Diomedes

Upcoming Singer/Parshman genocide

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He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

-Nietzsche Aphorism  

Part 1 Exterminating Parshmen

In Words of Radiance the first assumption of Bridge Four after they eavesdrop on a conversation of Shallan warning Adolin of the Singers is to assume she wants to exterminate them all.

Quote

“My men said”, Kaladin continued, “that you seemed to want to get the parshmen murdered” WoR. Ch. 70. P. 837

In OB Jasnah makes this offhand comment:

Quote

“It`s either that, or we completely exterminate the Parshmen so that the enemy has no hosts” OB ch. 39 p. 41.

It`s in the sake of an argument, I know, but the extermination of all Singers is actually thinkable. If Parshmen genocide is thinkable for our heroes, then it might be more than thinkable for more shady people among the leaders of the Alethi like Ialai Sadeas. And the real war has not even started yet. Throughout OB the Parshmen are referred to as “monsters”. What do you do with monsters? You slay them.

Additionally: the war against the Parshendi was ended by killing almost all Parshendi, why should the same trick not work on a grander scale?

 

Part 2 Rebellious Parshmen

The uprising of the Parshmen resembles a slave or peasant uprising. Slaves shove off their masters shackles and free themselves. You know how many slave/ peasant uprisings have been successful in western ancient and medieval history? Right, not a single one. They seized a lot of territory but were ultimately crushed, all of them.

There are reasons for this. Slaves don`t have any fighting experience, masters have professional armies, that fought their entire lives. We see this at the battle of Thaylen the Sadeas armies would have totally crushed the Singer-army, even with support from the Fused and the beasts. And the Fused aren´t they these tactical geniuses? Yes they are, but there are only a few hundred of them and a lot of them have gone insane.

Essentially the Singers are normal people like you and me trying to fight a professional boxer. Even if we had the best coach and the best strategy ever (the Fused/ Voidspren), we could never beat the professional boxer. Even if we trained every hour of every day for a year- we just could not.

But the Parshmen have the numbers, don`t they? If you compare current army sizes, yes. But, ultimately, there are way more Humans on Roshar and in Alethkar than Singers. All these Humans in Alethkhar need Parshmen guardians to look after them. So they cannot bring their full army force to battle because they need to garrison all those towns and cities in Alethkar. Remember the mantra Shardbearers don`t hold any territory? Well the same goes for the Fused. Plus the Alethi have a giant pool of possible recruits in Jah Keved. So no, the Singers don´t have the numbers.

Part 3 A war in Alethkar

What does this mean? Well Odium simply needs Humans to change sides on a massive scale to win the war. He is deadly sure that he will win: Like, there is no possible way he could not. Therefore, he has to have a sure plan on how to turn most of the military establishment to his side. How will he do it? By persuading them that it is necessary, just and feels satisfying to exterminate all Parshmen they find. I think Dalinar`s flashback chapters gave us a hint at what the current Alethi ethics of war are like. It will be worse, if the enemy happens to be not even human/ is a “monster”. Plus, what will they see, if they enter Alethkar? Abused Humans. This will surely persuade them that a war of extermination is not only necessary, but emotionally justified.    

I imagine the debate on the conduct of the war will open a rift between House Kholin, Aladar, Sebarial and the others. Dalinar will urge upon a honorable conduct of war. The other Houses will see this first as a weak and soft hand approach, then as a betrayal. After a few decisive battles for the Alethi at the beginning of the war, the Fused will opt for a guerilla war strategy. By that time the other Houses will desert from House Kholin and follow a new leader, perhaps Ialai Sadeas. They will begin the extermination of all Parshmen and fight the Kholins. By that time they will be in Odium`s hands.

The Vorin church will actively support them. Aren`t the Parshmen literally the Voidbringers? Aren`t they supposed to kill them according to their religion? Aren´t Queen Jasnah and Dalinar heretics? Aren`t the Knights Radiant traitors? What about that really powerful god that revealed himself and who says he loves us? He must be the Almighty right?

This is how the Alethi as a nation will become the monsters they fought.

Part 4 Odium`s children

Odium regards Humans as his children:

Quote

After you destroy it (Roshar), Dalinar. I am the one who will rebuild it. (...) Push through the agony. Then you will be victorious, my son. OB p. 1029

The same attitude goes for the dialogue with Taravangian. Odium does not actually want to kill all Humans, he wants to bring them into his fatherly arms. The Singers are treated pretty harshly by Odium and the Voidspren in OB, which is in stark contrast to how he treats Dalinar and Taravangian.  Odium wants his beloved children to fight for him, just like it had been in ancient times, before Honor and the spren intervened. The Singers are just a tool to get his children to his side and always have been. Odium will throw them away, once they will have outlived their usefulness.

(I posted an earlier version of this a few months ago, I hope you forgive me for opening a new thread)

Edited by Diomedes
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NOT beloved children. Lies. Used to turn people to his side. Old Listeners get the same story. How they want to see a god, but not what he is. It is a scam. 

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1 hour ago, 1stBondsmith said:

NOT beloved children. Lies. Used to turn people to his side. Old Listeners get the same story. How they want to see a god, but not what he is. It is a scam

Why is he so unforgiving to Venli though:

Quote

"You grow restless. The Fused inform me of it. This will change or you will be destroyed. OB p. 846.

Why isn`t he telling the same sweet lies to Venli?

He is systematically nice/paternal to humans and unforgiving to Singers. Moash gets away with soooo much stuff and he is even promoted. He does not need to be nice to Taravangian to bring him to his side. He could have easily threatened him, Yet, he does not do it. 

This cannot be a coincidence. 

Edit: We don`t actually see an interaction between an old Singer and Odium, do we? 

Edit: 2 Yes we do: Turash and Odium, see my post below.

Edited by Diomedes
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6 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

Why is he so unforgiving to Venli though:

Why isn`t he telling the same sweet lies to Venli?

He is systematically nice/paternal to humans and unforgiving to Singers. Moash gets away with soooo much stuff and he is even promoted. He does not need to be nice to Taravangian to bring him to his side. He could have easily threatened him, Yet, he does not do it. 

This cannot be a coincidence. 

Edit: We don`t actually see an interaction between an old Singer and Odium, do we? 

Because he's trying to persuade the humans, while he already has control of the Singers. He offhandedly tossed Yelig-nar to Amaram, and was...not nice to Taravangian. He's a master manipulator. He knows when to use the stick and when to use the lure.

 

I personally think that the Listeners will return, and a good number of Singers will become Listeners, and ally with the humans, under Venli's leadership. And they'll teach the Singers not to be open to the Fused, leaving them with no bodies to inhabit (eventually), and possibly find a way to get rid of them for good.

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He so vicious and unforgiving of Venli specifically, because she is currently the last member of a race of people who rebelled and intentionally avoided the return of their gods. 

Yes Venli facilitated that return... But it's not a coincidence in my mind that the only listeners to survive, Venli included, were all handed over to be offered to the Fused. 

The listeners were supposed to be forgotten. Instead, her role as the "last listener" is co-opting their history to convince the singers to join up in truth. 

Venli is a symbol that can be used... But she's also a risk. Just like her sister.

Edited by Calderis
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1 minute ago, RShara said:

and was...not nice to Taravangian

Quote

"Poor man" Odium said (...) he gently pushed T. up and into the chair.  "There is that better?"  ..... This was not how he`d (T.) imagined this conversation. 

Yes he was. the entire tone of O. is like between a father, who cannot believe his son made his first tiny baby-steps. It`s..well patronising

9 minutes ago, RShara said:

He's a master manipulator

yet he could not manipulate Venlli to stay in line.

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3 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

Yes he was. the entire tone of O. is like between a father, who cannot believe his son made his first tiny baby-steps. It`s..well patronising

yet he could not manipulate Venlli to stay in line.

Well I don't consider patronizing to be nice. He was treating T like a plaything to be toyed with, imo. Like, "You're so simple and easy, I don't even need to make threats. You're going to do what I say anyway."

Master manipulator, not master foreseer ;) Timbre adds an unexpected element to the whole thing. If it weren't for Timbre, Venli would certainly have been overwhelmed, imo.

Edited by RShara
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1 hour ago, RShara said:

I personally think that the Listeners will return, and a good number of Singers will become Listeners, and ally with the humans, under Venli's leadership. And they'll teach the Singers not to be open to the Fused, leaving them with no bodies to inhabit (eventually), and possibly find a way to get rid of them for good

One would hope that as many Singers follow Venli as possible.

1 hour ago, RShara said:

Well I don't consider patronizing to be nice

It`s Odium`s version of being nice ;).

The same as he is nice to Dalinar and not to the Singers.

1 hour ago, RShara said:

not master foreseer

Well, he is a master foreseer, who can foresee millenia into the future.

 

1 hour ago, RShara said:

He offhandedly tossed Yelig-nar to Amaram.

I looked that scene up. He is unnecessarily rude to the Singer Turash, an "old friend" who followed him for millenia by threatening and telling him, that he is just a tool: 

Quote

"You will follow me, or I will reclaim that which gives you persistent life. I care not for the shape of the tool. Only that it cuts. OB, p. 1131

(According to my theory he is totally lying here, he has a clear sweet spot for Humans.)

Then he is nice to Amaram, the little soldier boy, who just joined his ranks: 

Quote

"Well, done Amaram" ibid.

When A. voices disgust, O. does not simply command subserviance or threatens him, but he sucessfully persuades A. to do it willingly, by promising to let him kill Dalinar someday.

Assuming he does not let Dalinar kill him first. So this fatherly love only goes so far. 

However, there is a magnificent contrast in how O. treats Turash the Singer and Amaram the Human. Both voice dissent, Tushar is threatened and reminded how worthless he is, Amaram is persuaded.

Edited by Diomedes
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He may foresee but he can't see Renarin or where Cultivation is and he also got trapped in the first place.

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Odium is a masterful leader. Yes, he courts humans at every opportunity, because that's how you bring converts to your cause. Stick and carrot. His very first meeting with Dalinar exemplifies his strategy. A kindly old man speaking soft words before he shows Dalinar the true face of Odium.

Take the interaction with Turash though. Odium quickly and decisively made sure it was known that he was in charge, his supremacy unchallenged. With a simple threat.

I don't think Rayse cares for humans over Singers, he simply:

"Dosnt care for the shape of the tool."

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6 hours ago, DocHoliday said:

Odium is a masterful leader.

He would be,if his own Passions would not inhibit his own judgement.

How he drove Venli away from his cause, was really stupid. And he is in general pretty ungrateful to his loyal Parshmen. That is not good leadership!

Take Turash, he humiliated and threatened him for voicing dissent, while Amaram got away with it.

6 hours ago, DocHoliday said:

I don't think Rayse cares for humans over Singers, he simply:

"Dosnt care for the shape of the tool."

That`s what he says to Turash to humiliate him, He does not do the same to Amaram. 

I will not persuade you all with this, I know. Currently the textual evidence is not definitive enough to really prove it. It  leaves it as a possible option. It just makes too much sense in the grander scheme of things as I outlined above. Odium needs Humans on a large scale to fight for him, that won`t work if he keeps the Singers in his coalition. Besides, Humans are the original voidbringers. Why would Odium not have a soft spot for them? (You would say: Well, because he is Odium and all he does is hating and manipulating people; And I would answer: Well, we don`t know enough about Odium to say that he only hates people)  

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Eh. He had no need to "humiliate" Turash, he was just being honest. 

"do as your told, or I'll remove my power and you die" 

They're completely in his power already. He is the reason the are reborn. He can pull that away. They don't have a choice. 

The humans do. I doubt he'd treat them any better if he didn't have to convince them.

Edit: Hell, the singers do too. That's why Venli is stuck doing what she's been doing. Creating a narrative to sway them and painting the humans as evil.

The only people he's being straightforward with are the Fused, and by association Venli. She's close enough to all of them to see the truth anyways, and believed to be in a form in which she should be mind controlled. 

Edited by Calderis
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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

He had no need to "humiliate" Turash, he was just being honest

Yeah, he was honest, brutally and bluntly so, thereby humiliating him in front of Amaram and whoever else stood there. They don`t have a choice weather they fight, but on how well they fight. Humiliating your loyal subordinats is just bad leadership and does not encourage them to fight as well as they could. It is therefore odd coming from "master manipulator" Odium. He could have said something like:

"Oh dear Turash, I value your Passion, but Humans like Amaram are just as important to our victory as Singers. And you know what happens, if we do not win, right?"

 

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Hell, the singers do too

Sure he needs to manipulate them. But we don`t (?) see any direct contact between Odium and any contemporary Singer besides Venli. Therefore Venli is our best guess on how he would personally treat the average Singer. Maybe not as dismissive, but still. 

I stand by it.

Singers are his tools, Humans his toys. 

Edit: I also don`t understand why he wouldn`t just show himself to the singers in Alethkar. That would be really helpful for his propaganda efforts saying: "You all see me! I am GOD! Do you feel my power? Our enemies don`t stand a chance against ME!" 

He clearly does not have the same kind of reservation for Humans, as is shown during the battle of Thaylen, where he himself motivates the army of Sadeas. 

Edited by Diomedes
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No we don't see any direct contact. But we see a lot of manipulation of the Singers up to this point. 

Everything that Odium has done up to Thaylen city was for the benefit of the singers, not the Fused, or humans. 

Odium hasn't been fighting a war, he's been putting on a show. Kholinar could have been taken by the Fused alone easily, long before they actually attacked. Instead, they waited until the singers had gathered and had them assault the city so that it would be their victory. So that they would be included and emotionally invested. 

Thaylen City (which failed miserably) was supposed to be a show, to tell them they were on a side that couldn't possibly lose. If Thaylen city had gone as planned, there'd have been absolutely zero casualties, a conquered city, and a bunch of singers made confident that they were on the side that would bring their people justice against the humans. 

Venli's speeches are all about giving the singers a sense of identity and history. His actions up to this point have been nothing, in my opinion, but one large game to manipulate the singers as a species. 

Odium didn't think he could lose until now. That's changed. We'll have to wait and see if his treatment of the Singers changes going forward, but I think we've only seen him dismissive or outright abusive towarss things he already controls. In a Regal form, that would include Venli. 

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5 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Yeah, he was honest, brutally and bluntly so, thereby humiliating him in front of Amaram and whoever else stood there. They don`t have a choice weather they fight, but on how well they fight. Humiliating your loyal subordinats is just bad leadership and does not encourage them to fight as well as they could. It is therefore odd coming from "master manipulator" Odium. He could have said something like:

"Oh dear Turash, I value your Passion, but Humans like Amaram are just as important to our victory as Singers. And you know what happens, if we do not win, right?"

 

Sure he needs to manipulate them. But we don`t (?) see any direct contact between Odium and any contemporary Singer besides Venli. Therefore Venli is our best guess on how he would personally treat the average Singer. Maybe not as dismissive, but still. 

I stand by it.

Singers are his tools, Humans his toys. 

Edit: I also don`t understand why he wouldn`t just show himself to the singers in Alethkar. That would be really helpful for his propaganda efforts saying: "You all see me! I am GOD! Do you feel my power? Our enemies don`t stand a chance against ME!" 

He clearly does not have the same kind of reservation for Humans, as is shown during the battle of Thaylen, where he himself motivates the army of Sadeas. 

Theory: He doesn't show himself because he can't. (Mistborn spoiler)

Spoiler

Much like Ruin needed a piercing as a conduit to speak to Vin and others,

Maybe Odium needs a direct connection to speak to individuals.  Amaram's army was being influenced by an Unmade.  Dalinar was in the middle of an Investiture (most likely Honor, but who knows) applied dream state via Stormfather and Tanavast's cognitive shadow.  The Fused are Odium Invested by definition.  Venli is in Envoyform, presumably requiring Odium Investiture.  Taravangian is the only one that I can't identify a vector right now.  Who else has Odium spoken to?

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On 8/7/2018 at 5:26 PM, RShara said:

Because he's trying to persuade the humans, while he already has control of the Singers. He offhandedly tossed Yelig-nar to Amaram, and was...not nice to Taravangian. He's a master manipulator. He knows when to use the stick and when to use the lure.

 

I personally think that the Listeners will return, and a good number of Singers will become Listeners, and ally with the humans, under Venli's leadership. And they'll teach the Singers not to be open to the Fused, leaving them with no bodies to inhabit (eventually), and possibly find a way to get rid of them for good.

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. I feel like unity, and uniting as one to beat a common foe is swiftly becoming one of the major thematic motifs of SA. Also, Brandon being Brandon, and therefore a nice guy, with generally positive themes throughout his works; in short, I highly doubt that we'll see a Singer genocide. The Desolation is far more complex morally speaking than I, at least first assumed. SA is about doing what's right, rather than what's smart (as proven by our dear old friend Taravangian, smart does not necessarily equal right). Not trying to bash your theory, just sharing my opinion on where this is going.:)

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In regards to Odium's treatment towards humans vs singers, my understanding was that the singers can be scooped up by the Fused or given forms of power with very little effort on his part. In order to get cooperation from humans, however, it requires more coercion than actual threats. Even if it is portrayed as internal dialogue, you see the same sort of rhetoric ("It wasn't my fault, I can't be blamed" or the more direct "Give me your pain, you'll feel better") that seems to be indicative of Odium's version of making a deal with the devil. I'm on mobile, so I can't give direct quotes here, but think Moash, Amaram, or what he attempted with Dalinar. The major exception I see here is Mr. T, which is why I still feel like a loophole lies somewhere in his cooperation with Odium thus far. 

I'm not 100% sure of this, it was just my understanding of it.

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21 hours ago, Calderis said:

Venli's speeches are all about giving the singers a sense of identity and history. His actions up to this point have been nothing, in my opinion, but one large game to manipulate the singers as a species.

I totally agree with you.

His non-personal manipulation efforts just don`t show how he personally feels about Parshmen. And according to my theory he is going to drop them like a hot potato in the next book.

16 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Taravangian is the only one that I can't identify a vector right now.

Taravangian was involved with the Nightwatcher, which gave him the abaility to compile the Diagram. Still, even if he needed some invested bridge, couldn`t he just build one for the Singers with the Thrill to show himself? 

 

8 hours ago, Wyndlerunner said:

Also, Brandon being Brandon, and therefore a nice guy, with generally positive themes throughout his works; in short, I highly doubt that we'll see a Singer genocide

SA second chapter featured a murder rampage of Szeth killing civilians left and right. It then cued to bridgeruns of slaves being sacrificed en masse for questionable ends. SA is as dark as it gets. I don`t think the anti-Kholin Alethi Houses will suceed, but I think they will attempt a genocide. 

  

Edited by Diomedes
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2 hours ago, Diomedes said:

I totally agree with you.

His non-personal manipulation efforts just don`t show how he personally feels about Parshmen. And according to my theory he is going to drop them like a hot potato in the next book.

Taravangian was involved with the Nightwatcher, which gave him the abaility to compile the Diagram. Still, even if he needed some invested bridge, couldn`t he just build one for the Singers with the Thrill to show himself? 

 

SA second chapter featured a murder rampage of Szeth killing civilians left and right. It then cued to bridgeruns of slaves being sacrificed en masse for questionable ends. SA is as dark as it gets. I don`t think the anti-Kholin Alethi Houses will suceed, but I think they will attempt a genocide. 

  

Attempting a genocide is one thing, doing it, another. Also, in regards to SA being dark, war is war, and Brandon doesn't shy away from that. Being a part of the same religion as Brandon myself, there is very little in his books that is outrightly amoral, by our standards- which genocide most certainly is.

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6 minutes ago, Wyndlerunner said:

Attempting a genocide is one thing, doing it, another.

What I meant by "attempting genocide" is that they will kill thousands upon thousands Singer civilians. This is genocide. By "suceeding" I meant they actually manage to kill every Singer in Alethkar, which I don`t think they will.  

Quote

 there is very little in his books that is outrightly amoral

So nothing Sadeas did was amoral? Sacrificing thousands upon thousands of people for your greed is not amoral? Slavery is not amoral? Sadeas once executed all of an Parshendi army that had surrendere, that isn`t outrightly amoral? This kind of brutal behaviour is a key component of SA. I mean: read the Dalinar flahback chapters!

 

As for your religion. Brandon knows the bible, he knows how much ugly stuff men are capable of: 

When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz,33 the Lord our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down,together with his sons and his whole army. 34 At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed[c] them—men, women and children. We left no survivors. Deuteronomy 2, 32-34.

Please understand: This is not meant to critizise you or your beliefs. Don`t take this personal! These parts of the bible need to be seen in context, which I am not providing here.

However, Brandon knows these parts of the bible pretty well. Maybe it even compelled him to write SA and it`s dark themes. Point is: Just because you as an author portray your villains commit horrible crimes, doesn`t mean you are celebrating it, actually you are doing the exact opposite.   

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While I fully agree that some people will take actions towards genocide... I think that probably the fastest way to end up with a swarm of Windrunners smacking down some humans. 

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2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I think that probably the fastest way to end up with a swarm of Windrunners smacking down some humans

Thus opening a rift between Knights Radiants and those Alethi, which compells them to join the dark side of the force.  

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Perhaps. But that's bound to happen anyway to some extent. 

And that comes down to a issue that's going to vary by the individual. Some aren't going to agree to fight beside the Fused. Some will suck it up and deal with the Radiants, and some will turn to Odium. No matter what happens those things are going to be true. 

People, and I'm including all species of people here, have to make their own choices. Humans, Singers, Aimians. Every individual has to make the choice for themselves. There's going to be good guys and bad guys among all of them I think. Some will make horrible choices, other will fight that. 

I don't think Odium cares as long as he can keep them fighting. As long as they are directed at each other instead of him, he wins. 

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19 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Some aren't going to agree to fight beside the Fused

Well none of them will side with Parshmen, they just tried to exterminate. That`s why Odium needs to betray the Singers and fully side with Humans.  

But, I know, you don`t buy that theory.  

22 minutes ago, Calderis said:

People, and I'm including all species of people here, have to make their own choices. Humans, Singers, Aimians. Every individual has to make the choice for themselves. There's going to be good guys and bad guys among all of them I think. Some will make horrible choices, other will fight that.

This is what is going to happen. Again I totally agree with you. 

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1 hour ago, Diomedes said:

What I meant by "attempting genocide" is that they will kill thousands upon thousands Singer civilians. This is genocide. By "suceeding" I meant they actually manage to kill every Singer in Alethkar, which I don`t think they will.  

So nothing Sadeas did was amoral? Sacrificing thousands upon thousands of people for your greed is not amoral? Slavery is not amoral? Sadeas once executed all of an Parshendi army that had surrendere, that isn`t outrightly amoral? This kind of brutal behaviour is a key component of SA. I mean: read the Dalinar flahback chapters!

 

As for your religion. Brandon knows the bible, he knows how much ugly stuff men are capable of: 

When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz,33 the Lord our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down,together with his sons and his whole army. 34 At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed[c] them—men, women and children. We left no survivors. Deuteronomy 2, 32-34.

Please understand: This is not meant to critizise you or your beliefs. Don`t take this personal! These parts of the bible need to be seen in context, which I am not providing here.

However, Brandon knows these parts of the bible pretty well. Maybe it even compelled him to write SA and it`s dark themes. Point is: Just because you as an author portray your villains commit horrible crimes, doesn`t mean you are celebrating it, actually you are doing the exact opposite.   

At this point it's obvious that nothing I say will convince you, and I'm fairly certain that there is naught you could say to convince me. So let us agree to disagree, and move on with our lives.;)

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