Lighteyes suck at apologising... (some spoilers)

[kaos]

i must say im kind of stunned, which values ppl expect in this book(maybe in fantasy/midieval times in general).

do you realy think that most ppl of high society would apologize and respect "normal" ppl - today in the real world?

 

there was a split society in amercia just 50 years ago - segregation.

there is still a caste system in India today, where ppl murder their children because of caste violations.(ok its outlawed but it still happens)

just look at many none western societies.

 

this is not a perfect world scenario =)

 

 

would you apologize to a very rude person?

Kaladin is a very rude person in WoR. he might be nice to his friends, but others? lighteyes?

hes even called out for it by several ppl.

 

a King does not apologize to a commoner. it would be odd the otherway around.

You aren't wrong, but we are judging this from an outside perspective. From our perspective everyone is more or less equal as 'people' though we tend to err on the side of the main characters. We are those nosy friends that always judge people and their situations.

 

But, y'know, their fictional. So it's okay.

[kaellok]

Dalinar's words to Kaladin regarding his initial investigation of Amaram make it sound like it's a pretty done deal as far as he's concerned; 17 different people from different walks of life all vouching the same story.  Story-wise, it makes sense for Dalinar to seriously re-question and re-examine Amaram after Kaladin's actions--if only because Kaladin was the only person willing to stand with Adolin, and him without Shards.  It makes sense for Dalinar to doubt Amaram's reasoning, and believe that Kaladin may have been correct.  It seems to me that continuing to think of the sting operation starting at the same time as the initial one doesn't make as much sense.

 

However, up until the point that Dalinar gets confirmation that Amaram is a liar, murderer, and thief, he has no reason to believe it is true, and every reason to think it isn't.  He took the word of a relative stranger, and on that word put serious effort into questioning one of his closest friends; Kaladin was right to tell Dalinar, Dalinar was right to investigate as he did, and it's reasonable for Dalinar to believe his findings.  One word against seventeen, especially against someone that has the weight of years and experience versus one who doesn't, is going to count for little unless there is any other evidence.  And there's not, because Amaram is a clever, evil bastard.  

 

Adolin tells Kaladin that the only reason he believes him about Amaram is because Amaram is too good; we know that Dalinar is too trusting.  Dalinar trusting someone that he shouldn't is just something that he does.  But, he's getting better at figuring things out before disaster strikes.  So, I don't think that Dalinar acted badly, or wrongly in this.  Sure, he was wrong, but based on the information that he had at the time he did the best he could--and more than most would have.  Even asking Kaladin to stay in the prison cell wasn't being unreasonable or wrong; it was containing a volatile, potentially hostile, situation.  Out of sight, out of mind, as they say.  Hide the darkeyes that did the impossible, and then slandered a prominent lighteyes, out of the way of lighteyes that would seek retribution until the furor has died down enough that he can go back to being an asset instead of a liability.  

 

If Kaladin had directly confided in Dalinar in his Surgebinding abilities beforehand, it's important to say, all of that would have never been an issue.  Kaladin rightfully didn't know this, and so he didn't, but he's just as wrong in this case as Dalinar was (they aren't.  Neither of them are.  That's my point.  Or they both are.  You can pick either one you want.)

 

Also, in trying to find the exact time you're referring to Shallan v. Kaladin in the chasm, I realized something: You're right, she didn't apologize there (p. 823 hardcover, Chapter 69 Nothing).  Despite the non-apology, Kaladin is being an odious chull at the time--an attitude that, while justified based on his experiences--he seems to actually revel in.  He loves his hatred of lighteyes far too much to let it go.  And then, later, Shallan does offer an apology; not a great one, admittedly, but "Yes, I supposed I would [regarding how she'd retain a bad attitude after being made a slave].  I am sorry that you were treated in such a way, but it could have been worse.  You could have been hanged."  (p. 835 hardcover, Chapter 70 From a Nightmare.)  Not once does Kaladin ever apologize to her, at least not that I could find skimming through the chasm scene, or that I could remember.  He doesn't offer apologies any better than the lighteyes do.

 

Kaladin is a hate-filled man with a bad attitude, and the lighteyes treat him that way.  His actions are understandable, and their reactions to his actions are equally understandable.  Both sides are just atrociously bad at creating some kind of bridge between them, but huge strides have been made by the end.

 

Note: all puns were intended.

[Sphinx]

I agree that lighteyes are terrible at apologising to darkeyes. However I also agree that Kaladin is not exactly a saint, though given the microagressions he suffers on a daily basis, it's hard to really fault him for reading them into places where they don't exist like being ignored by two people on a date when you're the escort/chaperone/bodyguard.

 

That said, the boots scene. Had Kaladin been the lighteyed equivalent, it would probably have gone the exact same way. Shallan doesn't scam him out of his boots because she's lighteyed and he's darkeyed, she scams him out of the boots because Tyn is sitting there, egging her on and putting her in this hilariously awkward position and it's funny. It's not even important that Shallan's eyes are light for the role she's playing (I don't think Unkalaki princesses, if they even really exist, are necessarily lighteyed). So it is unfair for Kaladin to throw this in her face as an example of her behaviour towards darkeyes, because that wasn't actually really a factor.

 

None of the characters are perfect. A great number of them still manage to be likeable and sympathetic. It's one of the things I love about these books.

[kaos]

 

That said, the boots scene. Had Kaladin been the lighteyed equivalent, it would probably have gone the exact same way. Shallan doesn't scam him out of his boots because she's lighteyed and he's darkeyed, she scams him out of the boots because Tyn is sitting there, egging her on and putting her in this hilariously awkward position and it's funny. It's not even important that Shallan's eyes are light for the role she's playing (I don't think Unkalaki princesses, if they even really exist, are necessarily lighteyed). So it is unfair for Kaladin to throw this in her face as an example of her behaviour towards darkeyes, because that wasn't actually really a factor.

It is completely fair for him to throw that in her face. First off he doesn't know she was being egged on. From his position it was all her, so it was completely fair for him to assess her from that interaction. And if he was lighteyed (enough to outrank Shallan anyway) he probably wouldn't even be on that patrol. And even if he was lighteyes and on that patrol Tyn might have changed tacks because pissing off a lighteyes of high enough rank could have stormed up their plans later. One of the reasons they thought they were safe was because he was of lower rank than them in their society and when they infiltrated higher society meeting him was almost a non-factor.

 

Basically one of the reasons they did the whole scam was that it had a good reward (training for Shallan) for minimal risk (who cares what a darkeyes thinks of you or the fact that you are inconveniencing him). 

 

So yeah, it's fair of Kaladin to view that as Shallan being a lighteyes jerk who thinks nothing of preying on darkeyes. Because that's exactly what she did.

[Sphinx]

Tyn clearly intends to present Shallan as a Horneater before the men are anywhere near close enough to identify their eye colour. Shallan is surprised to find the leader of the patrol on horseback to be a darkeyes. He's obviously trusted, and Shallan basically just plunges forward, hoping that she won't run into him again. She never thinks "oh, he's darkeyes, so even if he is important it doesn't matter"

 

Unfair was likely too strong of a word to use, as you're right, from Kaladin's perspective it is completely fair. However, in this case, his eye colour was pretty immaterial to the outcome of the situation (except for providing one instant of extending the conversation which resulted in Shallan being "offended" again)

[kaos]

I capitulate on that point then.

[Kurkistan]

On Dalinar (again, yes, I know):

 

Doing a reread, we have more information on the timeline. WoR Ch 63 "this Bordin had come to the Shattered Plains in haste a few weeks ago, bearing the madman and other mysterious cargo." This chapter is during Kaladin's (and Adolin's) imprisonment and just shortly after Dalinar "recovered" from his "illness."

 

The Taln interlude indicates that Bordin came right to Dalinar/Elhokar upon arrival, rather than loitering about for weeks, and "a few weeks" is, at the least, 2.

 

Looking at the timeline again, there were 10 days (exactly 2 weeks) between Kaladin's imprisonment and this chapter. and 20 days between this chapter and Szeth's attack.

 

So once again nothing definite, but I still think we lean towards the Taln interlude happening chronologically where it fell in the book. Otherwise Shallan's "a few weeks" means exactly 2 weeks, while Dalinar's means 4.

 

EDIT: I had the numbers wrong initially, thought this was more definitive. Edited to correct myself.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Rybal]

First, as has been mentioned several times in this thread, Dalinar absolutely did not need to apologize to Kaladin. He went much further in investigating one of his best friends than anyone would expect or believe possible, especially on the word of one of the "lesser" class. Regardless of the determination of that investigation (which any reasonable, unbiased individual would agree with), Dalinar still treated Kaladin with a great deal of respect. I believe that he didn't tell Kaladin the results of the investigation BECAUSE it turned up negative and he didn't want to cause additional damage to Kaladin's psyche. Acting like it hadn't happened was a measure of trust.

 

Regardless of whether Shallan actually said the words to apologize, she made one. She may not have even realized that she had done so. Her act of confiding her story in him was more of an apology and an acceptance of him than any apology could have been. During that time in the chasm, he even accepts her actions.

 

Elkohar's reaction and warning to Kaladin not to overstep his place has more to do with the epic chasm that is the difference between the social status of a king and a bodyguard, which is how he sees Kaladin. That difference is not related to the difference in eye color.

 

As for Amaram, technically, he did apologize. Considering that the denotation of "apology" involves giving an explanation or account vs. the connotation that we typically attribute to it, his was the strictest definition of the term. Amaram believed that his actions were the best for Roshar, regardless of whether they were "right".

 

Also, I notice that people talk about how awful Kaladin was to everyone else, but no one mentioned that they thought that HE should have been apologizing for his own actions. We cannot hold him to a lesser standard than we do the others. All in all, he was treated fairly well by lighteyes in this book, given the specific circumstances. In return, he hates them and is condescending towards them constantly (though several admittedly act the same way towards him).

 

One final note for Moogle - yes, Dalinar sent Roshone to Kaladin's town, but if you are going to blame Tien's death on him, then you need to be willing to go back further and blame Lirin for stealing the spheres in the first place, considering that that is what put the target on their back.

[Moogle]

First, as has been mentioned several times in this thread, Dalinar absolutely did not need to apologize to Kaladin. He went much further in investigating one of his best friends than anyone would expect or believe possible, especially on the word of one of the "lesser" class. Regardless of the determination of that investigation (which any reasonable, unbiased individual would agree with), Dalinar still treated Kaladin with a great deal of respect. I believe that he didn't tell Kaladin the results of the investigation BECAUSE it turned up negative and he didn't want to cause additional damage to Kaladin's psyche. Acting like it hadn't happened was a measure of trust.

 

He didn't act like it hadn't happened:

 

“I don’t know where you got this idea about Amaram,” Dalinar said, “but you have to stop. I checked into what you said, after you brought it to my attention the first time. Seventeen witnesses told me that Amaram won his Shardblade only four months ago, long after your ledger says you were made a slave.”

“Lies.”

“Seventeen men,” Dalinar repeated. “Lighteyed and dark, along with the word of a man I’ve known for decades. You’re wrong about him, soldier. You’re just plain wrong.”

 

How is he protecting Kaladin's psyche here?

 

 

One final note for Moogle - yes, Dalinar sent Roshone to Kaladin's town, but if you are going to blame Tien's death on him, then you need to be willing to go back further and blame Lirin for stealing the spheres in the first place, considering that that is what put the target on their back.

 

No, I think I can blame Dalinar for taking a man who he knows is willing to kill people for business opportunities and then foisting him on a small town, giving him an outlet for his anger (which he caused in the first place). Everything Roshone did to Kaladin's family happened because Dalinar wanted him out of the way, and of course because Roshone is a horrible person. If you'd like to discuss why you think Dalinar sending Roshone to Kaladin's town was acceptable, then perhaps we should start a new thread for that, though.

 

I can see your argument on Lirin, though it smacks of victim blaming. Dalinar is hardly absolved of any responsibility, however.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Moogle

[+eveorjoy]

I think much of the annoyance people have with the Lighteyes connects to the values of our culture and the belief that all men are created equal and should be equal before the law.

 

This is not Vorin culture. Vorin culture teaches that everyone has a place. The Almightly placed Lighteyes as leaders and that is the way of things. We disagree, but in judging these characters we need to look at them from the perceptive of their culture.

 

Kaladin originally believed in this ideal. His goal to reach the shattered plains was to be around "real" Lighteyes, just like Amaram. Amaram's betrayal destroyed his faith in all Lighteyes. His faith in this ideal is one of the things Kaladin is seeking in WoR while defending Dalinar. He wants one of the Lighteyes to live up to the Ideal. In the end I think he discovers the ideal was a misunderstanding of a distant memory of the Knights Radiant.It is interesting that the focus of this thread is Lighteyes apologizing to Kaladin. I don't think he ever wanted an apology. I think he wanted the Lighteyes to live up to what they were supposed to be. Further he admits in several places in the book that he isn't giving certain Lighteyed individuals enough credit. His anger makes sense and some of the characters (Dalinar, Adolin) even understand that. Nonetheless, justified anger can still destroy you and I doubt Amaram's apology settled things with him.

 

Still several of the characters have nothing to apologize for.

 

I'm not going to go into the reasons Dalinar doesn't need to apologize to Kaladin again. I discussed that in an earlier post. I will add this regarding Roshone. By the end of the book I think Kaladin believed Dalinar would have done more to deal with Roshone's actions if he asked him to. He told Moash that they could go to Dalinar and bring Roshone to justice. I don't think he was just saying that to save his and Elhokar's life. Kaladin doesn't say things he doesn't believe.

 

As for Shallan, she apologized for being offensive to Kaladin and that was more than enough. Shallan was mostly civil to Kaladin during the entire book. Okay she tricked him out of his boots (I love that scene) but as was mentioned that had nothing to do with him being Darkeyed. Then we have their second confrontation. She called him out on not referring to her as brightness, but she would have done the same to a Lighteyes of lower rank. She was playing a roll and that roll demanded respect. And in their first meeting Kaladin did call her Brightness and further admits that he is being offensive during their second meeting because he believes her to be a con-artist. Moving on to their third interaction at the training grounds, she acknowledges him when she doesn't need to and informs him that she has improved his boots and will be returning them to him soon. Later, Kaladin liked the improvements. Then we have the carriage ride. Kaladin interrupted Adolin and Shallan's conversation. Lighteyed or dark, he was being inappropriate. He was there as a bodyguard not a friend. And yet did Adolin or Shallan correct him? No, they included him in the conversation like an equal. They continued to treat him with friendly respect during the entire outing even though he was acting sour, and he admitted this in that scene too. Then we have their interactions on the plains. Yes, Shallan called him out for being unfairly mean to Adolin, when he was being unfairly mean. Adolin was treating Kaladin like a buddy at that point and even though Kaladin liked him he still was cruel. At last we have the chasms. Shallan and Kaladin were equally curt with each other, and yet she apologized. He never did, though he admitted he liked Adolin. Kaladin later realized he had more in common with this Lighteyed woman than he thought and was completely wrong about her.

 

I don't see what Shallan had to apologize for in any of these interactions.

 

As to Elhokar's sloppy apology. The fact that he apologized at all is shocking and hopeful. Elhokar is a king. Kings don't apologize in Vorin culture or even our culture. Further he recognized how capable Kaladin was to the point of humbling himself to ask for guidance. I think Elhokar does have the potential to be a good leader (a good king is stretch but there are eight books left where he could come around). He just needs to recognize his flaws and take direction from those he can see are successful. He can do this. He recognized it in Kaladin after all and doing so is going against Vorin culture, because Kaladin is Darkeyed. That's remarkable. So I'm willing to cut Elhokar some slack.

 

As for Amaram....

 

He apologized and I think he meant it. He still needs to die. He is far more dangerous than Sadeas. At least the way he apologized broke his false reputation. Yes, only the bridgemen were focused on in that scene, but I think Roion and his men also heard Amaram's admission. it's not enough, but it did hurt Amaram.

 

For Lighteyes to become humble and realize where they went wrong they need guidance. Hopefully the new Radiance will give them that guidance.

Edited April 2, 2014 by eveorjoy

[Rybal]

How is he protecting Kaladin's psyche here?

No, I think I can blame Dalinar for taking a man who he knows is willing to kill people for business opportunities and then foisting him on a small town, giving him an outlet for his anger (which he caused in the first place). Everything Roshone did to Kaladin's family happened because Dalinar wanted him out of the way, and of course because Roshone is a horrible person. If you'd like to discuss why you think Dalinar sending Roshone to Kaladin's town was acceptable, then perhaps we should start a new thread for that, though.

 

I can see your argument on Lirin, though it smacks of victim blaming. Dalinar is hardly absolved of any responsibility, however.

 

To your first point, he didn't mention the results of his investigation to Kaladin until after Kaladin decided to act on his own. To any reasonable person, 17 witnesses all saying the same thing is more than enough evidence. Granted, Amaram would have been their boss, so their statements could be considered to have been given under duress, but that doesn't change anything.

 

As for Roshone, Dalinar wanted him stripped of authority and exiled, but was overruled. GAVILAR agreed with the assessment that Roshone should be sent away, but retain a measure of authority. Dalinar would not have overruled his brother.

 

I get what you are saying with the thought of blaming the victim, but I was saying that others had just as much reason to be blamed for Tien's death as Roshone. I don't blame Moash's grandparents for what happened to them, for instance, because they were punished solely for doing well. Lirin, on the other hand, stole from the brightlord.

 

Does Roshone deserve blame for Tien's death? Some.

Lirin? Some.

Amaram? Some.

Sadeas? Some.

Tien's squadleader? Most of it.

 

The main point that I was trying to make was that, if you are going to go back to that point to say that it was his fault that Tien died, then you could just as effectively go back one step further to the cause of that hatred. Lirin may have been a victim, but he was in no way innocent.

[Aleksiel]

Didn't Roshone saw Tien send to the army to die because Lirin couldn't save his son and not because he stole the spheres?

[Rybal]

Didn't Roshone saw Tien send to the army to die because Lirin couldn't save his son and not because he stole the spheres?

 

The anger was magnified by that incident, but it was started because of the spheres. Then again, Roshone seemed negatively inclined towards Lirin from his very arrival in the town.

 

It is also possible that the spheres weren't even the real issue and that Roshone was more upset over the fact that a darkeyes had the gall to stand up to him and not bow before his wishes (which probably reminded him of Moash's grandparents, now that I think of it).

[Moogle]

As for Roshone, Dalinar wanted him stripped of authority and exiled, but was overruled. GAVILAR agreed with the assessment that Roshone should be sent away, but retain a measure of authority. Dalinar would not have overruled his brother.

 

Did I miss something?

 

 

“Well, sir,” Kaladin said, controlling his emotions with difficulty, “I find it . . . troubling that a man like this Roshone could be responsible for the deaths of innocent people, yet escape prison.”

“It was complicated, soldier. Roshone was one of Highprince Sadeas’s sworn liegemen, cousin to important men whose support we needed. I originally argued that Roshone should be stripped of station and made a tenner, forced to live his life in squalor. But this would have alienated allies, and could have undermined the kingdom. Elhokar argued for leniency toward Roshone, and his father agreed via spanreed. I relented, figuring that mercy was not an attribute I should discourage in Elhokar.”

 

Dalinar came around in the end, thinking it was 'mercy' for Roshone to be sent away without being stripped of his rank. I don't think the blame can be placed entirely at Gavilar's feet here. Dalinar could easily have continued arguing; he just didn't care enough, and wanted to encourage Elhokar to be merciful... to the person who just manipulated him. (???)

 

I do not believe Dalinar was overruled. He had considerable influence at the time. He may have been reluctant to go against his brother's wishes, but when people's lives are at stake, I have no sympathy for him. Letting your desire to be subservient to your brother kill people is not an admirable trait in my mind.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Moogle

[BrindIf]

About Dalinar.

 

Kaladin just save his sons' lives. And not because it was his job, as a bodyguard he could have let them deal with the duel trap without anyone reproaching him I think. And he did it in quite a spectacular way, especially for a darkeyes. I do not think difference of classes should still rules his relation with Dalinar.

Ok, he then just messed up, speaking out of his rank. And thus went in prison, by obedience toward Dalinar and military hierarchy.

 

I personally would have expected a bit more from Dalinar. Like visiting him more often, or sooner. Like not just telling him he's not believed but asking more details about what Amaram did, showing him he's respected.

 

Adolin has a far more nicer reaction, going to jail too, giving Shards.

I'm not sure why Dalinar keeps his distance.

 

We know from book 1 that Dalinar is the secret kind, mumbling for days about questions and pounding his choices without speaking them out, so that's what may have happened. I mean, he's in a fairly bad situation, either his best friend he just named Radiant is a liar, a thief and a murderer, either the Capitain of his bodyguards (and of the king's) is a delusionned... Either situation is very bad for him, and there seems to be no direct way to find out the truth.

So I understand his attitude, and I guess it makes sense from his point of view... but it's still really unfair on Kaladin, and I'm not surprised he get so upset.

[+eveorjoy]

About Dalinar.

 

Kaladin just save his sons' lives. And not because it was his job, as a bodyguard he could have let them deal with the duel trap without anyone reproaching him I think. And he did it in quite a spectacular way, especially for a darkeyes. I do not think difference of classes should still rules his relation with Dalinar.

Ok, he then just messed up, speaking out of his rank. And thus went in prison, by obedience toward Dalinar and military hierarchy.

 

I personally would have expected a bit more from Dalinar. Like visiting him more often, or sooner. Like not just telling him he's not believed but asking more details about what Amaram did, showing him he's respected.

 

Adolin has a far more nicer reaction, going to jail too, giving Shards.

I'm not sure why Dalinar keeps his distance.

 

We know from book 1 that Dalinar is the secret kind, mumbling for days about questions and pounding his choices without speaking them out, so that's what may have happened. I mean, he's in a fairly bad situation, either his best friend he just named Radiant is a liar, a thief and a murderer, either the Capitain of his bodyguards (and of the king's) is a delusionned... Either situation is very bad for him, and there seems to be no direct way to find out the truth.

So I understand his attitude, and I guess it makes sense from his point of view... but it's still really unfair on Kaladin, and I'm not surprised he get so upset.

 

Actually, Dalinar would agree. I think he didn't visit Kaladin sooner because he was bonding the blade. However, he told him while in prison that he understood why Kaladin did what he did and may have done the same if he were in Kaladin's position. Elhokar is still king and the choice was still his. What Kaladin did was punishable by death. By Alethi standards Kaladin got off easy. Psychologically it was hard for Kaladin, but all and all he wasn't treated badly.

 

Also I'm confused as to why people don't think Dalinar asked for more information from Kaladin when he start his investigation. He did ask.Kaladin for more information.

 

“Do you have any proof?” Dalinar asked. “You understand that I can’t take one man’s word on something of this nature.” “One darkeyed man’s word, you mean,” Kaladin said, gritting his teeth

“It’s not the color of your eyes that is the problem,” Dalinar said, “but the severity of your accusation. The words you speak are dangerous. Do you have any proof, soldier?”

“There were others there when he took the Shards. Men of his personal guard did the actual killing at his command. And there was a stormwarden there. Middle-aged, with a peaked face. He wore a beard like an ardent.” He paused. “They were all complicit in the act, but maybe . . .”

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 293). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

Should Dalinar have hounded Kaladin for every little detail of what happened? I think if Dalinar had pressed Kaladin for more information, Kaladin would have felt he was doubting his story all the more. Yes, Dalinar most likely did doubt Kaladin at this point, but can you blame him? Amaram isn't just well known for his spotless reputation, he has been a dear friend to Dalinar for years. Yes, Kaladin saved his life but he has barely known this trouble youth for about a month. If someone I just met told me my sister had committed murder, I'm going to call them an outright liar. Dalinar didn't call Kaladin a liar. He listened and respected his word, even though at the time I doubt he believed Kaladin. 

[Chrono]

  I think there's an argument to be made that Dalinar owes Kaladin an apology for this, as well as for the part where he started yelling at Kaladin after Kaladin saved his son. 

 

Kaladin had just botched a political maneuver that had taken months of effort and dueling on Adolin's part to orchestrate. Knowing ahead of time what the maneuver was. Perhaps Dalinar could have kept his cool and explained the situation to him if Kaladin was unaware, but Kaladin knew. Having someone you know and trust in front of almost everyone you know and respect completely butcher your plan like that knowingly tends to make people angry. Yes, Kaladin saved his son. And Dalinar takes that into heavy consideration when he's dealing with Amaram. But in the moment, just after Dalinar has practically gotten down on his knees and begged to Elhokar to spare Kaladin's life, Kaladin talked back, and rather rudely at that. He basically sassed his boss just after he'd saved his life. I'd start screaming at him too.

 

Now, Dalinar's not a saint. He's not, straight up. He's got a lot of learning to do, and he's made several mistakes throughout both books. He's growing. But I don't think he should be offering an apology to Kaladin for doubting him when he went above and beyond the line of duty to get Amaram convicted. Imagine one of your employees suddenly comes up to you and accuses your best friend, who you know beyond a shadow of a doubt to be an honorable and upstanding citizen, of homicide. If I was Dalinar, I wouldn't even investigate. He does, and he finds seventeen men to prove his best friend innocent. We don't know what Dalinar was thinking in that moment where he told Kaladin he was wrong, but it probably was not "This man is lying to get himself to look important." It was more like "He has serious emotional baggage, probably from war, and he maybe is just a little confused about where it came from."

 

But then, Kaladin saves Adolin and Renarin. So once again, Dalinar has to come back to a case that he closed. A case that he closed because he doesn't want another trusted friend to be a murderer. He's already had this happen to him with Sadeas; he probably doesn't want it to ever happen again. But he investigates anyway, and sets up a rather convoluted way of doing it, which takes a lot of work and actively lying to his best friend. And then, it turns out to be right. In either case, Kaladin should be thanking Dalinar, not the other way around. I know that if I had just convicted my own best friend of murder to help out a familiar but otherwise distant employee and he expected an apology, I'd be insulted. 

 

The situation wasn't perfect, but neither are Dalinar and Kaladin. The fact is, Dalinar chose to investigate further when he didn't have to and he certainly didn't want to. That's what Kaladin is thanking him for.

[Moogle]

But then, Kaladin saves Adolin and Renarin. So once again, Dalinar has to come back to a case that he closed. A case that he closed because he doesn't want another trusted friend to be a murderer. He's already had this happen to him with Sadeas; he probably doesn't want it to ever happen again. But he investigates anyway, and sets up a rather convoluted way of doing it, which takes a lot of work and actively lying to his best friend. And then, it turns out to be right. In either case, Kaladin should be thanking Dalinar, not the other way around. I know that if I had just convicted my own best friend of murder to help out a familiar but otherwise distant employee and he expected an apology, I'd be insulted. 

 

The issue is not that Dalinar told Kaladin he didn't believe him. That's understandable. The issue is that Dalinar told Kaladin that and then investigated anyway without telling Kaladin, causing him unneeded pain. Here's a reasonable conversation Dalinar could have had with Kaladin:

"I don't believe you, and my preliminary investigation shows there are seventeen witnesses that corroborate Amaram's story. But because you saved my sons, I'm going to look into it more. If you're right, my plan will probably show it. For now, have patience, and stop storming accusing Amaram of these things in public."

"Okay, that's fair."

 

This wasn't what happened. Dalinar instead came forward and starting claiming Kaladin was plain out wrong, told him to stop talking about what Amaram did, and didn't even bother mentioning he had an overly convoluted plan to unmask Amaram in place. I cannot for the life of me understand why Dalinar would do that except as some sort of way to spite Kaladin.

 

Kaladin had just botched a political maneuver that had taken months of effort and dueling on Adolin's part to orchestrate. Knowing ahead of time what the maneuver was. 

 

That's fair. Kaladin messed up.

 

 

But in the moment, just after Dalinar has practically gotten down on his knees and begged to Elhokar to spare Kaladin's life, Kaladin talked back, and rather rudely at that. He basically sassed his boss just after he'd saved his life. I'd start screaming at him too.

 

"Practically got down on his knees"? Here's the exchange (spoilered for brevity):

“This is what you get, Uncle,” Elhokar said, “for putting a slave in charge of our guard. Storms! What were you thinking? What was I thinking in allowing you?”

“You saw him fight, Elhokar,” Dalinar said softly. “He is good.”

“It’s not his skill but his discipline that is the problem!” The king folded his arms. “Execution.” Kaladin looked up sharply.

“Don’t be ridiculous,” Dalinar said, stepping up beside Kaladin’s chair.

“It is the punishment for slandering a highlord,” Elhokar said. “It is the law.” “You can pardon any crime, as king,” Dalinar said. “Don’t tell me you honestly want to see this man hanged after what he did today.”

“Would you stop me?” Elhokar said.

“I wouldn’t stand for it, that’s certain.” Elhokar crossed the room, stepping right up to Dalinar. For a moment, Kaladin seemed forgotten.

“Am I king?” Elhokar asked.

“Of course you are.”

“You don’t act like it. You’re going to have to decide something, Uncle. I won’t continue letting you rule, making a puppet of me.”

“I’m not—”

“I say the boy is to be executed. What do you say of that?”

“I’d say that in attempting such a thing, you’d make an enemy of me, Elhokar.” Dalinar had grown tense. Just try to execute me . . . Kaladin thought. Just try. The two stared at each other for a long moment. Finally, Elhokar turned away.

“Prison.”

“How long?” Dalinar said.

“Until I say he’s done!” the king said, waving a hand and stalking toward the exit. He stopped there, looking at Dalinar, a challenge in his eyes.

“Very well,” Dalinar said.

 

Dalinar was hardly on his hands and knees. He's obviously in control of the throne here. He didn't beg Elhokar for anything.

 

Kaladin basically sassed his boss after just about being executed by a childish king. I think I'd be a bit sassy in that situation, too. Dalinar is understandably angry at Kaladin, too. Both characters act understandably here. The part that is not understandable is Dalinar not telling Kaladin he's investigating Amaram.

[Chrono]

Okay, you got me on the "hands and knees begging" part. I didn't look up the chapter until after I posted. I apologize for bringing erroneous information into the discussion.

 

Now that I understand what your argument is, I have a main point to make. You say that it's unfair that Dalinar didn't tell Kaladin about his plan. I admit to Kaladin, that is unfair. However, Dalinar has seen evidence that Kaladin becomes unpredictable when around Amaram. It's the entire reason why he's in prison in the first place. Who is to say that Kaladin won't go off again or otherwise foul up the plan if Dalinar told him? Kaladin has already come close to killing him. The truth is, he's extremely unstable when it comes to Amaram. If anything, he's being kept out of the loop for his own safety. 

 

Dalinar has also been shown to play things close to the chest. He told no one of his plan except Navani and maybe a few trusted generals. He obviously respects Kaladin and acknowledges his pain, but he can't have this plan screw up. If people find out that he is trying to expose Amaram, it looks very suspiciously like a conspiracy to discredit him and get him falsely executed. The fact that Amaram is allied under Sadeas's banner only makes it worse: now he's undermining political opponents. He can't have that kind of bad publicity, not when he's trying to unite Alethkar. If Dalinar gets a scandal on his hands this late in the game, he's finished politically. If Kaladin was informed, he could be a detriment to the plan and expose it through no fault of his own.

 

In short, it comes down to Dalinar wanting to do this by himself and thinking of his political career. He certainly respects Kaladin and he says as much to him in his second visit. It's just that Kaladin has proved himself to be a liability when it comes to Amaram. He can't have this sort of thing blow up in his face.

[kaellok]

@Moogle: After re-reading the exchange, what Dalinar did was far more than getting on hands and knees to beg: Dalinar actively threatens to refuse the king's order, publicly if needed, and to act against the king.  He was willing to do the very thing he spent most of the first book fighting against, as well as large parts of the second!  

 

As far as Dalinar causing Kaladin unnecessary pain and anguish by not giving him the specifics of his investigation plan, Dalinar just saw what happened the last time he did that!  Kaladin's anger and hate against lighteyes (while justified) makes him a liability in any delicate work against lighteyes--even when the 'delicacy' is fighting a bloody duel.  If Dalinar had told Kaladin about the long-term sting plan he had going on against Amaram, then I would have found it incredible for Kaladin to not find some way to screw it up; his hate and anger against the lighteyes and Amaram was just too great for him to sit back and do nothing if he knew something was going on.  I find it almost unbelievable that Kaladin wasn't doing something on his own as it is.

 

The more time I spend on this subject, the more convinced I become that Dalinar has done almost nothing to warrant the demand of an apology to Kaladin--and if he does, then Kaladin is equally on the hook for an equally heart-felt apology.  They have both been acting in ways that are logical and rational from their own experiences, and they are each doing the best that they can to help the other--even when they have cause to let them fail or die.  Maybe they owe each other the words, but as I've said before, the actions they have taken speak so very, very much louder to me.

[BrindIf]

By the way, I'm not arguing Dalinar should have apologized.

I just don't think his attitude was totally correct.

 

In prison, he told Kaladin: "If you truly believe what you told me about Amaram..."

I find this insulting.

First, he's implying Kaladin could make such accusations without believing them, second, he's stating that even if Kaladin is genuine, he's disillusioned.

Ok, in the same time he's inquiring more. I supposed not so much by gratitude than because Kaladin showed in the arena he was perfectly able to fight a Shardbearer, and thus made his claims a lot more credible.

As I wrote before, I understand his attitude, he has a hard choice to make, and we saw in tWoK that he's the kind to take time by himself. And as Chrono stated, the way he's inquiring is too delicate to let anyone messing it. In the same time, I don't think his attitude is respectful of Kaladin.

[Moogle]

Now that I understand what your argument is, I have a main point to make. You say that it's unfair that Dalinar didn't tell Kaladin about his plan. I admit to Kaladin, that is unfair. However, Dalinar has seen evidence that Kaladin becomes unpredictable when around Amaram. It's the entire reason why he's in prison in the first place. Who is to say that Kaladin won't go off again or otherwise foul up the plan if Dalinar told him? Kaladin has already come close to killing him. The truth is, he's extremely unstable when it comes to Amaram. If anything, he's being kept out of the loop for his own safety.

 

You state your argument well, but I'm afraid I disagree here. There is no danger if Kaladin is just told that Amaram is being investigated. Kaladin did nothing crazy the last time when Dalinar told him that. I'm not asking that Dalinar bring Kaladin in on his plans, I'm just asking for him to tell Kaladin he's investigating him. Dalinar left Kaladin with the impression that he thought Kaladin was completely wrong and that Dalinar was refusing to investigate a murderer. I find this to be a poor move on his part, as it is a move designed to bring anguish to Kaladin for no particularly meaningful benefit that I can see.

[kaellok]

You state your argument well, but I'm afraid I disagree here. There is no danger if Kaladin is just told that Amaram is being investigated. Kaladin did nothing crazy the last time when Dalinar told him that. I'm not asking that Dalinar bring Kaladin in on his plans, I'm just asking for him to tell Kaladin he's investigating him. Dalinar left Kaladin with the impression that he thought Kaladin was completely wrong and that Dalinar was refusing to investigate a murderer. I find this to be a poor move on his part, as it is a move designed to bring anguish to Kaladin for no particularly meaningful benefit that I can see.

 

First, I keep responding to you because it's clear you have your position, and are defending it intelligently; I've also read a large number of your other, unrelated posts over the past few days, and find them to be equally intelligent and/or insightful.  I just disagree with you completely on this issue 

 

Second, I doubt that Dalinar deliberately withholding the information of a second investigation is intended to bring Kaladin anguish.  If anything, it's designed to prevent Dalinar from feeling anguish of going to such lengths to investigate the one Brightlord still alive that he calls friend.  To acknowledge what he is doing to someone else, especially the accuser, would be to legitimize the possibility that Amaram is a terrible person and make Dalinar have to deal with that.  It's behavior that would be more in-character for Shallan, but still didn't read false to me to come from Dalinar.

 

The danger of letting Kaladin know that Dalinar is conducting a second, more sneaky investigation is that the reason for it is the emotionally-charged way that Kaladin completely wrecked the plan to eliminate Sadeas--the man that most agreed was the most dangerous threat to Alethkar, the king, and Dalinar.  If a child throws a tantrum because you won't buy them a brand new bicycle, so you send them to their room, and then you buy the bike anyway--that's a very bad message to be sending.  (A flawed analogy, of course, but the principle is the same--don't let an irrational person know you are changing your behavior because of their irrational behavior or else they will always be irrational in order to get their way).

 

I do firmly believe that Dalinar initiated the sting swaparoo investigation after Kaladin's actions in the arena; I can't remember now where everyone else is on that issue, so if you think it started at the same time as the initial one, where Dalinar has 17 witnesses saying the same basic story, then that would explain why we feel so very differently about the incident--at that point, I would absolutely agree with this causing unnecessary pain and angst to Kaladin, especially since Dalinar specifically says that the issue is closed.

[Aleksiel]

Is everyone assuming Dalinar has made the plan for Amaram's exposure when he talked to Kaladin? If that isn't the case, then he wasn't investigating further at that point, so he told Kaladin the truth, but had a change of heart later and continued. My understanding of the timeline is Dalinar started bonding the Shardblade after his visit, so it's possible he didn't plan on it when his conversation with Kaladin happened.

 

I get from an outside perspective (forgot the right phrase here, sorry) that Brandon was just setting a plot twist here and that required some misunderstanding and lack of communication, but I think an in-book explanation was much needed, to have Dalinar tell Kaladin why he kept it secret or something of the sort.

[Crysanja]

Dont think Dalinar could have saved Kaladin again, if he "slandered" Amram again after beeing released, so this could have been a warning