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I've been playing around with ideas as to how to overcome atium, and I've thought that perhaps a feruchemist tapping steel would be able to exploit the fact that atium still relies on your reactions. An allomancer burning atium would see your atium shadow, but if a feruchemist were tapping enough steel then perhaps they would be able to move too fast for even the enhanced mind that atium provides to comprehend.

I got this idea when I was reading Sazed's fight with Marsh. There was a point where he was moving too fast for Marsh to react, so perhaps if he were to use that same technique, but tapping more steel, on someone burning atium then perhaps it would work.

I welcome your thoughts. 

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When you're reacting to something in the future it doesn't really matter how fast someone is moving, you react before they even start moving.

But I would think that a Steelrunner could very easily emulate Vins trick and just change what they were about to do based on how the Seer is reacting.

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1 minute ago, Voidus said:

When you're reacting to something in the future it doesn't really matter how fast someone is moving, you react before they even start moving.

But I would think that a Steelrunner could very easily emulate Vins trick and just change what they were about to do based on how the Seer is reacting.

That's true, and it does make me question why there aren't more feruchemist warriors. They would be incredibly capable and yet they all become scholars. A shame really. 

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Just now, Mistborn Radiant said:

That's true, and it does make me question why there aren't more feruchemist warriors. They would be incredibly capable and yet they all become scholars. A shame really. 

I'd say it was because they wanted to keep themselves and their knowledge alive during the Final Empire, if they tried to fight they would definitely be overcome, they couldn't counter an entire army. And then there'd be no more Keepers to pass information on if the empire ever did get overthrown.

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Just now, Voidus said:

I'd say it was because they wanted to keep themselves and their knowledge alive during the Final Empire, if they tried to fight they would definitely be overcome, they couldn't counter an entire army. And then there'd be no more Keepers to pass information on if the empire ever did get overthrown.

Yes I understand that, I suppose I simply have trouble believing that the keepers didn't think to at least familiarise using their feruchemy in combat. 

I agree that open resistance would be futile, but surely it isn't a stretch that a few of the keepers saw the potential of their powers in combat, and considering the fact that they are a cautious lot, they may have wanted to be a bit more prepared. 

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Well, I mean, Sazed does seem like he has some experience in the combat field, like when he saves Vin. He did something to that Inquisitor. And the Marsh/Sazed fight. I doubt someone could make up some of the moves he did on the fly.

I would guess Tindwyl also had some  fighting knowledge (probably stored in their copperminds), since it’s noted she was also playing an active part in the Luthadel Koloss battle (WoA), and held her own for a while before... you know.

So out of the two Keepers we’ve seen, it seems both of them did prepare for a battle, and obviously had some moves stored up to use. It’s just that they didn’t use them openly, which is why we only see them used in desperate situations (eg. saving Vin, Marsh/Sazed, Koloss battle)

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Steel beats atium hands down. 

Atium does allow you to see into the future and react accordingly, but it doesn't in itself enhance your physical capabilities. 

Steel not only increases your physical speed, but increases your reaction time in order for you to be able to move at those speeds without killing yourself. It's bullet time.

It doesn't matter if atium sees you coming, because you'd react to their reaction faster than they physically can.

The shadow would split every time they reacted and atium would do nothing but show them their imminent death. 

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On 8/12/2018 at 1:46 PM, Calderis said:

Steel beats atium hands down. 

Atium does allow you to see into the future and react accordingly, but it doesn't in itself enhance your physical capabilities. 

Steel not only increases your physical speed, but increases your reaction time in order for you to be able to move at those speeds without killing yourself. It's bullet time.

It doesn't matter if atium sees you coming, because you'd react to their reaction faster than they physically can.

The shadow would split every time they reacted and atium would do nothing but show them their imminent death. 

That's similar to what I was suggesting 

 

On 8/12/2018 at 1:34 PM, I think I am here. said:

Well, I mean, Sazed does seem like he has some experience in the combat field, like when he saves Vin. He did something to that Inquisitor. And the Marsh/Sazed fight. I doubt someone could make up some of the moves he did on the fly.

I would guess Tindwyl also had some  fighting knowledge (probably stored in their copperminds), since it’s noted she was also playing an active part in the Luthadel Koloss battle (WoA), and held her own for a while before... you know.

So out of the two Keepers we’ve seen, it seems both of them did prepare for a battle, and obviously had some moves stored up to use. It’s just that they didn’t use them openly, which is why we only see them used in desperate situations (eg. saving Vin, Marsh/Sazed, Koloss battle)

Well all Sazed does when he saves Vin is whack the inquisitor with a rock. And in the siege of Luthadel when Sazed is preparing himself to fight the Koloss he reflects that he has no experience fighting. Also we don't know that Tindwyl fought very much. Ahe could simply have led her men (she is familiar with leadership) then die as soon as she had to fight. 

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So to clear up the Sazed thing, after I read this thread I went back to my reread of HoA. I then came across this quote. It is as Sazed is in the trustwarren and was just captured by the seconds and saved by Tensoon. Page 677

"Sazed always said he wasn't a warrior. However, the number of times he'd said that, then been forced to fight anyway, made him think he was losing that excuse. The truth was, he'd been in far more battles over the last few years than he felt he had any right to have survived.

Either way, he knew some rudimentary moves-and, with both Feruchemy and surprise to aid him, that was about all he needed."

This doesn't clear it up perfectly, but it implies that he didn't have warrior training aside from "rudimentary moves" which he has likely gotten better at these last few years. He was more reliant on Feruchemy, and I suspect most other keepers were similar if not the same.

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1 minute ago, The Gecko said:

So to clear up the Sazed thing, after I read this thread I went back to my reread of HoA. I then came across this quote. It is as Sazed is in the trustwarren and was just captured by the seconds and saved by Tensoon. Page 677

"Sazed always said he wasn't a warrior. However, the number of times he'd said that, then been forced to fight anyway, made him think he was losing that excuse. The truth was, he'd been in far more battles over the last few years than he felt he had any right to have survived.

Either way, he knew some rudimentary moves-and, with both Feruchemy and surprise to aid him, that was about all he needed."

This doesn't clear it up perfectly, but it implies that he didn't have warrior training aside from "rudimentary moves" which he has likely gotten better at these last few years. He was more reliant on Feruchemy, and I suspect most other keepers were similar if not the same.

Yeah that seems the most likely scenario. I had always assumed as I read the series that Sazed had to learn as he went along and just managed to survive most of the time because he could rely so much on feruchemy.

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The pure speed should not be a problem for atium. Vin is able to catch Arrows during flight.But the reaction time surley is one of steels trump card. I still don't really agree how vin beat zane. The shadow should have shown that she would change her mind. I know she reacted to her own shadow sp to speek but still. One would think situations like this happen often enough in Mistborn fight's to be known. Even only as a rumor.

Ham says that you can beat an Atium burner by essentially "checkmateing" them. A Full Feruchemist should not have a problem with this. Nor should a steel runner.

Well depends if you fight a Seer or a Mistborn. Mistborn can always jump away which is a major advantage against feruchemie.

 

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10 minutes ago, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

The pure speed should not be a problem for atium. Vin is able to catch Arrows during flight.But the reaction time surley is one of steels trump card. I still don't really agree how vin beat zane. The shadow should have shown that she would change her mind. I know she reacted to her own shadow sp to speek but still. One would think situations like this happen often enough in Mistborn fight's to be known. Even only as a rumor.

Ham says that you can beat an Atium burner by essentially "checkmateing" them. A Full Feruchemist should not have a problem with this. Nor should a steel runner.

Well depends if you fight a Seer or a Mistborn. Mistborn can always jump away which is a major advantage against feruchemie.

 

I still wonder how exactly one would 'checkmate' an atium user. A seer would be easier, but how would you checkmate a mistborn. Not only can they see what you will do but they can react in many ways.

Is this perhaps where feruchemical foresight may help?

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For a Seer: Just take a full steel, gold, iron and pewter mind and rush them down. Even if they see you coming. They can't run away.

Once you've got them just smash them dead with strength and weight. While any counters are healed with gold.

 

A Mistborn would be tricky yes. I think once you get ahold of them it's over. But catching them would be very hard.

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3 minutes ago, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

For a Seer: Just take a full steel, gold, iron and pewter mind and rush them down. Even if they see you coming. They can't run away.

Once you've got them just smash them dead with strength and weight. While any counters are healed with gold.

 

A Mistborn would be tricky yes. I think once you get ahold of them it's over. But catching them would be very hard.

I suppose having a full goldmind to heal any wounds they deal you would be a handy advantage. 

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Vin beat Zane by reading his reaction and responding to it. 

His ability to know what she was going to do alerted her, the exact same as if she were burning electrum. 

When she reacted, he atium shadow would have split in two, and suddenly there were two possibilities that he had to choose from. 

23 minutes ago, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

The pure speed should not be a problem for atium. Vin is able to catch Arrows during flight.But the reaction time surley is one of steels trump card.

It would beat it. For one thing, Vin was burning pewter, so she was enhanced with strength durability and speed. 

But even she wouldn't be able to outdo steel's speed. Bleeder fired four shots from different places in a room so close together it sounded like a single report. 

There's no reacting faster than that. Steel wins. 

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37 minutes ago, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

Vin is able to catch Arrows during flight.

This isn't actually too spectacular. In real life people have come close to being able to catch arrows (not actually succeeding but coming quite close), and considering the fact that she was burning both pewter and atium would make up for that gap. 

Simply put, no matter what you can see in the future, if you can't react in time then all that foresight grants you is to know how you die.

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I agree that the Steelrunner would easily win, especially with preparation beforehand. They could just store a huge amount of speed and then tap enough of it at once that the atium misting appears standing still to them. There would be nothing the atium misting could do to react. Checkmate.

 

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Steelrunner should win. Aside from the significantly higher duration of usage which that alone already gives Atium misting his defeat, in close proximity it doesn't matter how you can predict if you can't react to the person due to his speed.

But an Atium Misting can win under the specific condition that if he/she burned Atium at the right time as Steelrunner is about to clobber him/her should give him a predictive pattern where to hit or dodge given that the Atium allomancer also has guns or some tools to hit the steelrunner. Another scenario would be Steelrunner being an idiot not spending his entire speed and just amping himself a little for efficiency sounds like a perfect way to lose to a Atium Misting(as we have seen atium misting beat somebody twice as fast and strong as he/she is)

Other than that steelrunner should win most of the time.

Edited by goody153
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I agree that the second method might work, but for the first, the Steelrunner could react easily to any counter, creating the same situation Vin uses when fighting Zane.

 

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It really comes down to whether the Steelrunner's speed boost runs out faster than the Seer's atium reserves burn up, I think. 

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On 8/13/2018 at 0:03 AM, HeyLookItz said:

I agree that the Steelrunner would easily win, especially with preparation beforehand. They could just store a huge amount of speed and then tap enough of it at once that the atium misting appears standing still to them. There would be nothing the atium misting could do to react. Checkmate.

This sort of discussion presupposes both parties know of the other one's abilities, though, doesn't it?

A "prepared Steelrunner" should win or draw almost any kind of encounter: with careful planning to make sure of an exit, a quick escape would always be an option, in the worst case.

But even if the Steelrunner has the ability to tap so much speed that time all but freezes for the opponent, he/she still needs to realize that the time to do that is now: even a Compounder can't really function in society walking around all the time, 24/7, at max speedup.

If you told the Steelrunner, "an atium-burning Allomancer looking to kill you is about to drop from the ceiling!", yeah, he could max-tap and ensure his survival or victory. But even without forewarning, the atium burner should be able to see that some of his actions would result in the Steelrunner doing the max-tap thing and getting away or winning, and not do them (i.e., "don't drop dramatically from the ceiling - walk up casually like you're a random passerby, then WHAM!").

So in a vacuum, versus a prearranged duel, I'd say the Seer has the natural advantage.

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13 minutes ago, robardin said:

This sort of discussion presupposes both parties know of the other one's abilities, though, doesn't it?

A "prepared Steelrunner" should win or draw almost any kind of encounter: with careful planning to make sure of an exit, a quick escape would always be an option, in the worst case.

But even if the Steelrunner has the ability to tap so much speed that time all but freezes for the opponent, he/she still needs to realize that the time to do that is now: even a Compounder can't really function in society walking around all the time, 24/7, at max speedup.

If you told the Steelrunner, "an atium-burning Allomancer looking to kill you is about to drop from the ceiling!", yeah, he could max-tap and ensure his survival or victory. But even without forewarning, the atium burner should be able to see that some of his actions would result in the Steelrunner doing the max-tap thing and getting away or winning, and not do them (i.e., "don't drop dramatically from the ceiling - walk up casually like you're a random passerby, then WHAM!").

So in a vacuum, versus a prearranged duel, I'd say the Seer has the natural advantage.

Perhaps,

But if a seer were to do that then they could even get the drop on a fulborn. Of course the seer has an inane advantage over anyone they are able to surprise, however this scenario was more of a fight between the two, not really if the seer were assassinating the steelrunner. So if the two encountered each other on the batlefield say, they would both quickly realise the abilities of the other and be able to use their own to try and counter this. 

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I know that steelrunners can be really fast but how fast are they really ? I think i remember Wax actually hitting and catching up bleeder who was using steelrunner ability maxed without even having pewter himself. He only had steel to catch up

Cause it might be also possible that we might exaggerating their speed in our head.

Edited by goody153
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1 minute ago, goody153 said:

I know that steelrunners can be really fast but how fast are they really ? I think i remember Wax actually hitting and catching up bleeder who was using steelrunner ability maxed without even having pewter himself. He only had steel to catch up

Cause it might be also possible that we might exaggerating their speed in our head.

She fired shots from four different places in a room so quickly it sounded like a single shot. If he caught her, she let him. 

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14 minutes ago, Calderis said:

She fired shots from four different places in a room so quickly it sounded like a single shot. If he caught her, she let him. 

That was kinda a different case because none of the guests were expected a steelrunner rampaging through them and it was a tight room but it was different in their first confrontation with Wax as it was an expected conflict. She was running away straight for the governor but Wax was catching up and almost caught her even through steelrunning

You could say that bleeder had no plan of hurting wax but it's still the same that Wax actually managed to both hit her with a gun and catchup with her through steel. Bleeder definitely did not want to get caught as she did try so hard to escape as that would be game over for her.

Even as an expert Kandra she could sustain enough damage to be immobile(she was actually on the verge of it before escaping and losing Wax outside) 

Edited by goody153
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