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Why didn't Harmony help the Southern continent people


Solarserpent

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It seem very odd that Harmony helps the people in the Basin rebuild and doesn't help the people survive in the South. He changed Spook to a Mistborn so he is capable of changing people on a limited scale but perhaps he could not do so much to an entire group of people due to his Shardic intent. Any Ideas.

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Sazed fixed everyone on Scadrial's Genetic issues. I think this also extended to the Southerners. The problem is that their issue isn't genetic. 

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Comatose

So here's my last question. If there ARE people on the other side of the world, did Vin kill them all by placing the sun on their side, or do they have they're own Ruin/Preservation battle going on over there as well? Do they also have allomancy feruchemy and hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they're not dead. Yes, Rashek was aware of them. In fact, he placed them there as a reserve. I knew he wanted a 'control' group of people in case his changes to genetics ended with the race being in serious trouble. All I'll say is that he found a way other than changing them genetically to help them survive in the world he created. And since they were created by Ruin and Preservation, they have the seeds of the Three Metallic Arts in them—though without anyone among them having burned Lerasium, Allomancers would have been very rare in their population and full Mistborn unheard of.

source

"All I'll say is that he found a way other than changing them genetically to help them survive in the world he created." 

I think what Rashek did was a Spiritual alteration. I believe he altered the portion of their spiritweb that brass stores heat from, and Sazed was inexperienced enough that he didn't realize what the problem was yet. 

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On 8/4/2018 at 11:35 AM, Calderis said:

Sazed fixed everyone on Scadrial's Genetic issues. I think this also extended to the Southerners. The problem is that their issue isn't genetic. 

"All I'll say is that he found a way other than changing them genetically to help them survive in the world he created." 

I think what Rashek did was a Spiritual alteration. I believe he altered the portion of their spiritweb that brass stores heat from, and Sazed was inexperienced enough that he didn't realize what the problem was yet. 

Why do you think that, as opposed to something more mundane like changing the geography like he did in TFE? 

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5 hours ago, tmnsquirtle said:

Why do you think that, as opposed to something more mundane like changing the geography like he did in TFE? 

Because evolutionary changes don't happen that quickly, and there were no ashmounts in the south. They were not changed genetically do deal with an altered environment because he wanted a pure stock in case what he did in the north failed. 

So he altered them to be able to survive in the higher temperatures through another means. When the orbit was fixed, and temperatures lowered, they started freezing to death in mild Temps, because they are spiritually set to operate at temperatures significantly higher. 

Edited by Calderis
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  • 2 weeks later...

Even if its not genetics it seems odd for Harmony to do nothing to help them fit with to the planet's new orbit. Sazed made things easy for people in the basin to make up for the 1000 years of the Lord Ruler and the devastation that followed, perhaps he couldn't find a balance in acting to help the people in the south. 

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Remember - Harmony recreated the world using his Copperminds - the copperminds were filled by his people in their travels around the Empire.  However, it's likely none of people ever reached the southern hemisphere.   The power of preservation and ruin comes first and the knowledge of how to use the power later.  Sazed had an advantage of having collected a great deal of the world's knowledge in his copperminds, but he wouldn't know about the Southerners at the time.

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9 hours ago, MrsMolly said:

Remember - Harmony recreated the world using his Copperminds - the copperminds were filled by his people in their travels around the Empire.  However, it's likely none of people ever reached the southern hemisphere.   The power of preservation and ruin comes first and the knowledge of how to use the power later.  Sazed had an advantage of having collected a great deal of the world's knowledge in his copperminds, but he wouldn't know about the Southerners at the time.

That seems extremely implausible to me. Having the power of both shards that were responsible for the planets' creation would definitely make him aware that there were people there, since all scadrians (with the possible exception of worldhoppers, but they would make up a tiny fragment of the population) are heavily tied to ruin and preservation.

It seems much more likely that either he decided not to help, or he was going to and kelsier stepped in in his place, or kelsier was his help all along.

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On 8/6/2018 at 6:40 PM, Calderis said:

Because evolutionary changes don't happen that quickly, and there were no ashmounts in the south. They were not changed genetically do deal with an altered environment because he wanted a pure stock in case what he did in the north failed. 

So he altered them to be able to survive in the higher temperatures through another means. When the orbit was fixed, and temperatures lowered, they started freezing to death in mild Temps, because they are spiritually set to operate at temperatures significantly higher. 

 

SIDE Topic:  You may be interested in an article I cam across recently, turns out we're discovering this is not the case nearly as much as we previously thought.  Turns out bacteria and virus are facilitating "horizontal gene transfer" which goes a long way to explaining the more complex systems.  They're now thinking something like 8% of our genome arrived that way rather than pure Darwinian mutation, including some core bits (turns out the membrane between placenta and the fetus is actually re-purposed code for a virus's protective envelope.

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/11/637780618/understanding-horizontal-gene-transfer-in-the-tangled-tree

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14 minutes ago, Quantus said:

 

SIDE Topic:  You may be interested in an article I cam across recently, turns out we're discovering this is not the case nearly as much as we previously thought.  Turns out bacteria and virus are facilitating "horizontal gene transfer" which goes a long way to explaining the more complex systems.  They're now thinking something like 8% of our genome arrived that way rather than pure Darwinian mutation, including some core bits (turns out the membrane between placenta and the fetus is actually re-purposed code for a virus's protective envelope.

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/11/637780618/understanding-horizontal-gene-transfer-in-the-tangled-tree

That’s exactly right, although it’s way more prevalent in Bacteria and Archaea than it is in higher animals. But you’re right that a significant percentage of not just our own genome but also that of at least all animal life (I don’t think there are retroviruses that infect plants, but I could be wrong) is leftover junk from past retroviral integration into a species’ germ cells. It’s actually a pretty handy way of determining how closely related two species are; humans and chimps for example share something like 99.2% of ERVs, humans and gorillas around 96%, and so forth. It’s a really interesting finding. 

But technically I don’t think retroviral integration would be considered horizontal gene transfer; if I recall correctly, that term is reserved for natural processes by which two different organisms exchange genetic material. Viruses absolutely play a significant role in shaping genetic evolution in the long run, but I think it’s considered a separate process than HGT. I could be mistaken though.

Edited by Fanghur Rahl
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My knowledge is limited to that article and wikipedia, but it sounds like they are using the term as a fairly blanket "anything that's not vertical", they break down several different paths but it's all gibberish to me (Im more of a physics guy)

So....sDNA editing bacteria on Ashyn?

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Sazed doesn't even help all scadrians or stops crimes of humanity unless it actually hinders his plans/design. It doesn't mean that he's a natural to both shards and that he's a benevolent person/god that his concept of helping people in the longrun is the same as ours. Don't forget that he is still Ruin and his intent was never changed even combined with  preservation. 

For all we know the decision to leave the southern scadrians alone might've been his conscious decision because he thinks its gonna help them in the long run(which it already did with them having advance technology). 

It might even be possible that kelsier doesn't even know that he was likely hatmony's help for the southern scadrians (he's not above using people or not even announcing his interference)

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Yeah, but Sazed seems to have a radically different view of Ruin’s intent than Ati did, something more akin to Death from Supernatural (yes, I know I use that analogy a lot, but in this instance it does seem to fit) or at least that’s how it appears. And also presumably a more reasonable view of Preservation as well. Leras and Ati both seemed almost strawman extremists when it came to their respective intents, whereas Sazed seems much more moderate, at least at this point.

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On 8/4/2018 at 10:35 AM, Calderis said:

Sazed fixed everyone on Scadrial's Genetic issues. I think this also extended to the Southerners. The problem is that their issue isn't genetic. 

"All I'll say is that he found a way other than changing them genetically to help them survive in the world he created." 

I think what Rashek did was a Spiritual alteration. I believe he altered the portion of their spiritweb that brass stores heat from, and Sazed was inexperienced enough that he didn't realize what the problem was yet. 

I don't think Rashek altered the Southern Scadrians' Spiritual selves (hereafter referred to by the abbreviation: SSSS :P) in this way.  Or, if he did, well...  Anything Rashek did with the power of the Well of Ascension, Sazed would have known about almost immediately and could have fixed quickly and with relative ease, and that's pretty much exactly what he did at the end of HoA (with possible exceptions, most notably the Southern Scadrians.  Being aware of a problem and knowing how to fix it are two different things).  
The Hero of Ages epigraphs are my basis for this:

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"Holding the power did strange things to my mind. In just a few moments, I became familiar with the power itself, with its history, and with the ways it might be used.  
Yet, this knowledge was different from experience, or even ability to use that power."
- The Hero of Ages, chapter 2 epigraph (emphasis mine)

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"Rashek soon found a balance in the changes he made to the world—which was fortunate, for his power burned away quite quickly. Though the power he held seemed immense to him, it was truly only a tiny fraction of something much greater."
- The Hero of Ages, chapter 6 epigraph (emphasis mine)

Given that Sazed had access to the entirety of Ruin and Preservation, with none of the time/quantity limits of the Well of Ascension, I deem it highly unlikely that Rashek could have done anything that Sazed would be unable to fix.  
Sazed: "Anything you can do, I can do betterrrrr..." 
Rashek:  <_<  

Plus, altering the SSSS seems to contradict the idea of a 'control' group mentioned in the WoB you referenced.  I think it's more likely that Rashek altered the geography, or atmosphere/weather, or plant/animal life, or anything except the Southern Scadrians themselves, to help them survive the higher temperatures of the planet beyond the protection of the ashmounts.  That's the whole point of a control group: don't change them in any way, even just their spiritweb (especially their spiritweb, if you ask me).  

...

I'm certain Sazed knew about them soon after his Ascension, but as for why he didn't help the Southern Scadrians...  Perhaps they were getting along just fine in the restored Scadrial for a while, and the whole freezing-to-death thing only started later, very gradually, as an unforeseen side-effect of all the changes Sazed made to the planet.  By the time it became a true crisis, Kelsier could have found a way to spike himself a new body, and Sazed just sent Kelsier to help rather than fixing it himself, for whatever minimal-intervention philosophy that Sazed had adopted by then.

Meh, I dunno, I'm not too attached to that theory.  If you can even call it a theory; it's more like, "There's nothing in canon that directly disproves the possibility of this sequence of events, as far as I know."  *shrugs*  :lol:

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Rashek wanted, specifically, a genetic control group. I'm proposing that that remained perfectly intact. 

And regardless of what other modifications Sazed made, there's no way that the southerners aren't altered. They freeze to death in mild weather. That is not a geographic issue. 

The alternative to Sazed not noticing/not knowing how to fix the issue at the time, is that Sazed just didn't want to. 

I'll stick to my headcanon for now. 

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17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And regardless of what other modifications Sazed made, there's no way that the southerners aren't altered. They freeze to death in mild weather. That is not a geographic issue. 

Yeeaaaah that's a fair point, haha.  If they had been completely unaltered, then they should have been just fine after Sazed restored Scadrial, and obviously they're not. 
Though I suspect they could find some live-able geographical areas where they wouldn't freeze to death.  ...But then that begs the question of why didn't Sazed just transport them to such an area, or transform the land near them into such an area... Hmm... 

Just found this WoB (relevant part near the end):

Quote

Questioner

What's going on in the other pole of Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson

Oooh that's a big ol' RAFO. But it is a RAFO with a promise that you will find out before too long.

Questioner

So in these coming two Mistborn books, maybe? Because there was some mention of something to do with that, I thought, briefly, in Alloy of Law, just some vague--like there was something that had been found, or some brief contact, maybe...

Brandon Sanderson

*Brandon clears his throat, significantly* let me say this, so I don't spoil things. By the time we do the 1980's level technology, the whole world will have been explored. I mean, I can't really do the second trilogy, with-- I mean, by then, you know what the continents look like, and things. Even in Scadrial, where they just haven't explored nearly as much, but they're kind of behind on that so far, so sometime between now and then, exploration of the world has to happen. 

Questioner

Good point. Because they didn't have the whole volcano thing going on. 

Brandon Sanderson

No they didn't. They did not.

Questioner

How is there anyone alive over there?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I can tell you this because it's in the annotations. The people down there were placed as kind of a control group to the changes that were made to the people of the north, where changes were made to live with the ash and things like that. But other changes were still made to them. Or changes happened to them, shall I say. 

source

That throws my claim of no changes whatsoever out the window. :lol:

That WoB's last clarification of, "Or changes happened to them, shall I say." suggests to me that Rashek did whatever to allow them to survive, and then afterwards they were altered even more (by, uh, evolution / natural selection or something? ...Autonomy! :ph34r:  ...When in doubt, blame Autonomy... ;)), which IMO would make it more likely that Sazed was unable to provide them with a quick fix, since it wasn't simply a matter of undoing something Rashek did with the Well of Ascension's power.

I still say that there's no way Sazed wouldn't have been aware of them, however.  He was either unwilling or unable to solve their freezing-to-death problems through direct intervention, and I'm leaning towards "unwilling".  That's based mostly on his philosophy as we see it in The Bands of Mourning, which admittedly is quite some time after the Southern Scadrians' plight.  Though with the power of two Shards available to him, and as much time to figure out that power as Kelsier had to figure out a way to return to the Physical Realm, "unable" seems like too big of a stretch to me.

 

 
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7 hours ago, Calderis said:

The alternative to Sazed not noticing/not knowing how to fix the issue at the time, is that Sazed just didn't want to. 

That doesn’t really strike me as an attitude Sazed would take. More than pretty much any other, Sazed seems to be undeniably benevolent, at least immediately after he took the power.

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@Fanghur Rahl that was my entire point in mentioning it. I can buy that Sazed overlooked an issue he wasn't expecting, and by the time he was aware of the problem he was too limited by his dual intents. 

I can't buy that he chose to let an entire people suffer and die. No matter how the intents have pushed and changed him, at that point he was still Sazed. 

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8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I can't buy that he chose to let an entire people suffer and die. No matter how the intents have pushed and changed him, at that point he was still Sazed. 

I'm pretty sure even now he's still Sazed. It bothers him immensely that he must restrain himself from preventing suffering, maiming, etc. His conversation with Wax in the carriage reveals that while he now recognizes the necessity of the possibility of murderers, etc. He, Sazed, doesn't LIKE having to let people murder.

In short, he acknowledges the restrictions that being a Shard places on him, but that doesn't mean he likes those restrictions.

Edited by Juanaton
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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

@Fanghur Rahl that was my entire point in mentioning it. I can buy that Sazed overlooked an issue he wasn't expecting, and by the time he was aware of the problem he was too limited by his dual intents. 

I can't buy that he chose to let an entire people suffer and die. No matter how the intents have pushed and changed him, at that point he was still Sazed. 

Then again, he DID choose to let the Koloss remain more or less as they were rather than modifying them into a species unto themselves that reproduces and grows like anyone else; that was kind of a douche move in my opinion, so who knows?

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53 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Then again, he DID choose to let the Koloss remain more or less as they were rather than modifying them into a species unto themselves that reproduces and grows like anyone else; that was kind of a douche move in my opinion, so who knows?

Not quite.

Edited by tmnsquirtle
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23 minutes ago, tmnsquirtle said:

I just meant that he could have done away with the hemolurgical aspect altogether and just made them a full species; technically, as I understand it at least, as I’m not at Era 2 yet, they’re still basically horrifically mutated humans. Regardless though, I think my general point still stands even if I concede that point, since he clearly could have at least made it so that the adults didn’t have to suffer their skeletons outgrowing their skin and essentially skinning themselves alive. Again, pretty douche move there. 

 

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