Spiritual-Indipendent Magic ( Hemalurgy ). It's hard to define if at the moment the Trellium has a Allomantically and Feruchemically effect, as the effect it's dictated by the user and there are no users, it's mostly a possibility suspended in the underling of the magic until it happens.

By the way, an user could arose if the right criterias were met, for example... Assuming Full Feruchemist are still around, one could use F-Durallumin to increase his connection to Trell enough to access the F-Trellium or maybe a Mistborn possessed by a Fakeless Immortal. Of course those are moot points as Mistborns and Full Feruchemists are no more.

An interesting scenario is, an average dude spiked with Connection to Trell would be at least in theory to snap (if he is an unsnapped misting) into a Trellium misting. Of course this is really convoluted and requires for the Godmetals Misting to happen naturally...Something the Era 1 made unclear.

Anyway, this topic made click something in my mind and I have to consider something I never thought about.... It's OT (as it is about foreign mistborn) so I will not talk of that here

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