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Was Miles a Gold Savant?


NiceBleach

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Miles burned a lot of gold for his, to quote Wax, "constant compounding." Did that make him a gold savant? The time he used his gold Allomancy in The Alloy of Law didn't seem to differ from normal gold burning. Miles isn't mentioned in The Coppermind's entry for savant. Was Miles a gold compounding savant? Is that a thing? In The Alloy of Law, Wax mentions that compounding can be dangerous to stop once started, which is kind of what Kelsier said when he told Vin that flaring metals frequently did strange things to the people who did so.

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Brandon didn't originally plan on there being feruchemical Savants and so there really isn't such a thing as a 'compounding savant'. Compounding doesn't really trigger the process that pushes someone towards being an allomantic Savant (because the feruchemical effect overrides the allomantic one) so if Brandon doesn't plan on there being feruchemical Savants you can't really become one that way.

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Kurkistan

Is there such a thing as a Feruchemical savant?

Brandon Sanderson

I did not write Feruchemical savants into the original outline. Whether or not I will do them- it’s highly unlikely because it’s not there and Mistborn is getting trickier and trickier in that regard. But I didn’t write them in, so… that’s a “probably not”.

source

Brandon even draws a distinction between compounding and Savantism at once point. However, a compounder who burns a lot of their allomantic metal normally certainly could become a Savant. We don't really see anything that would lead us to think Miles is one and he doesn't seem to burn gold often enough to reach that point, but it's not impossible.

Edited by Weltall
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I agree with @Weltall.

Feruchemy deals with portions of the spiritweb that are already intrinsic. You store and tap and basically augment physically something that is pre-existing Spiritually. 

With Savants, the allomantic power gets pushed through their spiritweb and warps their spiritual aspect around an arguably unnatural power. While that same power is what is fueling the Feruchemy in compounding, it's both a "natural trait," and in most cases is also being stored immediately before its ever used. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I agree with @Weltall.

Feruchemy deals with portions of the spiritweb that are already intrinsic. You store and tap and basically augment physically something that is pre-existing Spiritually. 

With Savants, the allomantic power gets pushed through their spiritweb and warps their spiritual aspect around an arguably unnatural power. While that same power is what is fueling the Feruchemy in compounding, it's both a "natural trait," and in most cases is also being stored immediately before its ever used. 

 

In normal feruchemy Id agree since you'd have to spend the (probable) literal Years storing up enough of a given trait cause savantism to emerge.  But Savantism is all about having over-exposed yourself to that trait/Investiture, so would the compounding "hack" move feruchemy (which is  normally naturally limiting) back into the field where overexposure is possible, since it's back to tapping huge amounts of power directly?  Put another way, isnt the whole Compounding Hack more or less that you are able to Use Allomancy to Feruchemical effects

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@Quantus personally, no, that's not how I see it. The power is being shaped into a form that is familiar to the Spiritual Aspect. There's no warping because it's only playing within natural boundaries anyway. 

To start with, is Feruchemy altering the Spiritual aspect to create its effects? Or is it just altering the output of the Spiritual before it manifests in the Physical? I think that there is basically a constant output from the Spiritual to the Physical, and when you store you siphon off that output into a metalmind, and when you tap you add to that output, so that the physical is changed, but the Spiritual is static. 

Then with Miles... The only thing that could count as a "warping" in miles is his inability to feel pain. That isn't the only way that that could be achieved though. For context her for what I'm about to propose 

(snipped to hide OB spoilers, click the source at your own risk.)

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wiresegal

-snip- Could a transgender Singer use their ability to shift forms to change their biological reality? And, finally, could a Spren be non-binary, if it wasn't personified in a typical male/female way?

Brandon Sanderson

In the cosmere as a whole, a person's perception of themselves has a lot of power over both their Spiritual and Physical forms. It is possible, with investiture, to change their biology to match Cognitive perceptions--and while this could be easier for some races (like the Singers) it's not outside plausibility for any race.

-snip-

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So with Miles, and his healing ability if he heals so often and so quickly that he doesn't register the pain, and he truly starts to believe, from his seeming invulnerability, that he can't feel pain, what's to stop that from actually altering his Spiritual Aspect so that he can't? 

Edited by Calderis
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27 minutes ago, Quantus said:

In normal feruchemy Id agree since you'd have to spend the (probable) literal Years storing up enough of a given trait cause savantism to emerge.  But Savantism is all about having over-exposed yourself to that trait/Investiture, so would the compounding "hack" move feruchemy (which is  normally naturally limiting) back into the field where overexposure is possible, since it's back to tapping huge amounts of power directly?

I'll directly quote the WoB that I only linked to earlier.

Quote

Questioner

Can you compound like a, can you compund metalminds to the point where you become like a savant?

Brandon Sanderson

A savant happens because persistent use of the power has an effect on your soul, warping it. Compounding is a very different thing, so while you could draw some very powerful effects, I would not call them the same thing, even if they are imitating one another at certain points.

source

So no, between the fact that Brandon has no plans for feruchemical Savants and the explicity drawing of a line between Savantism and compounding, I don't think compounding can create Savants.

And @Calderis has the Realmatic explanation.

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2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Quantus personally, no, that's not how I see it. The power is being shaped into a form that is familiar to the Spiritual Aspect. There's no warping because it's only playing within natural boundaries anyway. 

To start with, is Feruchemy altering the Spiritual aspect to create its effects? Or is it just altering the output of the spiritual before it manifests in the Spiritual? I think that there is basically a constant output from the Spiritual to the Physical, and when you store you siphon off that output into a metalmind, and when you tap you add to that output, so that the physical is changed, but the Spiritual is static. 

Then with Miles... The only thing that could count as a "warping" in miles is his inability to feel pain. That isn't the only way that that could be achieved though. For context her for what I'm about to propose 

(snipped to hide OB spoilers, click the source at your own risk.)

So with Miles, and his healing ability if he heals so often and so quickly that he doesn't register the pain, and he truly starts to believe, from his seeming invulnerability, that he can't feel pain, what's to stop that from actually altering his Spiritual Aspect so that he can't? 

Let me back up real quick and say that I dont knwo of anything specific with Miles that i would point to as a Savantistic ability, or anything specific about Gold Compounding (aside from the motivation to burn it constantly). 

My only point is that, in a more general sense, I fully believe that a Compounding can potentially result in a Savant in the way that Allowmancy can but Feruchemy cannot. To your point about Warping, I dont know because Im looking at one WOB that says Savantism cannot be Spiked (so not a Spiritweb feature) but another saying Savantism is all about "using Investiture a lot, and it's starting to permeate your soul", but there are several otehrs where he specifi8cally uses words like Warp and Change your soul.  And several that are saying he is not happy with the direction that Savantism is taking in the books and so he might be going back to the drawing board on it some. Hell, there is one that outright says Wax's savantism is an example of him blending his Allowmancy and Feruchemy, and several talking about the possibility. So Im not sure how consistent our data is going to be at the moment.  But at it's coreit's still all about extended over-exposure to the investiture, which is precisely the line that Savantism carries things across.  Also worth noting that, at least how Brandon is using the term, savantism is a cosmere-wide effect, not specific to Allowmancy.

I dont really get your point about Feruchemy not normally changing your spiritual aspect; that's true, but it's the same for Allomancy so I dont see how that's relevant?

 

16 minutes ago, Weltall said:

I'll directly quote the WoB that I only linked to earlier.

So no, between the fact that Brandon has no plans for feruchemical Savants and the explicity drawing of a line between Savantism and compounding, I don't think compounding can create Savants.

And @Calderis has the Realmatic explanation.

I disagree entirely with that read of the WOB. Brandon is clarifying that Savantism and compounding are mechanically wildly different things (I dont think that was actually the question, but that was the answer he gave). None of this has yet touched on the fact that all the WOB state that p[prolonged exposure to kinetic investiture causes changes. And since Compounding results in just that sort of prolonged exposure, there is no realmic reason that it should not eventually result in the same.  For what it's worth I also dont really care in the slightest what his future plans are for this conversation; Im only talking world mechanics, not likelihood of plots.

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@Quantus the warping mentioned is precisely why he s "backpedalling on Savants."

Not wanting to stray into spoilers here, but we've seen Savants clearly in Spook, and in Soulcasters (which I'm not going to dig into) and the thing that they have in common is that there are severe and obvious drawbacks to what has been done to them. 

Wax lacks these negative effects. I am reticent at this point to call Wax a Savant precisely because of that. He has things going for him and no negative aspects to his overuse of the power. 

31 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I dont really get your point about Feruchemy not normally changing your spiritual aspect; that's true, but it's the same for Allomancy so I dont see how that's relevant?

This is apparently where we disagree. 

What I'm saying is that the power involved in Allomancy is shaped by the metal, and then pours through the Spiritual aspect to create an effect. If what I believe is true, that is not the case in Feruchemy (with physical traits at least).

Imagine that Allomancy pours power into the Spiritual aspect to create an effect and that then flows outward to the Physical. What I'm saying Feruchemy does is intercepts the natural flow of Investiture from the Spiritweb to the Physical and intercepts that to store. When you tap, it moves outward from the metal to the physical and doesn't touch the Spiritual. 

If this is true, then in compounding Feruchemy, there would be now power influx to the spiritual, it would hit the Feruchemical trait and then proceed either into the metal where the compounder wished it, or directly to the Physical aspect to manifest. 

No Spiritual pressure to cause the warping from overuse. 

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26 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Quantus the warping mentioned is precisely why he s "backpedalling on Savants."

Not wanting to stray into spoilers here, but we've seen Savants clearly in Spook, and in Soulcasters (which I'm not going to dig into) and the thing that they have in common is that there are severe and obvious drawbacks to what has been done to them. 

Wax lacks these negative effects. I am reticent at this point to call Wax a Savant precisely because of that. He has things going for him and no negative aspects to his overuse of the power. 

This is apparently where we disagree. 

What I'm saying is that the power involved in Allomancy is shaped by the metal, and then pours through the Spiritual aspect to create an effect. If what I believe is true, that is not the case in Feruchemy (with physical traits at least).

Imagine that Allomancy pours power into the Spiritual aspect to create an effect and that then flows outward to the Physical. What I'm saying Feruchemy does is intercepts the natural flow of Investiture from the Spiritweb to the Physical and intercepts that to store. When you tap, it moves outward from the metal to the physical and doesn't touch the Spiritual. 

If this is true, then in compounding Feruchemy, there would be now power influx to the spiritual, it would hit the Feruchemical trait and then proceed either into the metal where the compounder wished it, or directly to the Physical aspect to manifest. 

No Spiritual pressure to cause the warping from overuse. 

To what you said about Wax, I agree. There's another Coinshot who also uses a steel bubble in Bands of Mourning (the fact that Wax can create a steel bubble is has been used as an indication of Wax's savant nature), and Wax doesn't treat that steel bubble as odd or abnormal when he encounters it, and savants are definitely both odd and abnormal.

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2 hours ago, Calderis said:

This is apparently where we disagree. 

What I'm saying is that the power involved in Allomancy is shaped by the metal, and then pours through the Spiritual aspect to create an effect. If what I believe is true, that is not the case in Feruchemy (with physical traits at least).

Imagine that Allomancy pours power into the Spiritual aspect to create an effect and that then flows outward to the Physical. What I'm saying Feruchemy does is intercepts the natural flow of Investiture from the Spiritweb to the Physical and intercepts that to store. When you tap, it moves outward from the metal to the physical and doesn't touch the Spiritual. 

If this is true, then in compounding Feruchemy, there would be now power influx to the spiritual, it would hit the Feruchemical trait and then proceed either into the metal where the compounder wished it, or directly to the Physical aspect to manifest. 

No Spiritual pressure to cause the warping from overuse. 

Thats not how I was picturing the maxchine in the general case, but the more I think about it the more I realize my image didnt consider medallions much, so Im intrigued.  Im not sure I see why  Allomancy flows Metal in the body (metal to Investiture conversion that then forges a bond to usually Preservation, right?) to the Spiritual then back to manifest in the Physical, but the metalminds go metal straight to physical and bypass the spiritual? And may be a more enlightening question for me, how would burning an unkeyed or unsealed metalmind behave?

I was picturing most of the 'nuts and bolts of the effect' being on the spiritual, largely because it is something that can be Spiked out and given whole to another. So I had the burned metal becoming the investiture of the conduit to the shard and under normal circumstances getting plugged into the part of the spirit-web that knows how to turn Investiture into a given effect, something that requires both a genetically comparable spiritweb and whatever extra bit of machinery needs Snapping to attach.  Feruchemists I pictured as having a similar (if reversible) spiritweb machine that produces an effect via investiture, and the had the ability to slosh their own natural investiture back and forth from the spiritual to the physical*, with the In vs Out direction of Investiture flow determining the nature of that effect by the nature of said spiritweb machine. In both cases the actual Metal is the mechanism that governs and regulates the transfer from the Physical to the Spiritual and determines which effect the spiritweb machine is going to produce (this is frequency-based in my head, if that helps). Feruchemy is much messier in the sense that a bunch of the rest of the spiritweb, the users Identity and whatnot, echoes and/or gets imprinted on the Investiture ("Preserved"?) unless steps get taken.  In Compounding the fact that the metal gets burned establishes the end-positive conduit to Preservation, but the fact that it had already been Pre-Invested and "Tuned" to the feruchemical effect, that that end-positive conduit get steered to the Feruchemical string of the Spirit-web rather than the normal one, if only the Positive-flow effect (so potentially super-heavy but never super-light).  

...Thats about as far as Ive gotten with that theory, and I havent delved how nicrosil and medalions fit; I think Unkeyed work but Im not so sure about Unsealed.  Im starting to think Ettmetal just creates a sort of temporary hologram spiritweb that mimics the spiritweb machine it's exposed to. 

 

*Im going to have to delve more into the cosmetic theory of Gravity, but one rabbit hole at a time. 

 

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