TheManKnownAsHoid

Kelsier's Death

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I find it odd how specific Kelsier's death is. The Lord Ruler is pierced through the chest with a spear, basically a long spike, then uses that spear to stab Kelsier. And we know Ruin was able to manipulate people, particularly unstable people like Vin's mother and Gemmel, so it possible that the rebels who stabbed the Lord Ruler were influenced by Ruin to create a Hemalurgic Spike. And the Lord Ruler still had a spike in his chest when he stabbed Kelsier. This isn't really a theory, I would just like to get the ball rolling on a discussion and throw that out there.

Edited by TheManKnownAsHoid
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53 minutes ago, TheManKnownAsHoid said:

Does anybody find it odd how specific Kelsier's death is? The Lord Ruler is pierced through the chest with a spear, basically a long spike, then uses that spear to stab Kelsier. And we know Ruin was able to manipulate people, particularly unstable people like Vin's mother and Gemmel, so is it possible that the rebels who stabbed the Lord Ruler were influenced by Ruin to create a Hemalurgic Spike? And the Lord Ruler still had a spike in his chest when he stabbed Kelsier.

Kelsier has been confirmed by WoB not to have a spike, so although he was being influenced by Ruin's plans, Ruin was not controlling his motions and therefore he did not have the intent necessary to perform hemalurgy.
Even if he had, Kelsier died after being stabbed by the spear, but a hemalurgic spike would not kill: vital organs actually move to accommodate the spike and keep the subject alive.  (Otherwise, Inquisitors would be very very dead). And if we ignore that as well, Kelsier's cognitive shadow doesn't seem to have any of his mistborn powers so an extra hemalurgic power would likely mean nothing at that point.

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I cant find that WOB in Arcanum, but he definitely had at least one spike at the end of Bands of Mourning. And he didnt have metals as a cognitive shadow, so we have no way of knowing.

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11 minutes ago, TheManKnownAsHoid said:

I cant find that WOB in Arcanum, but he definitely had at least one spike at the end of Bands of Mourning. And he didnt have metals as a cognitive shadow, so we have no way of knowing.

He has a spike through his eye at the end of BoM.

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Kelsier did get metal as a Cognitive Shadow in the form of the bolt from Nazh and Khriss' chair. Even if it weren't a viable metal, as a Mistborn he would have been able to burn it, and he wasn't able to sense it at all. 

Without a Physical aspect, his powers failed. 

Additionally, spiking him at his death would have left the spike behind in his corpse, providing no benefits. 

Edited by Calderis
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8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Additionally, spiking him at his death would have left the spike behind in his corpse, providing no benefits. 

But spiking modifies the spirit web, which is the same whether your a cognitive shadow or not, and so it could have provided him benefits. I doubt that it’s a spike however simply for the reason of what attribute would they spike into Kelsier. He’s dead, and presumably to them going to the beyond anyway, so even if they spiked him with an attribute, it would just be waste.

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15 hours ago, Snipexe said:

But spiking modifies the spirit web, which is the same whether your a cognitive shadow or not, and so it could have provided him benefits.

Except if you remove the spike, you leave the alteration because the Identity is not matched. It requires the physical anchor of the spike. 

The spike is not coming with you when your Cognitive separates from the body. If it did, the Koloss who died wouldn't have reverted to Humans when Kelsier saw them die.

Edited by Calderis
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14 hours ago, Calderis said:

Except if you remove the spike, you love the alteration because the Identity is not matched. It requires the physical anchor of the spike. 

The spike is not coming with you when your Cognitive separates from the body. If it did, the Koloss who died wouldn't have reverted to Humans when Kelsier saw them die.

I wonder if there's a way to make hemalurgy permanent. Like a way to copy that little bit of spiritweb, so the spike can be removed or, god forbid, reused.

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People have theorized similar about Hoid. His healing heals his spiritweb, so it's theoretically possible to use him as an infinite source of spikes.. Of course, the WoB about it just says that spiking Hoid would work very weirdly.

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Honestly, I am kinda confused as to what this theory is trying to say, and how it is relevant to current and future cosmere.

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Why would it have to be relevant to the current or future cosmere? Its relevant to the past in the cosmere. As long as it provides something to think about and consider, it is worth posting. 

Edited by Chaos
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The roast is strong with this post. Though, in my opinion, I dunno if Ruin would try to force the Lord Ruler to kill Kelsier. Kelsier was kind of Ruin’s agent on Scadrial while he was there, even though he didn’t actually have a spike. If anything, I feel like Ruin would have tried to make the Lord Ruler take the bracers off. It’d be interesting if he actually HAD been spiked by the spears. It depends on whether or not the head of the spear was in him, or poking out the other side without touching him. Which is kind of how I’d always imagined it. It’s probably not realistic though.

Edited by KalaDANG
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I dont think the head matters. The Inquisitors' eye spikes poked out the back

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17 minutes ago, TheManKnownAsHoid said:

I dont think the head matters. The Inquisitors' eye spikes poked out the back

The issue with a spear is if the metal head is all the way out of the body, and only the wooden haft is actually touching. 

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Hmmm, he was flat on the ground from the Lord Rulers hit when he was stabbed. So the head was likely stopped by the ground before leaving his body.

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Yeah sorry I meant the head of the spear. My bad. But we’re talking about the Lord Ruler, and he was standing up the whole time. We don’t really know if the rebels that stabbed TLR used enough force to get the head of the spear all the way through his body so the metal head of the spear wouldn’t be touching him. It all kind of depends on that. If we’re talking about Kelsier getting spiked though, I dunno what the point of spiking him would be. He was dead anyways.

Edited by KalaDANG
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It was Kelsier's "death" that truly connected me to the Cosmere universe. When that happened, after everything he and Vin went through, I was in a state of sadness for days. This was a character that I connected with and he showed true traits of a Robin Hood-hero. After further reading and realisation that there is more to this, I think it's safe to say that he's pretty obsessive. This one is gonna be a RAFO for what his true plan is and if there is influence somewhere. Personally I don't think that Ruin had left a mark.

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1 hour ago, KalaDANG said:

Yeah sorry I meant the head of the spear. My bad. But we’re talking about the Lord Ruler, and he was standing up the whole time. We don’t really know if the rebels that stabbed TLR used enough force to get the head of the spear all the way through his body so the metal head of the spear wouldn’t be touching him. It all kind of depends on that. If we’re talking about Kelsier getting spiked though, I dunno what the point of spiking him would be. He was dead anyways.

The spear head doesnt have to leave the body. If it did, when Inquisitors are made, the spike would have killed them before it gained a Hemalurgic charge. And the book clearly had the rebels shove 2 spears right through his body. It gains its Hemalurgic charge as soon as it touches moving blood.

Edited by TheManKnownAsHoid
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1 hour ago, Wander89 said:

It was Kelsier's "death" that truly connected me to the Cosmere universe. When that happened, after everything he and Vin went through, I was in a state of sadness for days. This was a character that I connected with and he showed true traits of a Robin Hood-hero. After further reading and realisation that there is more to this, I think it's safe to say that he's pretty obsessive. This one is gonna be a RAFO for what his true plan is and if there is influence somewhere. Personally I don't think that Ruin had left a mark.

This is why I love Brandon. He connects us to his characters. I had a similar reaction to the end of Lev Grossmans The Magicians. I was depressed for multiple days.

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Foopers. I have to explain myself like, seventeen times. All I’m saying is that whether or not TLR could have been hemalurgically spiked depends entirely upon whether or not the rebels stabbing him with spears only stabbed hard enough to just barely get the metal heads in, which would technically allow for hemalurgical side effects, or if the rebels stabbed him with enough force that the spear head went ALL THE WAY THROUGH HIM and stuck out the other side of his body, leaving him with only the wooden haft still inside of him and the metal heads not touching his insides. HE CAN’T BE HEMALURGICALLY SPIKED IF THE METAL ISN’T TOUCHING HIS INSIDES. Sure, maybe it would be active for a split second when touching blood or whatever like you said, but as soon as the head passes out of his body on the other side, it wouldn’t affect him anymore. Does that make any sense? Maybe I’m just not saying it in a way that can be understood. All I’m saying is that there’s no way to definitively know whether or not the metal heads were still inside him. So we really can’t know if he was being feeling the effects of Ruin’s influence, since we can’t even know if he was hemalurgically spiked. Even if he was though, I’m kind of confused at why you think Ruin would want TLR to kill Kelsier instead of Ruin trying to have TLR kill himself somehow. That would have advanced his plans quite nicely. I don’t mean to sound aggravated or anything. Repeating myself over and over because I’m misunderstood gets annoying real quick, so I wanna make sure I’m clear with what I say. And, if you can, don’t get all rage monster with ma boy Ishar. He didn’t say anything rude. He just didn’t really understand the point you were trying to get to with your theory, so he asked. And you kind of responded with a lot of hate there. Even if he had said something rude, it’s a theory. That said though, I’m also kind of confused at what Ruin would be trying to accomplish even if TLR HAD been spiked. TLR was gonna kill Kelsier anyways. Nothing else happened in that square that really advanced his plans much. Killing Kelsier in a specific way wouldn’t have changed or accomplished anything that he would care about. The Skaa still would have rebelled, Vin still would’ve gone after TLR, and they still would’ve won. Even the church of the survivor would be virtually the same. (Aside from the possibility of the spear no longer being a symbol). So, I’m kind of with Ishar a little bit. What’s the point?

Edited by KalaDANG
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This thread only relates to Mistborn, and should probably be moved to the mistborn forum, instead of the Cosmere forum, to avoid spoilers.

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Cosmere Discussion is a spoiler board.

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On 8/3/2018 at 9:16 PM, TheManKnownAsHoid said:

Why would it have to be relevant to the current or future cosmere? Its relevant to the past in the cosmere. As long as it provides something to think about and consider, it is worth posting. Now there is also the question of why your comment was warranted. We were having a nice, thought provoking discussion, and you added nothing to it. You just posted an irrelevant comment that was honestly a little hostile. If you dont like this theory, move on.

First off, I don't mean to come off as hostile, but I am genuinely confused as to what this theory is saying. What are you actually theorizing. the original post says a lot:

On 8/2/2018 at 3:22 PM, TheManKnownAsHoid said:

Does anybody find it odd how specific Kelsier's death is? The Lord Ruler is pierced through the chest with a spear, basically a long spike, then uses that spear to stab Kelsier. And we know Ruin was able to manipulate people, particularly unstable people like Vin's mother and Gemmel, so is it possible that the rebels who stabbed the Lord Ruler were influenced by Ruin to create a Hemalurgic Spike? And the Lord Ruler still had a spike in his chest when he stabbed Kelsier.

Are you asking if the rebels were influenced by Ruin? if Kelsier was spiked? if TLR was spiked? Cause I see what could be considered 3 different theories in this one post. Please clarify. Even though that is the OP, it would also be good to know where the discussion has evolved too, cause I am confused by that too. What are you trying to say you think happened?

 

21 hours ago, KalaDANG said:

I dunno what the point of spiking him would be. He was dead anyways.

15 hours ago, KalaDANG said:

So, I’m kind of with Ishar a little bit. What’s the point?

Clearly I am not the only one questioning the relevancy, (Thanks for the support btw @KalaDANG) and it is not to point out that I don't "like" the theory, I find it unlikely, and there are 2 main reasons: 

A. I don't understand what the theory is trying to say (Which might make my thoughts on the theory irrelevant)

and

B. from what I do understand, I don't see why it is relevant, and generally, when something is irrelevant it is wrong simply because it is simply adding more complexity to the books (I think we all know the Cosmere has plenty), and is pointless.

 

I do think that an interesting (and relevant) question that is brought up by this theory though is whether or not it is possible to spike a person without killing them.

 

21 hours ago, Wander89 said:

It was Kelsier's "death" that truly connected me to the Cosmere universe. When that happened, after everything he and Vin went through, I was in a state of sadness for days. This was a character that I connected with and he showed true traits of a Robin Hood-hero. After further reading and realisation that there is more to this, I think it's safe to say that he's pretty obsessive. This one is gonna be a RAFO for what his true plan is and if there is influence somewhere. Personally I don't think that Ruin had left a mark.

Mistborn was the first Brandon Sanderson book I read, and Kelsier's death shocked me. Of course, it was nothing compared to The Hero of the Ages.

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17 hours ago, KalaDANG said:

 All I’m saying is that whether or not TLR could have been hemalurgically spiked depends entirely upon whether or not the rebels stabbing him with spears only stabbed hard enough to just barely get the metal heads in, which would technically allow for hemalurgical side effects, or if the rebels stabbed him with enough force that the spear head went ALL THE WAY THROUGH HIM and stuck out the other side of his body, leaving him with only the wooden haft still inside of him and the metal heads not touching his insides. HE CAN’T BE HEMALURGICALLY SPIKED IF THE METAL ISN’T TOUCHING HIS INSIDES. Sure, maybe it would be active for a split second when touching blood or whatever like you said, but as soon as the head passes out of his body on the other side, it wouldn’t affect him anymore. 

In no way was it suggested that TLR was the one gaining the Hemalurgic power. TLR was being spiked by the rebels and then into Kelsier. TLR is like the sacrifices, while Kelsier is like the Inquisitor. 

 

1 hour ago, Ishar said:

From what I do understand, I don't see why it is relevant, and generally, when something is irrelevant it is wrong simply because it is simply adding more complexity to the books (I think we all know the Cosmere has plenty), and is pointless.

It is relevant because it has spawned 23 posts and created an interesting discussion. And the whole point of the Cosmere Discussion forum is to discuss irrelevant theories and minutiae about the Cosmere. We dont have to do this. We do it because we want to. We want to discuss this theory.

Edited by Chaos
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4 hours ago, TheManKnownAsHoid said:

In no way was it suggested that TLR was the one gaining the Hemalurgic power. TLR was being spiked by the rebels and then into Kelsier. TLR is like the sacrifices, while Kelsier is like the Inquisitor. 

 

It is relevant because it has spawned 23 posts and created an interesting discussion. And the whole point of the Cosmere Discussion forum is to discuss irrelevant theories and minutiae about the Cosmere. We dont have to do this. We do it because we want to. We want to discuss this theory. You seem to want to shut down theories that are too complex for you to understand. If you dont like or understand it, again, move along. You are filling this thread with posts that are not needed and not wanted.

 

And for all of you who feel the theory doesnt have a point, you can just stop posting. Its not that difficult.

I am not trying to shut this theory down as you would say, I am trying to understand the theory, because as you said, I want to discuss it, and your post telling people who don’t understand what you are saying because you are so unclear are even more uneccesary, aggressive, and frankly very rude. All I want is for somebody to clarify what your theory actually is. What are you saying?

Also, you talked about, as I mentioned, how you want to discuss this theory. You can’t discuss a theory with only the people who agree with it. That is like arguing with air. The people who agree with it will simply agree. A discussion means you have two sides, and you literally just asked one side to leave and “move along.”

On its relevancy, just because it has spawned a discussion does not make it relevant to the present and future Cosmere. Sure, it makes it interesting and thought provoking, but I never said it wasn't. I want to know if it is relevant, because when things are relevant, they become not just interesting and thought provoking, but actually important.

All I want is for you to clarify your theory.

Edited by Ishar
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