Lighteyes suck at apologising... (some spoilers)

[ChocolateRob]

Is it just me or do Lighteyes have no idea what a real apology actually involves?

I was thinking of Dalinar and Shallan when I came up with this but Elhokar and Amaram both provided an interesting counterpoint to them as I thought more on it. So I guess you can call this a thread about the philosophy of apologies instead of just Lighteyes as the title suggests but it does contain WOR spoilers so here it should live. (PS there are a few Wheel of Time spoilers at the end too.)

 

It started when I connected Shallan and Dalinar’s apologies to Kaladin together. First off Shallan claims to have apologised to Kaladin, when by my reading she didn’t really, then later Dalinar states “I believe an apology is due” but does not really deliver one himself. At first I thought he was referring to the apology that he himself owed to Kaladin but he apparently just meant that Amaram should deliver a simple ‘Sorry I murdered your men, mutilated your face and made you a slave’ (which admittedly he then did.)

 

Shallan’s apology was pretty lacking by my standards. Kaladin (rightfully) called her out on the way she stole his boots then sighed and told her he was not holding a grudge over it and that she was not as bad as others. -

  “Not as bad as the others? What a delightful compliment. Well, let’s say you’re right. Perhaps I am an insensitive rich woman. That doesn’t change the fact that you can be downright mean and offensive, Kaladin Stormblessed”

It was her next line that confused me -

  “I apologize, and all I get in return is a shrug?”

I had to reread it looking for the apology, maybe it’s just me but as apologies go that was… not one. (his was closer)

 

Dalinar was better in that his actions spoke of apology but he really should have said the words (Words are important on Roshar). He needed to acknowledge out loud that he more or less dismissed what he did not want to hear and that he was wrong to do so. Doing things correctly eventually is not an apology, admitting fault to yourself and those wronged is.

 Initially I was simply amused that he said an apology was due then failed to actually deliver one. Combined with Shallan’s failure I thought of this thread but we can look a bit further into it by using Amaram and Elhokar.

 

Amaram. Now he did apologise, in the strictest sense of the word, the only problem was the sincerity of it. He was caught out in one direct lie and had to admit the truth, he apologised with all formality and admitted that he was sorry for what he did. The only problem being that his sorrow was in no way proportional to his sin, he may actually regret that innocent men were killed but he admits that this was not as important to him as gaining Shards ‘for the greater good’ and that he would do it again in a heartbeat.

It is the forced apology that a child gives when caught out and made to apologise, an insincere formality. In his later viewpoint he makes it clear that his only real regret was not killing Kaladin too.

(I think that once Amaram had confessed what he had done before witnesses Dalinar should have demanded he immediately surrender his Plate and Blade. What else could Amaram have done? It would have gone a long way towards Dalinar's apology)

 

Elhokar is the only one who makes a real job of it, though he does not say the words ‘I’m sorry’ he does say what matters. He admits that he was wrong and he admits why he did it, he does this both to himself and to the person that he wronged. He humbles himself, he explains his hopes and his (many) faults and even asks for help in doing what is right. Of course he is drunk, in vino veritas as they say. A bewildered Kaladin shoots him down but he is still determined to figure how to do things better. You could also argue that there is strength in not saying ‘I’m sorry’ because when you formalise an apology too much you run the risk of doing it simply to clear your own conscience by getting forgiveness.

 

 

The Wheel of Time is also good for looking at apologies specifically Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene’s apologies to Mat.

Let’s be honest, they each owed him big time for both rescuing them and for their treatment of him afterwards.

Elayne and Nynaeve both get called out on their behaviour by Birgitte and Aviendha and made to apologise but as with Amaram above these apologies are completely insincere and only done with extreme reluctance. Elayne only regrets that she has somehow disappointed Aviendha and Nynaeve is… Nynaeve. Neither truly regrets their actions and their apologies are simply expected formality.

It is only later that they work out Mat’s value as a person (and a friend) and they both make it up to him, Elayne in the way she treats him when they meet up again in Andor and Nynaeve in defending him when Tuon insults him (specifically mentioning the rescue). Both girls made a reluctant apology then backed it up later with actions, justifying their growth.

Egwene on the other hand never apologises for any of her actions, she doesn’t learn to be a better person she learns to be an Aes Sedai. Perhaps if she had made friends willing to call her out more often (she sadly lost Aviendha to Elayne in that regard) she would not have been the only main character to… well, you know.., karma for not growing. (um, that is that she wouldn’t have… not that others would too).

 

Thoughts?

Edited March 31, 2014 by ChocolateRob

[Patrick Star]

I agree 100% with everything in this post.

 

Shallan's was the most infuriating for me:

 

"Hey Kaladin, you were forced to act as bait for the Parshendi and run into a bloodbath every day or two, were strung up in a highstorm for surviving, forced to practically live in damnation for an entire year, and watch hundreds of your friends get killed like flies, all because you were enslaved by a corrupt lighteyes.  After this, you passed up the opportunity to escape in order to rescue a brightlord that Sadeas had allied with, and actually succeeded in the rescue.  You finally got your freedom, but chose to protect said brightlord in order to ensure that your men would retain their freedom.  You fought 4 shardbearers in order to save my fiance even though he acted like a complete jerk to you, and put up a better fight than any normal human should have been able to - and were thrown in jail because of it.  Plus, I stole your boots.  However, there is no reason for you to be so hostile towards us lighteyes.  You are just plain spiteful!"
 

Dalinar's was also a head-banger:

 

"Hey Kaladin, surviving the highstorm and the bridgecrew was impressive, and rescuing me should not have been possible. You drove off the assassin in white and survived a 100-foot drop, and were able to recognize his presence and evacuate the palace before he attacked.  But there's absolutely no way that you can be telling the truth about Amaram.  He's obviously a much better man for me to crown head of the Knights Radiant.  But I still demand absolute loyalty of you, even though I'm betraying you like the other lighteyes."  and then after the chasms: "Amaram, apologize for what you did!" Really, Dalinar, really?

 

Elhokar definitely had the best apology:

 

"You're special, Kaladin.  I stopped seeing those twisted symbols as soon as you came.  As Dalinar said, you fought off the Assassin in White.  You've done the impossible more times than I have been able to do the possible.  You're a hero.  You've done things that no man should have been able to do, and I demanded you to be executed for them.  That was so, so stupid of me.  I did the completely wrong thing, and I know it. I completely ruined what should have been a glorious opportunity for you."

 

Also, Adolin's u-turn after the duel was about as good an apology as he could have given.

[Numb]

I think it's just a problem with their society. Remember they are basically told from birth that their whole life is about fighting and to best serve their God they must become the best fighters so they can fight when they die. It's a society that revolves around conflict and never backing down. I can imagine people in that society being really terrible at admitting mistakes to another. Not only is everyone your enemy but it's also a sign of weakness.

[Seloun]

It's worth noting that those are all examples of Lighteyes apologizing to dark-eyed Kaladin. Contrast with the following scene:

 

 

Navani studied her, then finally sighed. “I have been ignoring things,” the older woman said, “that I should not. Because they bring me pain.”

 

“I am sorry.”

 

“You have nothing to apologize for.” Navani held out her hand toward Shallan. “May I?”

 

...

 

“Damnation,” Navani said, flipping to the next page. “I shouldn’t have ignored you. It was petty.”

 

“It was the act of a grieving mother.”

 

“Scholars don’t have time for such nonsense.” Navani blinked, and Shallan caught a tear in the woman’s eye.

 

Jasnah also discusses apologizing in TWoK.

 

Despite the lesson of WoR being 'don't be prejudiced against lighteyes', Kaladin really does have a point about how lighteyes treat darkeyes, even the 'good' lighteyes. In particular, lighteyes tend to treat Kaladin as furniture:

 

 

“You need to disarm them,” Kaladin found himself saying.

 

All eyes in the room turned toward him. Brightness Teshav gave him a frown, as if speaking were not Kaladin’s right. It probably wasn’t.

 

“You think you can get him to secede?” the king asked.

 

“Is that possible?” Kaladin asked, surprised.

 

The lighteyes turned to him. Navani blinked, as if noticing him for the first time.

 

“A what of might and renown?” Kaladin asked.

 

Both looked at him, as if surprised to hear him speak. Keep forgetting I’m here, do you? Kaladin thought. You prefer to ignore darkeyes.

 

So I'm not really sure the issue is about apologies specifically, but rather the difference in social status. Shallan apologizes for Navani's mistake. Even then, Navani's 'apology' to Shallan is a lot more heart-felt than any that Kaladin gets. The whole 'don't be prejudiced against lighteyes' thing becomes somewhat of a Broken Aesop given that Kaladin really has a good point about how lighteyes generally treat darkeyes.

 

Dalinar does say that:

 

 

“Maybe it shouldn’t, but it does. You want to change that? Well, you’re not going to do it by screaming like a lunatic and challenging men like Amaram to duels. You’ll do it by distinguishing yourself in the position I gave you. Be the kind of man that others admire, whether they be lighteyed or dark. Convince Elhokar that a darkeyes can lead. That will change the world.”

 

and Elhokar's apology appears to be a step along that path, though how that'll progress given that everyone will think Kaladin was always 'really' a lighteyes is questionable. Still, it seems like a step in the right direction; keep in mind that book 2 is only about two months in terms of time.

 

tl;dr - it seems like the apology issue is really more indicative of the more fundamental lighteyes/darkeyes issue, and even the protagonist lighteyes are susceptible to it; Elhokar's apology (with Dalinar's speech) seems to indicate that progress is being made on that front, though.

[Haradion Drogon]

I must admit, when reading WOR, I was becoming increasingly annoyed the with the Light-Eyes.

Kaladin's own predjudice against Lighteyes was disheartening to see - since he had experienced so much himself, but at the same time, was justified.

 

I just wanted to bang the character's heads together.

 

"YOU HAVE MUCH BIGGER PROBLEMS PEOPLE!"

 

:Sigh:

 

Still. I can't wait to see how this will progress as the series goes on. I suspect the Radiant's - i.e. Kaladin, Dalinar and Shallan, will become closer as they try to understand their powers, and the social barriers will start to degenerate as time goes by. I think there will be some more friction when Kaladin returns to his home - now a lighteye, but I think it will be interesting to watch the groups mingle and change as the apocalypse nears...

[Kurkistan]

On the matter of how everyone kept being surprised when Kaladin spoke up during planning sessions:

 

It was my interpretation while reading that they were rather justified in their surprise. Kaladin is, on the whole, very very bad at being a bodyguard, in the sense that he does not really behave in the "fade into the background and do your job professionally" fashion which we associate with the job.

 

The original head of Elhokar's guard (forgive me, I forget the name) was lighteyed and was not in the habit of speaking during the conversations of his employers. He was also shown in the books to maintain a consistent upright posture and unobtrusiveness which Kaladin "lean-on-wall-and-wander" never really mastered. Kaladin was not merely acting outside the expectations of a darkeye, but outside the expectations of his role as a bodyguard, perhaps quite inappropriately so. Dalinar even calls him out on it when Kaladin first tells him about Amaram.

 

On Dalinar's apology:

 

I honestly don't see Dalinar having anything to apologize for here. I don't fault him for how he responded to Kaladin's claims, and in fact find his response rather praiseworthy.

 

Not only did Dalinar not immediately dismiss/denounce Kaladin for slandering his close friend, but he also actually investigated the claim and even went so far as to orchestrate a rather complicated (and quite personally inconvenient, since he had to hide the Shardblade and pretend to be sick for a week) sting on Amaram. He acted above and beyond the call here, and needn't apologize for reacting reasonably to Kaladin's, let's admit, rather absurd claims.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Aleksiel]

I agree Shallan's idea of an apology was pretty ridiculous. For a second I thought was sarcastic when she claimed to have apologized. Jasnah did better job than her and that's something.

 

Elhokar really impressed me with what he told Kaladin. I hope he finally figures it out in the next book, he has potential for much character growth.

 

...

 

I'm not really convinced this is relevant. Kaladin was supposed to guard them, not give opinion and attitude. It's not about social status, but what's required of the person on the job and what isn't. A bodyguard is someone you are supposed to forget is there and not to randomly join your conversations.

[+eveorjoy]

On Dalinar's apology:

 

I honestly don't see Dalinar having anything to apologize for here. I don't fault him for how he responded to Kaladin's claims, and in fact find his response rather praiseworthy.

 

Not only did Dalinar not immediately dismiss/denounce Kaladin for slandering his close friend, but he also actually investigated the claim and even went so far as to orchestrate a rather complicated (and quite personally inconvenient, since he had to hide the Shardblade and pretend to be sick for a week) sting on Amaram. He acted above and beyond the call here, and needn't apologize for reacting reasonably to Kaladin's, let's admit, rather absurd claims.

 

I agree. Dalinar didn't have anything to apologize for. Besides these points, Dalinar also raised him to a position no other darkeyes had ever been in before. Allowed him to do things that socially darkeye should not be able to do, i.e. hold a shardblade, ride a horse. Trusted his judgement to the point that he listened to him in meetings about things that had nothing to do with his job and allowed him to arm a parshmen/ parshendi. He placed him over lighteyes who guarded the king (I doubt he was able to remove them all before Kaladin took the job).  He told Elhokar he would be his enemy if he killed Kaladin, something he had the legal right to do at the time. And he constantly checked on the well being of Kaladin and his men. 

 

No Dalinar wasn't perfect, but considering everything he bent over backwards for Kaladin. When he told him in private after Kaladin accidentally committed a crime punishable by death (a darkeyes defaming a lighteyes. Yes the Alethi system sucks) that seventeen men, lighteyed and dark, saw Amaram win his blade he was warning him. And even after that he still worked to test Amaram.

 

Yes, the rest of the lighteyes are awful at apologizing. Hopefully, now that Kaladin is one of them he can lead them to better behavior. 

Edited March 31, 2014 by eveorjoy

[Seloun]

I'm not really convinced this is relevant. Kaladin was supposed to guard them, not give opinion and attitude. It's not about social status, but what's required of the person on the job and what isn't. A bodyguard is someone you are supposed to forget is there and not to randomly join your conversations.

 

Kaladin is not just a bodyguard; he's in command of an entire battalion. As Dalinar says in TWoK:

 

 

“You have a point,” Dalinar said. “You realize, however, that in doing this I would essentially be giving you the same authority as a lighteyes of fourth dahn. You’d be in charge of a thousand former bridgemen. A full battalion.”

 

This is the same rank as Shallan's father (in principle, Kaladin should outrank Shallan as well, as she's only fifth dahn) and only one rank below Amaram. Dalinar officially only gives him the rank of Captain instead of Battalionlord (though it's unclear what Captain would be equivalent to) but the point is that Kaladin's job and responsibilities would make his rank, if lighteyed, equivalent to a Shardbearer.

[kaellok]

Kaladin is not just a bodyguard; he's in command of an entire battalion. As Dalinar says in TWoK:

 

 

This is the same rank as Shallan's father (in principle, Kaladin should outrank Shallan as well, as she's only fifth dahn) and only one rank below Amaram. Dalinar officially only gives him the rank of Captain instead of Battalionlord (though it's unclear what Captain would be equivalent to) but the point is that Kaladin's job and responsibilities would make his rank, if lighteyed, equivalent to a Shardbearer.

 

But the sole purpose for Kaladin to be in those meetings is as a bodyguard.  He's not there as a Captain, or a Battalionlord, or a Hero or Savior or Knight Radiant.  He's there to secure the area and keep the king alive if assassins attack.  If he had been (I forget his name; the Champion guy that Gavilar was entrusting his blade and plate to before he got assassinated), then they still would have likely been shocked for him to speak up about things of that nature.  It wasn't his expected role, or place, due to his position--the fact that he was a darkeyes undoubtedly played into it, as well, but it was hardly the only or even greatest reason.

 

Even given his rank, the meeting is between people that are, at a minimum, at least one order of magnitude greater than him (and probably closer to 3), militarily-speaking.  In the Army, it's rare for a Lt. Colonel (Battalion commander) to be meeting with Generals for a general strategy meeting.  His rank would not have been sufficient to grant him a position in the meeting. 

 

As some others mentioned, Dalinar didn't have anything to apologize for, I feel.  Then again, I feel that actions speak louder than words--Roshar is obviously different, as speaking the Ideals counts for far more than thinking them.  None of the actions he took, however, were cause to need to apologize, either.

 

And, finally, what Seloun said--lighteyes apologize to lighteyes just fine rather frequently.  It's the lighteyes-darkeyes cross (on both sides) that makes it abysmally poor.

[Aleksiel]

Kaladin is not just a bodyguard; he's in command of an entire battalion. As Dalinar says in TWoK:

 

 

This is the same rank as Shallan's father (in principle, Kaladin should outrank Shallan as well, as she's only fifth dahn) and only one rank below Amaram. Dalinar officially only gives him the rank of Captain instead of Battalionlord (though it's unclear what Captain would be equivalent to) but the point is that Kaladin's job and responsibilities would make his rank, if lighteyed, equivalent to a Shardbearer.

 

kaellok made some really good points regarding your post and I agree with all of them.

 

The meetings were closed to anyone but five people and Kaladin wasn't among them strictly speaking. Those meetings weren't opened to all above a certain social status, but closed and only for Dalinar's most trusted associates, which I suppose is why he wasn't against Kaladin speaking, but it was only natural for everyone else to give Kaladin nasty looks. He was invited to guard the meeting not attend it in the meaning of contributing to the strategy. Dalinar himself said it might be important fo Kaladin to hear what they were planning, not to be part of the discussion. Yet Dalinar listened to Kaladin and treated him with respect. 

 

Regardless, Kaladin was still darkeyes as even Dalinar felt the need to remind him at one point. Kaladin noticed in his early chapters how the woman who read the king's proclamation in the beginning of WoR outranked him. He might had a superior military status, but social was still below any lighteyes and he himself was wondering how that was supposed to work. 

 

Also, it was fully understandable for Shallan and Adolin to ignore him on their date and he shouldn't have taken it so personal. He wasn't their guest or friend; Kaladin was just way too sensitive at that point. 

[kaos]

Personally I think this stratification of society is pretty interesting and I hope Brandon continues to reference it and doesn't just let people... get away with it I guess. I think the biggest transgressor as far as being an chull for no reason is probably Shallan. I think it's a bunch of little things that show how she fundamentally doesn't view darkeyes on the same level as her and other lighteyes. I think the most glaring point of this is that she calls she calls Kaladin bridgeboy throughout the entire book, right through the end. Adolin does this too, but about halfway through he stops using it as an insult and starts using it as a term of endearment with Kaladin. Shallan meanwhile keeps this slightly patronizing tone the entire time (at least that's the impression I got). My biggest problem I think is that while Adolin recognizes that he is being unfair and just has some misplaced aggression he is taking out on the bridgemen Shallan seems to keep thinking she is being perfectly fair and balanced when she really isn't.  Kaladin was a bodyguard and he spoke out of turn a lot and was hostile and rust, but that doesn't excuse treating him less respect. I guess what pisses me off about the situation isn't that they were insulting him, but that they were insulting him in part because he was lower on the social ladder.

 

tl;dr Adolin and Shallan were both dicks to Kaladin and Kaladin was a dick to them back. However Adolin is more justified as his and Kaladin's mutual dickishness is more a personal problem which they sort of work out between them while Shallans dickishness stems from her looking down on Kaladin (maybe subconsciously), being the primary aggressor (the boots), and is never brought up by the narrative or remarked upon and is largely ignored.  

[Moogle]

Elhokar is the only one who makes a real job of it, though he does not say the words ‘I’m sorry’ he does say what matters. He admits that he was wrong and he admits why he did it, he does this both to himself and to the person that he wronged. He humbles himself, he explains his hopes and his (many) faults and even asks for help in doing what is right. Of course he is drunk, in vino veritas as they say. A bewildered Kaladin shoots him down but he is still determined to figure how to do things better. You could also argue that there is strength in not saying ‘I’m sorry’ because when you formalise an apology too much you run the risk of doing it simply to clear your own conscience by getting forgiveness.

 

I disagree here. Elhokar was drunk when he apologized, and I found his 'apology' to be somewhat insulting. The fact that he never apologized when sober is telling. He never asked for forgiveness, and showed no remorse, beyond saying "I am sorry for what I did to you". Before even starting his 'apology', he implies he's trying to manipulate Kaladin.

“Well, I did ask,” he muttered to himself. “I merely have to win you over as well. I will figure this out. I will be a king to be remembered.”

 

Well, what's the best way to win someone over that you've wronged? Perhaps apologizing to them.

 

There's also this bit:

“Or you could do what is best for Alethkar,” Kaladin said, “and step down.”

The king stopped in place. He turned on Kaladin, expression darkening. “Do not overstep yourself, bridgeman. Bah. I should never have come here.”

 

When you go to someone to apologize, reminding them that you're above them is probably the wrong to go about things. Apologizing tends to involve humbling yourself. Kaladin did overstep himself, I'll grant, though. Kaladin has issues with that sort of thing. I'd still argue that Elhokar should have sucked it up. He's in no position to be prickly with Kaladin during an apology.

 

Anyways, Elhokar does a small speech and walks out. Because that totally makes up for the fact that he tried to have Kaladin executed after Kaladin saved Adolin by going against four Shardbearers. It feels very unfair to me. Elhokar's never described as looking remorseful or pained or anything. I think there's a good chance Elhokar was just trying to act like an 'honorable' lighteyes with this apologizing here and get on Kaladin's good side, though it's also possible I'm just interpreting him in the worst possible light because he killed my Moashie's parents.

 

Still, maybe Elhokar will surprise me. I don't have high hopes, though.

 

I think the thread title is very apt: lighteyes have issues with apologizing, at least to darkeyes. The fact that Kaladin had to protect Elhokar left me feeling very conflicted with a bad taste in my mouth, as did the entire prison arc. I think Kaladin's hatred of lighteyes was very justified. I feel he got past it too quickly, though the needs of the story demanded it.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Moogle

[chikinllama]

I don't think Kaladin got over his hatred of light eyes. I think he just realized that killing someone he didn't like or stepping aside to let someone he didn't like get killed wasn't right.

Edit: kind of like how Peter Parker stepping aside to let the thief go free just because the guy he was stealing from swindled him.

Edited March 31, 2014 by chikinllama

[lDanielHolm]

He's definitely not past it, but he's going in that direction. Hopefully.

[Meerletalis]

I think it's just a problem with their society. Remember they are basically told from birth that their whole life is about fighting and to best serve their God they must become the best fighters so they can fight when they die. It's a society that revolves around conflict and never backing down. I can imagine people in that society being really terrible at admitting mistakes to another. Not only is everyone your enemy but it's also a sign of weakness.

Perhaps this means the most important words a man can say are, "I was wrong, and I apologize."

[ChocolateRob]

Perhaps this means the most important words a man can say are, "I was wrong, and I apologize."

 

Rats! I was building up to that.

 

 

I agree that it is Kaladin's job to be unobtrusive, the times where he speaks up are inappropriate whether he is Darkeyed or Light. Especially in the carriage with Shallan and Adolin, he certainly had no place interrupting their conversation/date anymore than a waiter should interrupt their dinner with inappropriate questions.

 

On Dalinar however it is clear that he, at first, pretty much dismissed what Kaladin told him and it is this that he owes him an apology for. He clearly did not investigate the claim any further than finding reason to dismiss it. Had he actually investigated it he would have asked Kaladin exactly how it happened, witnesses or not. Amaram would have learned that Dalinar had asked awkward questions and known the possible cause but he was caught completely flat footed when Kaladin accused him in the arena. Dalinar never even mentioned the results of his 'investigation' to Kaladin until he was forced to by events, clearly he tried to sweep it under the rug and forget about it. It is only once Kaladin shook things up by making a very public accusation against Amaram that he had doubts and made the effort to investigate it properly.

 

Throughout WoK & Wor we hear hints that random Darkeyes are taking an interest in the mysterious Stormblessed (soldiers being beaten for trying to see him after the highstorm, soldiers he saved showing him immediate respect). I thought it was to hint that his reputation was building in the camps so much that the Darkeyed population would react to his unjust imprisonment. Apparently however it was to allow the diagramists to identify him instead.

One of the only things any Darkeye can aspire to be is a hero who wins himself some Shards and become a very powerful Lighteyes. With such a hero appearing, being ignored for his accusation and imprisoned I was expecting such a reaction from the Darkeyes that the Lighteyes would realise what trouble they could be in if they did not appear to investigate properly. Beyond some of bridge four considering breaking him out there did not appear to be any reaction from the general populous.

 

Frankly Kaladin should have left and taken all the Darkeyes with him.

 

 (I apologise if this is starting to get off topic though)

[Kurkistan]

On Dalinar however it is clear that he, at first, pretty much dismissed what Kaladin told him and it is this that he owes him an apology for. He clearly did not investigate the claim any further than finding reason to dismiss it. Had he actually investigated it he would have asked Kaladin exactly how it happened, witnesses or not. Amaram would have learned that Dalinar had asked awkward questions and known the possible cause but he was caught completely flat footed when Kaladin accused him in the arena. Dalinar never even mentioned the results of his 'investigation' to Kaladin until he was forced to by events, clearly he tried to sweep it under the rug and forget about it. It is only once Kaladin shook things up by making a very public accusation against Amaram that he had doubts and made the effort to investigate it properly.

 

I'd like to note that the Taln interlude comes quite a ways before the battle in the arena and Kaladin's public accusation. Despite that, that interlude was the point where Dalinar began implementing his plan for a sting on Amaram. So no, it did not take Kaladin's actions/accusations to really get the ball rolling on the investigation. Dalinar was simply pursuing a fairly discrete method of inquiry, likely so as not to alienate/warn Amaram unnecessarily.

 

One of the only things any Darkeye can aspire to be is a hero who wins himself some Shards and become a very powerful Lighteyes. With such a hero appearing, being ignored for his accusation and imprisoned[/font] I was expecting such a reaction from the Darkeyes that the Lighteyes would realise what trouble they could be in if they did not appear to investigate properly. Beyond some of bridge four considering breaking him out there did not appear to be any reaction from the general populous.

 

As a point of fact, I don't think Kaladin actually ever got around to making that specific accusation against Amaram. He called him a murderer/thief, but did not specify that the stolen thing was Shards.

[Aleksiel]

I'd like to note that the Taln interlude comes quite a ways before the battle in the arena and Kaladin's public accusation. Despite that, that interlude was the point where Dalinar began implementing his plan for a sting on Amaram. So no, it did not take Kaladin's actions/accusations to really get the ball rolling on the investigation. Dalinar was simply pursuing a fairly discrete method of inquiry, likely so as not to alienate/warn Amaram unnecessarily.

 

There isn't a timeline on Taln's interlude. However, the week Dalinar spend pretending to be sick and actually bonding the Shardblade is during Kaladin's time in prison, because Navani used Dalinar's illness as an excuse to not meet Shallan (it's in hers and Adolin's spanreed exchange before Shallan went to see Taln for herself). Therefor I wouldn't say Dalinar has been obviously making a lot of efforts to discover the truth before the arena fight.

[ChocolateRob]

@Kurk

 

Dalinar had a madman and a Shardblade hidden away but the first step in starting a plot against Amaram would have to be bonding the blade, if the blade is not in place first the whole thing could fall apart. He only bonded the blade after Kaladin was arrested. It is likely that Dalinar only used the blade/nutcase as the trap because they were convenient, he only had them brought to him then hidden away because he did not know what to make of them yet.

 

You are right though that Kaladin did not mention Shards in his accusation. I read too much into it (which confused me later when Shallan did not realise that it was Kaladin that killed her brother, not mentioning the Shards hid that)

[Chrono]

Mainly my conclusion about this topic at the end of Words of Radiance: Lighteyes suck at apologizing. And the greatest examples of those are Elhokar and Shallan.

 

I think a lot of people tend to skim over the fact that Kaladin is asinine and offensive, according to lighteyed culture. Shallan is used to people calling her "Brightness" and opening doors for her. The fact that Kaladin doesn't do that, and instead condemns her entire race for something she didn't do is very insulting. It'd be like me going on a date, and instead of having my date be polite and courteous, he insults me the entire time. When I ask him why, he says "Because you're white." Ouch. 

 

Now, I'm not advocating that what Shallan did was right. She was mean and responded childishly and never apologized for it. It was petty. But coming from that viewpoint, it makes a little more sense. Obviously we're more sympathetic to Kaladin because we've been through his struggles with him. Shallan hasn't. While arguing, they have little to no idea what sort of mess they've been through. After Shallan describes the feeling of hopelessness, both she and Kaladin are surprisingly civil. 

 

As for Elhokar, I believe that mess has been adequately explained by Moogle. But I'd like to add in my two cents. Elhokar at least made the attempt to apologize. And that's got to count for something. True, he was a brat about it. True, he kind of waffled back and forth between begging for help and being condescending. But he at least made the effort. That's a step in the right direction. It's not enough, and I'm not impressed by that whole conversation, but at least he's trying.

[Kurkistan]

There isn't a timeline on Taln's interlude. However, the week Dalinar spend pretending to be sick and actually bonding the Shardblade is during Kaladin's time in prison, because Navani used Dalinar's illness as an excuse to not meet Shallan (it's in hers and Adolin's spanreed exchange before Shallan went to see Taln for herself). Therefor I wouldn't say Dalinar has been obviously making a lot of efforts to discover the truth before the arena fight.

I know the timelines for the interludes are a bit... floaty, but this is stretching it a bit. The Eshonai interludes were that night and the next morning respectively, while the Zahel interlude was also that night. The Taln interlude is smack-dab in the middle of all those.

 

So either that scene took place an entire book section later for reasons unknown (and really, the sting would have "flowed" more if the interlude took place between parts 2 and 3, so why not just place it there?) or Dalinar held off on bonding the Blade for a bit.

 

@Kurk

 

Dalinar had a madman and a Shardblade hidden away but the first step in starting a plot against Amaram would have to be bonding the blade, if the blade is not in place first the whole thing could fall apart. He only bonded the blade after Kaladin was arrested. It is likely that Dalinar only used the blade/nutcase as the trap because they were convenient, he only had them brought to him then hidden away because he did not know what to make of them yet.

To continue the "Dalinar was planning this all along! " argument:

 

I think it quite reasonable for Dalinar to hold off on bonding the Blade for a bit after the Taln interlude. Recall that, for any of this to work, he'd have to hide from the public eye for a week. Stuff was happening during the period between Szeth's attack and Kaladin being imprisoned. Dalinar couldn't afford to not be out there, being seen and doing stuff. In the period afterwards, though, he had a bit more freedom, since everything had already been set in motion.

 

Regardless, I'd like to further note that Dalinar seemed to be planning a sting on Amaram from the first moment he saw Taln:

 

“I am willing to consider anything, these days. Your Majesty, I suggest you send him to the ardents. Perhaps they can help his mind to recover.”

“What will you do with the Shardblade?”

“I’m certain we can find a good use for it. In fact, something occurs to me right now. I might have need of you, Bordin.”

 

Recall that Bordin is then the one who leads Amaram to Taln. So if Dalinar wasn't planning the sting before Kaladin was imprisoned, then it necessitates some weird timeline stuff with regards to the placement of the Taln interlude.

 

Aside: Also, I read how Elhokar referred to Wit in that interlude to indicate that he hadn't seen Wit for awhile, which would belie Wit running around at the warcamps during Part 3.

 

---

 

Another piece of evidence that could go either way depending on how you interpret it, but I found it so I'll bring it up: Dalinar tells Amaram (Ch 76) that "A few weeks ago" Bordin/Taln arrived at the warcamps. If this timeline is to be credited, there were 20 days (4 weeks on Roshar) between when Dalinar said that and Kaladin's imprisonment, and ~30 between when Taln would otherwise have arrived (if I'm right) and when Dalinar said it.

 

Either way "a few weeks" is accurate, but I suppose you could lean toward 4 being more reasonable than 6.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Crysanja]

i must say im kind of stunned, which values ppl expect in this book(maybe in fantasy/midieval times in general).

do you realy think that most ppl of high society would apologize and respect "normal" ppl - today in the real world?

 

there was a split society in amercia just 50 years ago - segregation.

there is still a caste system in India today, where ppl murder their children because of caste violations.(ok its outlawed but it still happens)

just look at many none western societies.

 

this is not a perfect world scenario =)

 

 

would you apologize to a very rude person?

Kaladin is a very rude person in WoR. he might be nice to his friends, but others? lighteyes?

hes even called out for it by several ppl.

 

a King does not apologize to a commoner. it would be odd the otherway around.

[Moogle]

I'd like to note that the Taln interlude comes quite a ways before the battle in the arena and Kaladin's public accusation. Despite that, that interlude was the point where Dalinar began implementing his plan for a sting on Amaram. So no, it did not take Kaladin's actions/accusations to really get the ball rolling on the investigation. Dalinar was simply pursuing a fairly discrete method of inquiry, likely so as not to alienate/warn Amaram unnecessarily.

 

In which case, I have to ask why he didn't bother telling Kaladin. The fact that Dalinar was investigating despite the words of 17 liars is not something that should have been made a surprise. He could have told Kaladin that he was still investigating, and a lot of angst could have been avoided. Instead, he told Kaladin the following:

“I don’t know where you got this idea about Amaram,” Dalinar said, “but you have to stop. I checked into what you said, after you brought it to my attention the first time. Seventeen witnesses told me that Amaram won his Shardblade only four months ago, long after your ledger says you were made a slave.”

“Lies.”

“Seventeen men,” Dalinar repeated. “Lighteyed and dark, along with the word of a man I’ve known for decades. You’re wrong about him, soldier. You’re just plain wrong.”

 

The situation was handled incredibly poorly by Dalinar if he was investigating since before the arena fight. He directly implies the matter is closed and Kaladin is wrong. It caused Kaladin unnecessary sorrow, and makes Dalinar partially responsible for Kaladin losing Syl. I think there's an argument to be made that Dalinar owes Kaladin an apology for this, as well as for the part where he started yelling at Kaladin after Kaladin saved his son. It made me feel really weird when Kaladin thanked Dalinar and said:

“Thank you,” Kaladin said to Dalinar, “for believing me.”

“I do listen sometimes , soldier,” Dalinar said. “Now go back to camp and get some rest.”

 

Like, uh, Kaladin? He told you, plain as day, that he didn't believe you. Why are you thanking him for putting you through that?

 

(There's also the small matter where he got Tien killed by sending Roshone to torture a small town, but Kaladin hasn't brought that up.)

Edited April 1, 2014 by Moogle

[Seloun]

We know that Dalinar began binding the Shardblade about 6-7 days before Shallan visits Taln:

 

 

Is your father feeling better? she wrote.

 

Yes, actually. He’s been up and about since yesterday, looking as strong as ever.

 

Good to hear, she wrote. The two continued exchanging idle comments, Shallan watching the tree. Mraize’s note had instructed her to come at sunrise and search the hole in the tree trunk for her instructions. So she’d come four hours early, while the sky was still dark, and sneaked up to the top of this building to watch.

 

It's at least 6 days, since Kaladin meets Dalinar the day before Shallan's meeting Taln according to the timeline, and Dalinar is not carrying a Shardblade. But this makes it difficult to impossible for Dalinar to have bound the blade before the arena fight. This implies that Dalinar only came up with the plan after Kaladin is imprisoned (roughly the same time Adolin shuts himself off, interestingly enough) since it sounds like Dalinar starts binding the blade about the same time he comes up with the plan (however, there is room for error here).

 

As an aside, this also implies Adolin is writing to Shallan from his cell! I completely missed that. I wonder what he would have done if Shallan had accepted his offer to keep her company?