Robinski - 180808 - AK Dead Horse - Part 9 - 1187 words (----)

[Robinski]

Phew, so this has been a real toil, in part due to some bad personal stuff, and in part due to my general struggle with nearing the end. By the time I get to the last 20%(?) of a story, I've changed enough, and departed from enough initial ideas, introduced enough new stuff that it feels terribly untidy. I apologise for that.

Hopefully there is enough good here to build tension / conflict and push the story towards a 'big/rousing/satisfying' conclusion. It won't pay off as well in this first draft, I'm sure, than a second, third or fourth version, but I'm hoping the bones are here (lol).

This one is real short too, for reasons that probably will be obvious.

Many thanks for your consideration!!

Best, Robinski

[Mandamon]

Hope things are going better for you!

A quick read, and sheds some light on things.
First, though, where is C? I thought she was with J? 
Second, P is making a lot of unsubstantiated claims. I feel like he's using some gullibility power on J, because his claims don't make a lot of sense and he's obviously creepy. Maybe some more reaction from J, or at least mental questioning?

Notes while reading.
pg 93: "You came seeking aid for your family,"
--I see a nice connection here with the beginning of the story.

pg 93: "Her race have followed a different path,"
--Have-> has, and also I'd maybe steer away from discussions of race. Maybe substitute "people?"

pg 94: "The wild and dangerous creatures"
--I'm not quite getting how the creatures are a danger to W. The adepts would have to invade, and bring bones of the creatures with them. And as far as I remember, there was no threat of invasion. 

pg 95: "C’s power is difficult to master, but having tasted it once I believe that you will have much more success a second time."
--But it's not C's power, is it? It's the power of animals that happen to also be found in the place where C was born.

[shatteredsmooth]

This section definitely feels like it is building, almost to the peak, but it felt a tad bit rushed...maybe. This was kind of a big reveal, or part of one, so most of the comments I made while reading tie into how it was set up and what worked and didn't work about that.

"never...foreigners could be adepts..." I don't recall anything about whether they could or couldn't, but I could've forgotten.

"You came seeking aid" This really confused me with the earlier timeline, especially in relation into P saying D orchestrated O's "aggressive pursuit" "your being arrested and jailed." I had been thinking P was engineered O's actions to drive J to him. J thinks it makes sense but to me it doesn't add up, especially since we don't clearly know at what point in time this mystery visit happened. 

"She always intended to cross" He is talking about C here, right? Why would she cross him? What could she gain by it? I feel like they don't know eachother enough for him to be worth premeditated  crossing. Spur of the moment, turn on him to survive? Fine. But, "oh, i just met this guy I'll work with him and betray him for an unclear reason" doesn't quite sound right unless I am missing something. 

On a more positive note, the idea of the human bones is gross and fascinating and a well executed twist. The beautiful imagery is a great juxtaposition to the rot at it's core. The bones and the concept of this big reveal scene work, but the pieces don't all come together for me. 

[industrialistDragon]

Over all, I like that it's getting towards a resolution, but I'm a bit confused at this point because we've spent about 7.5 subs setting up a highly enjoyable heist that is now suddenly the end of a murder mystery/political thriller and while I like all those genres, I'm left wondering where my heist went? 

 

I still have issues with the Black Witch moniker. Besides the not-great-ness of calling the one nonwhite (and one of only two nonmale) character in the story "black witch," it's awfully generic. It doesn't tell me anything about how or why or where she got it. It doesn't sound all that memorable, especially when her real name is much more unique. I mean, even "blood witch" or "corpse witch" (also still pretty depressingly generic, imo) would at least hint at the carnage she's supposed to have been responsible for. Someone in an earlier sub called her "the butcher of the corpse ship"  and while it's a bit of an awkward mouthful, "butcher of" is very evocative to me.

Also, it's a weird random bit of foreshadowing that I can't tell is intended or not? Like, how in all the world would the random guy-on-the-street who hears rumors and makes up nicknames latch onto "witch" as part of it? That's one heck of a coincidence, and makes me wonder if J is just out of it, or really that dumb that he missed the possibility all this time. It's in her nickname, so, apparently, randos who've never even seen her know she's a caster, yet the dude who's wanted into her pants and has been working closely with her for months misses it?   

 

"despite her rejection of me" -- Except he's the one that dumped her? Kind of? She was, as I understood it, offering him NSA sexy funtimes and he wanted to Go Steady (or Be Exclusive or Settle Down or whatever the kids call it nowadays); she said no and he got all pouty about it.  This makes J look like a real jerk to me. 

 

I'm going to echo @Mandamon 's wince at "race." "People" is much better. If you still want him to sound kind of slimy, "kind."

 

"an extreme danger"  -- Well, that explains the tiger bones, but I think J's attack needs to be more clearly connected to the consumption/use of the tiger to really nail this reveal. It's a bit flat at the moment. Also, if it's a health/immunity/biology issue, I'd expect him to have more physiological reactions to eating something incompatible with his system. The marrow has to pass through his digestive tract after all. Heck, people used to bland food trying new spices for the first time have more of a biological reaction than he did. I like the idea of it being too powerful/incompatible with him, though, and it does make D into a very morally grey character, which I enjoy. 

 

"wild and dangerous creatures" ...Is he comparing C, the one nonwhite (and one of only two nonmale) characters in this story to "unlimited" animals, with the implication that there's so many of them they are 1) okay to kill and 2) coming to eat your babies and violate your family so 1 is justified? I know he's the bad guy... but this is my extreme skepticism face. Extreme. Skepticism.  (also, even ignoring the massive unfortunate implications of a statement like that, there's never been a lick of an intimation of there being tension between C's nation and J's (and anyway, weren't the king good and the times relatively peaceful?), so he's coming off as less villian-in-control and more tinfoil hat-wearing crackpot here...)

 

All this information about D is just not landing very well for me. She sort of pops up out of nowhere, then vanishes again straight off, and while I like what I've seen of her, I just don't care enough about her to be affected by the knowledge that J's been set up. Besides which, I'm more inclined to believe P's making all this stuff up, since so far that I've seen "on screen," D's been playing truthfully with J & co. Maybe she just didn't know they'd affect him that way, because she'd only ever heard from people who know how to use them properly? I mean, it's as likely right now as P telling the truth...

 

"put her down" ... Like she's a rabid dog? Whoo. Well. I guess I wasn't wrong about the first part then. In which case: these are very nasty sentiments that can and still do cause very real pain when they are used in a story. Claiming brown people are less than fully human is still done today to excuse any number of atrocities and systemic abuse.

I know he is a bad guy, and while the intent may be to show how reprehensible he is, what's coming across is less that he is bad and more that the story has been all this time working towards this idea. C is one of your best characters out of anything I've seen here to date, and I like her a lot, but between J's infatuation and fetishizing of her uniqueness and foreign appearance, and the way the narrative treats her as very much a different sort of creature from any of the men, this big reveal scene reads instead like an indictment of the one brown, active female character, one in which the narrative is tacitly approving P's theory. J, our sole, first-person POV, even agrees with P at the end. It's a really bad look. 

If the desire is to use such incendiary views in the big bad's Evil Speech of Evil two things need to happen: first, the rest of the story needs to get cleaned up and in no uncertain terms treat C like as fully a human person as any of the male cast throughout the entirety of the story, and second, the narrative needs to be unequivocally crystalline clear that this is the opinion of the character, not the story. Even then I'd still call it thin ice. 

Frankly, P's whole Evil Speech of Evil is a little too blunt and rough for the smooth operator I think he's intended to be (I want him to be. I have a soft spot for elegant evildoers). I don't believe there's any need for him to bash J over the head with as many verbal hammers as he does, incendiary ones included. J is reasonably intelligent and so are readers, generally, so let P just point J towards the the path to condemnation, not, like, move his feet for him, and J will make the connections on his own. That last line has a lot of impact and I like it, but right now it's just one more problematic statement in a unfortunately problematic chapter.  

[Robinski]

Thanks so much for reading, Mandamon. Appropriately like clockwork for a steampunk(?) author  

On 08/08/2018 at 6:24 PM, Mandamon said:

First, though, where is C? I thought she was with J? 

Calling WRS on this, as they did split in the last submission. She if off to do the thieving and find Pen.

On 08/08/2018 at 6:24 PM, Mandamon said:

Second, P is making a lot of unsubstantiated claims. I feel like he's using some gullibility power on J, because his claims don't make a lot of sense and he's obviously creepy. Maybe some more reaction from J, or at least mental questioning?

Yes, good call. I'm sprinkling in some internal reaction from J.

On 08/08/2018 at 6:24 PM, Mandamon said:

pg 93: "Her race have followed a different path,"
--Have-> has, and also I'd maybe steer away from discussions of race. Maybe substitute "people?"

Excellent comments, both. Thank you.

On 08/08/2018 at 6:24 PM, Mandamon said:

-I'm not quite getting how the creatures are a danger to W. The adepts would have to invade, and bring bones of the creatures with them.

Unclear, thanks for calling out. Their abilities are permanent, all of them (allegedly). I've called that out better.

On 08/08/2018 at 6:24 PM, Mandamon said:

--But it's not C's power, is it? It's the power of animals that happen to also be found in the place where C was born.

Clarified, thanks!

Super comments. Thank you  

[Robinski]

Thank you so much for reading, @shatteredsmooth.

On 09/08/2018 at 1:30 AM, shatteredsmooth said:

This section definitely feels like it is building, almost to the peak, but it felt a tad bit rushed...maybe.

That's good , and yes, it probably was...  

On 09/08/2018 at 1:30 AM, shatteredsmooth said:

"never...foreigners could be adepts..." I don't recall anything about whether they could or couldn't, but I could've forgotten.

There's nothing previous; it is a possibly clumsy attempt to underline J's limited worldview.

On 09/08/2018 at 1:30 AM, shatteredsmooth said:

I had been thinking P was engineered O's actions to drive J to him. J thinks it makes sense but to me it doesn't add up, especially since we don't clearly know at what point in time this mystery visit happened.

Hmm, yes. I'm not saying you're wrong. I suppose that's the difficulty with J accepting, or trying to accept what P is telling him. Unreliable internal monologue?

On 09/08/2018 at 1:30 AM, shatteredsmooth said:

He is talking about C here, right? Why would she cross him? What could she gain by it? I feel like they don't know eachother enough for him to be worth premeditated  crossing. Spur of the moment, turn on him to survive? Fine. But, "oh, i just met this guy I'll work with him and betray him for an unclear reason" doesn't quite sound right unless I am missing something.

Yeah, ok. There is dialogue earlier on about J crossing the rest of the group to keep more of the swag for himself and get a bigger share. Maybe there isn't a good basis or that, and maybe I need to call out his unreliable nature more. He is a thief, after all, and therefore inherently dishonest. Still... I will try and start out on the edit with a clear set of goals (which I don't always manage to do), one of which is to show that J ultimately is a nefarious wee sh1t.

On 09/08/2018 at 1:30 AM, shatteredsmooth said:

On a more positive note, the idea of the human bones is gross and fascinating and a well executed twist. The beautiful imagery is a great juxtaposition to the rot at it's core. The bones and the concept of this big reveal scene work, but the pieces don't all come together for me.

This is great news. I like the word 'rot', and will include it here somewhere for sure! Thanks so much for the comments. Much appreciated  

[shatteredsmooth]

8 hours ago, Robinski said:

J ultimately is a nefarious wee sh1t.

I like this description of him. 

[Robinski]

2 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

I like this description of him. 

 

 

[Robinski]

On 09/08/2018 at 10:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

Over all, I like that it's getting towards a resolution, but I'm a bit confused at this point because we've spent about 7.5 subs setting up a highly enjoyable heist that is now suddenly the end of a murder mystery/political thriller and while I like all those genres, I'm left wondering where my heist went?

So pleased to have your comments, ID. Thank you  

Yes, it's a fair question, and a problem for me in that J is not participating in the heist, or at least his part in it has been usurped somewhat by Lord P dropping his reveal about the ledger. I will need to consider what to do about that, because I don't want to let the reader down on the matter of the heist. I'm planning to play up the earlier ticking clock aspects that drive the heist when I edit, but I agree I also need a way to keep the heist on track too. Thanks for calling out!

On 09/08/2018 at 10:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

I still have issues with the Black Witch moniker. Besides the not-great-ness of calling the one nonwhite (and one of only two nonmale) character in the story "black witch," it's awfully generic.

Good point. The fact that the moniker was given to her by people who would be insensitive to the issues doesn't help with the fact that it's there on the page. It was certainly low-hanging fruit when I adopted it. 

On 09/08/2018 at 10:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

It doesn't sound all that memorable, especially when her real name is much more unique. I mean, even "blood witch" or "corpse witch" (also still pretty depressingly generic, imo) would at least hint at the carnage she's supposed to have been responsible for.

Yep.

On 09/08/2018 at 10:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

Someone in an earlier sub called her "the butcher of the corpse ship" and while it's a bit of an awkward mouthful, "butcher of" is very evocative to me.

...and it kind of runs to the theme as well, bones and all. On the one hand, I think it's unlikely that the type of society here would steer away from using a racist sobriquet; on the other hand I don't want to drive away any readers. I've changed it to Corpse Ship Butcher, for now, but it's really quite awkward. I'll have another go in the edit.

On 09/08/2018 at 10:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

Except he's the one that dumped her? Kind of? She was, as I understood it, offering him NSA sexy funtimes and he wanted to Go Steady (or Be Exclusive or Settle Down or whatever the kids call it nowadays); she said no and he got all pouty about it.  This makes J look like a real jerk to me.

I've tweaked this; I think it's better now. Good catch.

On 09/08/2018 at 10:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

I'm going to echo @Mandamon 's wince at "race." "People" is much better. If you still want him to sound kind of slimy, "kind."

I've changed this.

On 09/08/2018 at 10:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

I think J's attack needs to be more clearly connected to the consumption/use of the tiger to really nail this reveal. It's a bit flat at the moment.

I was trying to not make that link too clear when he used them at first, so that it was not too obvious that it was the tiger that caused the attack. I was aiming for it to look  like him, so that the reveal had more weight. Perhaps it is not working like that however.

On 09/08/2018 at 10:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

Also, if it's a health/immunity/biology issue, I'd expect him to have more physiological reactions to eating something incompatible with his system.

It's wasn't so much about the physiological reaction to consuming that kind of marrow, but his lack of experience in harnessing the power/rage that results from using it. Having said this, I like the idea of a physical reaction, and will insert that. Thanks!  

On 09/08/2018 at 10:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

Is he comparing C, the one nonwhite (and one of only two nonmale) characters in this story to "unlimited" animals, with the implication that there's so many of them they are 1) okay to kill and 2) coming to eat your babies and violate your family so 1 is justified? I know he's the bad guy... but this is my extreme skepticism face. Extreme. Skepticism. 

I don't think his is: that certainly was not the intention. Ch is from a country where there are tigers, etc. which don't exist in W. Lord P is factually correct. Ch (allegedly) has the ability to use that power which (apparently) Wen adepts can't/struggle with. Putting (apparent) facts aside though, this touches on an area where I've always been uncertain. Surely I can have a racist character in my story, as long as the narrative doesn't support his view, and calls him out or rejects his position in some way? Having said that, it's not my intention for Lord P to be racist, his position is much/goals are broader than that.

On 09/08/2018 at 10:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

there's never been a lick of an intimation of there being tension between C's nation and J's (and anyway, weren't the king good and the times relatively peaceful?), so he's coming off as less villian-in-control and more tinfoil hat-wearing crackpot here...)

Lol. Well, he's trying to sell a belief to J. Does he have any evidence? Is it all smoke in the wind? Maybe, maybe not...

On 09/08/2018 at 10:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

I like the idea of it being too powerful/incompatible with him, though, and it does make D into a very morally grey character, which I enjoy. 

...since D's position is also grey, and seems to be 'working', I'm hoping that the reader will also entertain the possibility that Lord P's position could plausibly have some degree of truth in it.

On 09/08/2018 at 10:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

All this information about D is just not landing very well for me. She sort of pops up out of nowhere, then vanishes again straight off, and while I like what I've seen of her, I just don't care enough about her to be affected by the knowledge that J's been set up. Besides which, I'm more inclined to believe P's making all this stuff up, since so far that I've seen "on screen," D's been playing truthfully with J & co. Maybe she just didn't know they'd affect him that way, because she'd only ever heard from people who know how to use them properly? I mean, it's as likely right now as P telling the truth...

I'll need to continue to the end to see how this all plays out, than go back and adjust earlier scenes for key points. I will take a note with me to work on D's role, but perhaps more so Lord P's diatribe. Thanks for calling out.

On 09/08/2018 at 10:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

"put her down" ... Like she's a rabid dog? Whoo. Well. I guess I wasn't wrong about the first part then. In which case: these are very nasty sentiments that can and still do cause very real pain when they are used in a story. Claiming brown people are less than fully human is still done today to excuse any number of atrocities and systemic abuse.

As always, I hope, the very last thing I want to do in the story is convey any sense that I believe such things, which I don't, in even the tiniest sense. But, can I have a nasty character that voices this thought? My first reaction to your comment, which I very much appreciate and very much want to address, is that I have made the mistake of not having J recoil from the notion. 

On 09/08/2018 at 10:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

C is one of your best characters out of anything I've seen here to date, and I like her a lot, but between J's infatuation and fetishizing of her uniqueness and foreign appearance, and the way the narrative treats her as very much a different sort of creature from any of the men, this big reveal scene reads instead like an indictment of the one brown, active female character, one in which the narrative is tacitly approving P's theory. J, our sole, first-person POV, even agrees with P at the end. It's a really bad look.

Arrrgghh. That's definitely not my intention. I've tried (and I think I have) expunged all the bad stuff from J in the first (icky) submission. I really think I've got rid of the fetishistic stuff, and I'm high alert for it in the first full edit. I cut short this submission to get it in, but the next section, which now I will probably just make the second half of this one, is J rejecting Lord P's position. If you are willing to consider the question above, can I have Lord P come out with these comments, as long as the narrative/MC/sole POV rejects them (which is my intention)?

On 09/08/2018 at 10:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

what's coming across is less that he is bad and more that the story has been all this time working towards this idea.

Definitely not the intention. I'll cut the whole thing if I have to. Not the intention.

On 09/08/2018 at 10:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

If the desire is to use such incendiary views in the big bad's Evil Speech of Evil two things need to happen: first, the rest of the story needs to get cleaned up and in no uncertain terms treat C like as fully a human person as any of the male cast throughout the entirety of the story, and second, the narrative needs to be unequivocally crystalline clear that this is the opinion of the character, not the story.

I think it is, from the edits I've made, which I appreciate you haven't seen. I'm not saying it's there yet, but I think it's much better in that respect.

On 09/08/2018 at 10:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

Even then I'd still call it thin ice.

Going back to my earlier point, I guess I'm just still not sure whether there is any way to write a racist character that is'acceptable'.

On 09/08/2018 at 10:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

Frankly, P's whole Evil Speech of Evil is a little too blunt and rough for the smooth operator I think he's intended to be (I want him to be. I have a soft spot for elegant evildoers).

I can only call first draft and rush to submit. I always need to work and rework such things to make them effective.

On 09/08/2018 at 10:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

so let P just point J towards the the path to condemnation, not, like, move his feet for him, and J will make the connections on his own. That last line has a lot of impact and I like it, but right now it's just one more problematic statement in a unfortunately problematic chapter.

I genuinely don't know what to do. Where I want to be is as you say above, but I don't want to be there if I'm still on thin ice  

Thank you so much for the comments, and for persevering. Great to have you back.

<R>

[industrialistDragon]

Sorry this took so long, the program I write in kept eating what I'd written... grumble...

On 8/15/2018 at 2:11 AM, Robinski said:

I've changed it to Corpse Ship Butcher, for now, but it's really quite awkward.

Bloody C? C the Butcher, Ship's Butcher? Corpse-eater? (maybe a bit too on-the-nose for future plot...) Man-eater?  I mean, it would fit in a couple different meanings... C, the man-eater who survived the corpse ship? ehhh... maybe? 

 

On 8/15/2018 at 2:11 AM, Robinski said:

I was aiming for it to look  like him, so that the reveal had more weight.

But if he realizes it's the tiger on his own while it's happening, and maybe ends up unable to control it, it would make the tiger seem more powerful and play to P's throwing shade on D later on a little bit better... And not make J look quite so inept at his special ability as being completely oblivious to it does... >_>; 

 

On 8/15/2018 at 2:11 AM, Robinski said:

I guess I'm just still not sure whether there is any way to write a racist character that is'acceptable'.

There is; it's really tough.

TLDR of it is that the voice of the narrative, not just the characters, need to refute the bad opinions, the racist character themselves needs to be solidly grounded and more than just The Racist (not necessarily sympathetic, but more), and even then there's a high likelihood of missing the mark. 

 

I just read Vonda McIntyre's most recent novel, Moon and Sun, that's set in Louis XIV's court (with sea monsters) and that book managed it well I felt. It's also one of the easiest (and often misused) ways to get away with racist characters -- set them in historically racist times. But even then, the book was about what makes us human and standing up to powerful governments when their rules are morally repugnant, so even though slavery wasn't the point of the novel at all, was in fact a very minor sub-plot point and several characters held racist views and weren't confronted about them, the whole novel is going to the idea that an institution like slavery is wrong, or more abstractly, that just because someone looks different from you that doesn't give you the right to treat them like animals.

  But that's the subtler thrust and voice of the entire novel that's going to repudiate the opinions of the characters. I couldn't point to any one sentence or passage that showed on its face that the entire novel doesn't agree with the characters, it's more the opinion I was left with when finishing the novel, and that's part of what makes it so tough.  It's the voice of the author as it comes through the prose as a whole, and unfortunately silence or neutrality will be perceived as acceptance of the racist views.

Characterization is also very important. A caricature or badly-done stereotype of The Racist is going to go over as poorly as any other badly-done stereotype or obvious break from reality. Nobody ever thinks they're racist, much less the broadly reprehensible, straw-man The Racist stereotype we're all told to hate.  Nobody ever thinks they're a villain.  Everyone thinks they're the heroes, saving the good people and upholding order. It's just statistics, you understand. If they just followed the rules. I'm not saying a racist character has to be sympathetic or likable, or even particularly deep.  But they need to be more than just The Racist (A Really Bad Thing).

I can't offer a lot of concrete guidance for writing racist characters and having them read as "acceptable." A writer is pretty much always going to be swimming in dangerous waters in US publishing with a character like that, imo. It needs to be handled with a lot of focus, awareness, care, probably sensitivity readers if they can be afforded, and frankly, the knowledge that even with all that the writer's likely to get it wrong. It's just plain tough. 

I can however provide some links to resources for some other takes on the issue that will hopefully help some:

Writing with Color on writing racist characters -- Writing with Color is a great blog for questions about how to handle racial issues in writing. 

This reddit thread from /r/writing -- It's talking about writing a Nazi character, but I think it's applicable here. 

 

On 8/15/2018 at 2:11 AM, Robinski said:

I really think I've got rid of the fetishistic stuff,

The absolutely blatant icky stuff, yes, it's gone and that's really good. But C is still the only one whose skin tone is treated as a fundamental part of her character. I did spot more of the side characters in later submissions getting skin mentioned and that's also really good, but with C it's at least once a sub, and then it's usually J marveling about how beautiful, how exotic, the dark tone is.

C is still mostly defined by her dark skin and her relationship with J. This is tough with J being the POV character, but... it's like, even though she's supposed to have a life of her own, of which J is supposedly a small part, the sense is that she is just sort of frozen or in storage when J isn't paying attention to her. (All the non-J characters suffer from not having outside lives a little bit, but I feel like it's most pronounced with C.) 

C is treated differently by the story than any of the male characters, and suffers a lot from being the Smurfette of the story. Yes, D is female, but she is treated much more like the rest of the cast. C is different. C is Something Else, and that's the problem right now. C needs to just be one of the cast, not The One of the cast, if that makes sense. J's the protagonist, but C is the one woman, the one dark-skinned person, the one with the most-untouchable reputation, the one heaps-big scary killer, and now the one super-mage, and the one goal of the villain's plot. 

It might be worth it to try an experimental chapter where you sort of switch J and C -- give J some of C's specialness and just let C be a regular supporting cast member. If that makes any kind of sense? 

And of course, I have a link for this one, too:

Eight Absurdities We Force on Female Characters -- I just discovered this website, and for the most part I like it! Not all of these apply to C, but in particular numbers 3 and 6 I felt made linking it worthwhile. 

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by industrialistDragon

[Robinski]

8 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

Sorry this took so long, the program I write in kept eating what I'd written... grumble...

Good grief, no, please don't apologise. I was just starting to become concerned I had offended you; I'm just so keen to get this aspect as right as I can. I'm so grateful for your patience in 'newbie wrangling' where these matters are concerned.

8 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

Man-eater?

Oooh, that's good. I wonder if it's a bit hammer-to-the-head given Lord P's later revelation... I like it better than my replacement, so will put it in this version. Good shout!

8 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

But if he realizes it's the tiger on his own while it's happening, and maybe ends up unable to control it, it would make the tiger seem more powerful and play to P's throwing shade on D later on a little bit better... And not make J look quite so inept at his special ability as being completely oblivious to it does... >_>; 

Oh, mm, argh, yes; I see your point. I'll try it this way.

8 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

one of the easiest (and often misused) ways to get away with racist characters -- set them in historically racist times

Yes. I think I started with that as a justification in the very first submission, but it wasn't right, of course.

8 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

It's the voice of the author as it comes through the prose as a whole, and unfortunately silence or neutrality will be perceived as acceptance of the racist views.

Yup, right. I wasn't intending to be silent on the issue, but this submission clearly leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Working on it...

8 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

Everyone thinks they're the heroes, saving the good people and upholding order.

I still believe that's what Lord P thinks, but clearly he needs work to deliver the smooth villain that I'm aspiring to.

8 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

the knowledge that even with all that the writer's likely to get it wrong. It's just plain tough.

Whoopee...  I didn't set out to take this on when I had the idea. Ch was a redhead in the short story in this setting (now substantially superseded by this novella), but having decided to cast her as a person of colour, I feel like I have a chance to learn a lot (more) and have a real go at getting this aspect more right than I have so far.

8 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

The absolutely blatant icky stuff, yes, it's gone and that's really good. But C is still the only one whose skin tone is treated as a fundamental part of her character. I did spot more of the side characters in later submissions getting skin mentioned and that's also really good, but with C it's at least once a sub, and then it's usually J marveling about how beautiful, how exotic, the dark tone is.

Yeah, this is not a quick fix, but I will be vigilant for it in the edit: top of the list.

Much obliged for the links.

8 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

C is still mostly defined by her dark skin and her relationship with J. This is tough with J being the POV character, but... it's like, even though she's supposed to have a life of her own, of which J is supposedly a small part, the sense is that she is just sort of frozen or in storage when J isn't paying attention to her. (All the non-J characters suffer from not having outside lives a little bit, but I feel like it's most pronounced with C.) 

Second top of the list for the edit: give 'sidekicks' their own life (or reinforce what they do when not on screen).

8 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

J's the protagonist, but C is the one woman (1), the one dark-skinned person, the one with the most-untouchable reputation (2), the one heaps-big scary killer, and now the one super-mage (3), and the one goal of the villain's plot.

(1) - I feel like Lady P is or could be more of a character, with some work, and I was planning to try and flesh out D a bit more. (2) Not sure that going from BlkWit to Mn-Etr helps this - not that it was intended to, that wasn't my drift. I'll need to work on this; somehow. (3) I didn't really intend that, but appreciate it's gone that way to some extent. I'll need to try and address this; somehow.

The 8 Absurdities link is excellent, thank you! 

1 - Lone Representation: I feel like I do have other female characters, while still accepting that Ch is treated differently, I feel like she's not a Vin;

2 - Separate fighting style: I know you're not calling this one out, but I feel like I need to guard against it. Then again, with the magic system, I feel it doesn't call out any attribute that could be in danger of being considered 'unfeminine', J is cited by Lord P as having potential to be quite strong, but he's not Ch's superior in any way simply by being a man, I think.

3 - Enigmatic Decision-making: Hmm. I would not say Ch is any more enigmatic than D in her decisions, but that doesn't address the issue, I know!! Looking at my own writing (never any easy thing to do), I feel that this is a trait I have, but that it's not exclusive to the female characters. Anywho, I need to watch out for it. Check.

4 - "Feistiness": I'm glad you didn't call me on this one. I don't think Ch is 'feisty', I'm hoping she's capable, resourceful and intimidating (needs work).

5 - Femininity Balancing: I don't think I've done this per se, although I know I've trampled all over the 'not like other girls' thing.

6 - Frequent Reminders of Attractiveness: Guilty. I need to cut down on this.

7 - Sexual Abstinence: I really think I'm good here, Ch having been married and all, but also not displaying any signs of awkwardness in this area (I think).

8 - Gendered Magic: Again, I think I'm in the clear.

 

I am forever in your debt for your patience in going over this stuff with me. Thank you. Those links are super helpful.

I think there are 2 to4 subs remaining, and I'm going to try and bring this home with the above in mind. It'll still need loads of work, of course, but I'm willing to keep doing it. 

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by Robinski

[industrialistDragon]

5 hours ago, Robinski said:

I like it better than my replacement

Yay, thank you!  As @kais pointed out to me, it works because C is portrayed throughout as being none of the possible interpretations of that word (and personally I like that it's P who's the literal man-eater, since he's the cannibal gunning for C). Plus, it comes with its own theme song  

5 hours ago, Robinski said:

I feel like Lady P is or could be more of a character, with some work, and I was planning to try and flesh out D a bit more

I am all for D getting a bigger role, but I'm unsure adding more characters is what's needed here. For a longer work, Lady P is definitely ripe for developing, but I think fixing C's handling and reworking P's evil speech will be much more beneficial overall, if that makes sense? Otherwise, maybe swapping some pronouns on a couple day workers, or otherwise showing in the background that women also exist (the fix to the prison scenes of mentioning an entire women's wing and that there were other women prisoners in the yard worked well)? It's close, is what I'm saying. Under number 1 on that "8 ways" link, it has a little paragraph about how just throwing more characters on a story is not necessarily the best answer to this problem.  Going through the existing characters and simply asking "Why not a woman in this job?" or "Why does this character HAVE to be a man?" can be more beneficial. Does the head gardener have to be a man? Does the butcher? Is there any reason it can't be LADY P not Lord P who's the cannibal?  

5 hours ago, Robinski said:

I don't think Ch is 'feisty', I'm hoping she's capable, resourceful and intimidating

This is why we love her.  

[Robinski]

4 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

Plus, it comes with its own theme song

I knew this could only be Hall & Oates before I clicked on the link. Great tune  

4 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

I am all for D getting a bigger role, but I'm unsure adding more characters is what's needed here. For a longer work, Lady P is definitely ripe for developing, but I think fixing C's handling and reworking P's evil speech will be much more beneficial overall, if that makes sense?

It does. I think D is likely to appear again before the end, possibly Lady P too, but not as foci.

13 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

swapping some pronouns on a couple day workers, or otherwise showing in the background that women also exist (the fix to the prison scenes of mentioning an entire women's wing and that there were other women prisoners in the yard worked well)?

I should draw more from the part where they go through the kitchens, but there were women present when J was raging through the halls before. As to the other questions, fair ones all. I will think on it. Thanks again!

[kais]

Hooray! Here for the finale!

Overall

This is the end? No final showdown with C? UNFAIR. Or if this isn't the end, well done with the tension. Definitely ready for the final battle!

It was a reasonable reveal chapter, and I sufficiently hate the villain with all his coded language. I still get my hackles up about the othering of C, and think the narrative voice needs to do a better job of contradicting the villain. But that's relatively easy to do in edits. 

On 8/8/2018 at 10:24 AM, Mandamon said:

also I'd maybe steer away from discussions of race. Maybe substitute "people?"

YES. Unless trying to purposefully use coded language for the villain, in which case race does the trick. I shudder.

On 8/9/2018 at 2:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

I still have issues with the Black Witch moniker. Besides the not-great-ness of calling the one nonwhite (and one of only two nonmale) character in the story "black witch," it's awfully generic. It doesn't tell me anything about how or why or where she got it. It doesn't sound all that memorable, especially when her real name is much more unique. I mean, even "blood witch" or "corpse witch" (also still pretty depressingly generic, imo) would at least hint at the carnage she's supposed to have been responsible for. Someone in an earlier sub called her "the butcher of the corpse ship"  and while it's a bit of an awkward mouthful, "butcher of" is very evocative to me.

This exactly. I'd vote for corpse witch, or definitely 'the butcher of the corpse ship.' Both make my arm hair stand on end and are so deliciously descriptive.

On 8/9/2018 at 2:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

and it does make D into a very morally grey character, which I enjoy. 

Agree. I think D is my favorite right now

On 8/9/2018 at 2:53 PM, industrialistDragon said:

If the desire is to use such incendiary views in the big bad's Evil Speech of Evil two things need to happen: first, the rest of the story needs to get cleaned up and in no uncertain terms treat C like as fully a human person as any of the male cast throughout the entirety of the story, and second, the narrative needs to be unequivocally crystalline clear that this is the opinion of the character, not the story. Even then I'd still call it thin ice. 

#iagreewithindustrialistdragon

On 8/15/2018 at 0:11 AM, Robinski said:

I've changed it to Corpse Ship Butcher, for now

Ship butcher? Defiler of Corpses? Butcher of the Dead (oooh, yes, this one!)?

On 8/15/2018 at 0:11 AM, Robinski said:

But, can I have a nasty character that voices this thought? My first reaction to your comment, which I very much appreciate and very much want to address, is that I have made the mistake of not having J recoil from the notion. 

Oh for sure, but the narrative has to showcase it's violent opposition to the bigotry at basically every opportunity. J recoiling is a start, but having C not be the lone person of color would be helpful, too.

On 8/17/2018 at 3:21 AM, Robinski said:

I feel like Lady P is or could be more of a character, with some work, and I was planning to try and flesh out D a bit more

I love both of these ideas

On 8/17/2018 at 3:21 AM, Robinski said:

6 - Frequent Reminders of Attractiveness: Guilty. I need to cut down on this.

This is a tough one, because it's okay to have reminders that character A digs character B. It's another thing you can counter with authorial voice, if you'd like. Describing all the characters with their physical attributes (he was far too muscled for a musician, his shirt looked painted on) would then help balance a physical female description that was meant to be more sexual (her hands were strong, her hips looked stronger), etc.

On 8/17/2018 at 9:05 AM, industrialistDragon said:

As @kais pointed out to me

Because even when not here on the board, @industrialistDragon and I area always critiquing.

I'm sorry for the delay in responding, but it looks like ID got to most of the talking points and it's all gone well. She and I are on the same page with this. I think the edits you've proposed sound excellent, and I think this will be a fantastic novella very soon. C is one of my favorite characters currently lurking on the forum, and I think she and Magda would have a resoundingly good time at a bar together. 

 

As I go

- the 'black witch' thing is still problematic, I think. Maybe something more like 'ship-eating witch' or something? Color connotations are rough here, with her being basically the only character of color

- page 92: when did C reject him? I don't actually remember that happening

- this magical otherness that C's people are getting is also bothersome, especially the 'power to be feared' line

- page 94: ooof with the racism of our villain. It'd be nice to see J recoil from it, maybe even face some of his own implicit bias. It's cool to have racist baddies, of course, but the narrative has to make it very clear that it isn't authorial voice. In this area you could do it by having J react to the words appropriately

- wait... this is the end??

[Robinski]

Hey @kais, great to have your comments.

On 25/08/2018 at 5:29 AM, kais said:

This is the end?

Nope. Probably two parts after this one. I'm running out of words at novella length!! Most likely it will get a bit shorter though.

On 25/08/2018 at 5:29 AM, kais said:

wait... this is the end??

No. Did I say it was somewhere? My mistake if I did!

On 25/08/2018 at 5:29 AM, kais said:

think the narrative voice needs to do a better job of contradicting the villain.

Check. I will be onto that. Top of the list.

On 25/08/2018 at 5:29 AM, kais said:

I'd vote for corpse witch, or definitely 'the butcher of the corpse ship.' Both make my arm hair stand on end and are so deliciously descriptive.

Hmm, CW is good, but I do like the word 'butcher'. Maybe I'll go for Demon-Butcher-Witch-of-the-Corpse-Ship-from-the-Warm-Lands-Beatch! Too much?

On 25/08/2018 at 5:29 AM, kais said:

Ship butcher? Defiler of Corpses? Butcher of the Dead (oooh, yes, this one!)?

Lol, the debate rages on  

On 25/08/2018 at 5:29 AM, kais said:

Oh for sure, but the narrative has to showcase it's violent opposition to the bigotry at basically every opportunity. J recoiling is a start, but having C not be the lone person of color would be helpful, too.

There are two other non-white characters in the governess and the major domo, but I appreciate they are not major characters. They do have speaking parts though. Will try and work more in?

On 25/08/2018 at 5:29 AM, kais said:

On 17/08/2018 at 11:21 AM, Robinski said:

I feel like Lady P is or could be more of a character, with some work, and I was planning to try and flesh out D a bit more

I love both of these ideas

Cool beans. I'll try and do that, word count permitting.

On 25/08/2018 at 5:29 AM, kais said:

Describing all the characters with their physical attributes

Check. I need to increase the little description I have on the male characters atm.

On 25/08/2018 at 5:29 AM, kais said:

I'm sorry for the delay in responding

Absolutely no apology necessary.

On 25/08/2018 at 5:29 AM, kais said:

C is one of my favorite characters currently lurking on the forum, and I think she and Magda would have a resoundingly good time at a bar together.

Q could hold the jackets and look on wistfully. Oh wait, we've been here before...

On 25/08/2018 at 5:29 AM, kais said:

I think the edits you've proposed sound excellent, and I think this will be a fantastic novella very soon.

Yikes. No pressure then.

On 25/08/2018 at 5:29 AM, kais said:

black witch

I get it, I do. I intended it as the rather closed(-minded) society of Wen doing what it does, but I guess that's a lot of heavy lifting for my narrative to reset the balance on. Probably too much given my (lack of) qualifications in this area.

On 25/08/2018 at 5:29 AM, kais said:

when did C reject him? I don't actually remember that happening

Yeah, the whole relationship thing is not well played. It's going to get a complete retread in the Edit #1.

On 25/08/2018 at 5:29 AM, kais said:

this magical otherness that C's people are getting is also bothersome, especially the 'power to be feared' line

Right. I'll try and address that with the narrative, if I can't I will rethink.

On 25/08/2018 at 5:29 AM, kais said:

ooof with the racism of our villain. It'd be nice to see J recoil from it, maybe even face some of his own implicit bias. It's cool to have racist baddies, of course, but the narrative has to make it very clear that it isn't authorial voice. In this area you could do it by having J react to the words appropriately

Yup, yup, yup.

On 25/08/2018 at 5:29 AM, kais said:

this is the end??

Nope.

Thank you so much for you comments, Kais. Really appreciate. Boy, I'm going to have to roll my sleeves up soon.