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Godmetals and Shards


Spaceferring

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I'm not sure what spoiler policy is for Mistborn, so I'm just gonna say that this has MAJOR Mistborn spoilers.

Each Shard on Scadrial has 2 things associated to itself: a Metallic Art and a Godmetal (I'm gonna capitalize this because why not). Hemalurgy for Ruin, Allomancy for Preservation.

It's fairly easy to demonstrate why Feruchemy is associated with Harmony (if you want me to explain, post Explain in the comments please because I don't have much time now)

For me, Godmetals have the most powerful effect in the Metallic Art of the Shard is associated with: Lerasium makes you into the most powerful Allomancer you can be, a Mistborn. For this reason, I think the info we have about H-Atium is downplayed (I have a theory, but again, I don't have much time so post Theory down below).

So, by the same logic, Harmonium/Ettmetal should do something really cool in Feruchemy. My theory is that we saw it in BoM. That's right, the primer cube.

My theory is that a Feruchemist filling a Harmoniummind would somehow dampen nearby Allomantic charges of a certain metal. Like tin, you would have to use a different metalmind per Allomantic metal. Then, tapping the metalmind would replicate Allomancy, centered on the Feruchemist. Tapping it faster coyld even replicate duralumin.

I think that harmonium alloys would enable you to store only Allomantic pulses of that metal.

This would mean that the Southern Scadrians have discovered how to mechamize Feruchemy, which is an idea I like very much because of all the possible uses, of which I'll be happy to tell you about at length, but not now.

Thoughts?

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/31/2018 at 0:11 PM, Spacefaring Ferring said:

It's fairly easy to demonstrate why Feruchemy is associated with Harmony (if you want me to explain, post Explain in the comments please because I don't have much time now)

I would appreciate an explanation.  Feruchemy predates Harmony by thousands of years.  

 

On 7/31/2018 at 0:11 PM, Spacefaring Ferring said:

For me, Godmetals have the most powerful effect in the Metallic Art of the Shard is associated with: Lerasium makes you into the most powerful Allomancer you can be, a Mistborn. For this reason, I think the info we have about H-Atium is downplayed (I have a theory, but again, I don't have much time so post Theory down below).

Brandon has explicitly told us what H-Atium does: it can steal any power, and it does so more efficiently.  

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2 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I would appreciate an explanation.  Feruchemy predates Harmony by thousands of years.  

I assume the reasoning would be that Feruchemy is the result of interplay between Preservation and Ruin. While Allomancy is of Preservation and Hemalurgy is of Ruin, Feruchemy is of both - similar to Harmony.

Quote

Unlike Allomancy and Hemalurgy however, which are each closely attuned with one of the Shards, Feruchemy is equally attuned to both and represents the balance between them. - https://coppermind.net/wiki/Feruchemy#History

 

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I've always seen Feruchemy as a power that comes from Ruin's and Preservation's influence cancelling out. Hemalurgy is Ruin's and is end negative as in net power is lost, and energy is lost when spiking. Allomancy is of Preservation, and is end positive, as in there is a net power gain when drawing power from the metals. Feruchemy is end neutral, nothing is created or destroyed, the net energy is the same as a normal person, they can just use it in a different way. That's how it's always worked in my brain at least. 

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@Scion of the Mists Basically, as @KalaDANG put it, Feruchemy is Ruin and Preservation's powers balancing each other out, so it could be called the power of balance. And what is Ruin and Preservation cancelling each other out? I say that sticks with Harmony.

Also, before he Ascended, Sazed was a Feruchemist, which I think is also a factor. 

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3 minutes ago, Spacefaring Ferring said:

Why? 

He's going off this WoB. 

Quote

Questioner

What is Feruchemy, is it tied to any Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Feruchemy, is it tied to any Shard in specific? Yes, they talk about that in the books.

Questioner

Ok, it's like, of Preservation?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you could say that.

Brandon Sanderson

Because it seems like one Shard, one magic system?

Brandon Sanderson

Here's the thing, it's more that-- They, in their philosophy, say that it's kind of a hybrid between the two, but you could kind of feel that it's more--

Questioner

It seems more Preservation.

Brandon Sanderson

It seems more Preservation, but in-world they think it's kind of a hybrid. The philosophy says that one was kind of net-positive, one was kind of net-negative and one was a hybrid. That's their in-world philosophy. I personally would place it more with Preservation.

Questioner

Ok so more than one magic system can be tied to one Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. 

Questioner

Ok, that's what I wanted to know.

Brandon Sanderson

Here's the thing, the definition of magic system can be, is so fluid. Like you can look at this book and say "how many magic systems are there?". Is Surgebinding one or is it ten?

Questioner

Allomancy's 16--

Brandon Sanderson

Is Allomancy 16 or one, and things like that. So yes multiple magic systems can be tied to a Shard.

source

 

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10 hours ago, Calderis said:

He's going off this WoB. 

 

Oh, didn't know that. Thanks! But I still think that Feruchemy is of Harmony... Maybe the WoB came from before era 2, so Branderson didn't want to reveal Harmony's aspects? Maybe? 

Whatever I'm just trying to save my theory at this point

 

EDIT: I just noticed the "Branderson". Brain. What. 

Edited by Spacefaring Ferring
Noticed a typo
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6 minutes ago, Spacefaring Ferring said:

Oh, didn't know that. Thanks! But I still think that Feruchemy is of Harmony... Maybe the WoB came from before era 2, so Branderson didn't want to reveal Harmony's aspects? Maybe? 

Whatever I'm just trying to save my theory at this point

I happen to agree. 

 

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19 hours ago, Spacefaring Ferring said:

Oh, didn't know that. Thanks! But I still think that Feruchemy is of Harmony... Maybe the WoB came from before era 2, so Branderson didn't want to reveal Harmony's aspects? Maybe? 

I don't think Brandon was hiding anything.  If you think about it, he said:

20 hours ago, Calderis said:

I personally would place it more with Preservation.

If we think about the Intent (I can't remember if "intent" should be capitalized or not) of the shards, Feruchemy matches Harmony's Intent, which makes sense as it is a power that comes from the blending of 2 shards.  However, though Ruin represents a net loss, Preservation is strange in the books as preservation should represent a net neutral (same as harmony), however seems to represent a net gain.  Anyway, as Preservation wants to keep things the same, net neutral also seems to match.

It seems to me, that Preservation has closer ties to Feruchemy than Ruin, however, it would ultimately be a power of Harmony.

 

Lastly, I disagree with what Harmonium will end up granting. burning Lerasium grants people the ability to use Allomancy, Hemalurgically using Atium takes all power from an individual and gives it to someone else.  Both of these use their own magic systems to grant powers.  Therefore, I think Harmonium will grant people the ability to use Feruchemy.  If I remember correctly, there are medalions at the end of BoM that grant the ability to use Feruchemy-warmth.  I think this is Harmonium (or an alloy with brass at least)

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4 minutes ago, Furamirionind said:

Lastly, I disagree with what Harmonium will end up granting. burning Lerasium grants people the ability to use Allomancy, Hemalurgically using Atium takes all power from an individual and gives it to someone else.  Both of these use their own magic systems to grant powers.  Therefore, I think Harmonium will grant people the ability to use Feruchemy.  If I remember correctly, there are medalions at the end of BoM that grant the ability to use Feruchemy-warmth.  I think this is Harmonium (or an alloy with brass at least)

Harmonium didn't exist prior to Harmony's assent ion. It being the means to gain Feruchemy would be... Odd. Burning it is also problematic as if explodes if gets wet. 

I don't believe that ettmetal is needed for the medallions either they have brass storages, and a nicrosil ring to grant the ability to use brass. They may use ettmetal somehow... But I don't think it's necessary. 

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Brandon hasn't said this, but Feruchemy at least approaches being end-negative if you tap extra for a larger effect, and I see this as Ruin's influence over the system. Preservation would enable gently storing power to use later, while Ruin would like you to store a lot of power only to use it very quickly. It also relates to Ruin's theme of time-related powers.

Large uses wasting some of the power is canon, but the rest I'm just imagining.

 

Quote

 

Sporkify

This is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

Footnote: This question was asked when fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy had only been seen in Rashek. As such, the term compounding is used purely to reference tapping at a higher rate than can be stored.
source

 

 

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@Morsk he's also said that the "end-" whatever system is really only applicable on Scadrial, and that even Feruchemy is "end-positive" if only slightly.

Quote

Questioner

So for the Old Magic, in this classification system of end-positive, end-neutral, and end-negative, where would that fall under?

Brandon Sanderson

So, almost every magic in the cosmere is end-positive, almost every magic is relying upon an external source of Investiture to power it. So that phrasing is mostly more relevant to Scadrial than anywhere else, because that concept is how I'm dealing with things like the laws of thermodynamics, and even what they call end-neutral is relying a little bit on the power of Investiture to facilitate. So even an end-neutral magic system as they define it on Scadrial is actually not end-neutral. What you get put in you get out, but the power is facilitating that transfer… So that phrasing is kind of a... Take that as a science on.. Scadrial that does not extrapolate well, and may not even be 100% accurate.

Moderator

That would have been a great thing to know before we did the cosmere magic panel. *laughter*

Brandon Sanderson

I look at it as, is an Investiture externally powering the magic, and if you look at Allomancy, yes it is. You are drawing that power out. Feruchemy, you are putting Investiture in from your own body, it's your energy transferring to Investiture, which is being stored, which you are then drawing out, and things like that. But that changing forms is facilitated by the magic. Whereas you're stealing stuff with-- So you could look, for instance at the magic on Nalthis, you could look at that one as being-- as kind of working as end-negative, meaning "I am taking it away from someone else", or end-positive depending on if you're the one receiving it or not. So again, it's a phrasing that can be useful as a tool but doesn't scale well to the other magics.

source

Feruchemy does have loss when tapped at high rates... But the transfer of investiture between the person and the metal is in itself facilitated by outside investiture. 

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14 hours ago, Furamirionind said:

Lastly, I disagree with what Harmonium will end up granting. burning Lerasium grants people the ability to use Allomancy, Hemalurgically using Atium takes all power from an individual and gives it to someone else.  Both of these use their own magic systems to grant powers.  Therefore, I think Harmonium will grant people the ability to use Feruchemy.  If I remember correctly, there are medalions at the end of BoM that grant the ability to use Feruchemy-warmth.  I think this is Harmonium (or an alloy with brass at least)

You know, that was actually my original theory about harmonium, but I thought that the current one would make more sense from what we know about the primer cube, which is the only harmonium - powered device we know about in more detail. 

Also, the medallions in BoM work with Nicrosil, which allows you to store various forms of Investiture. It does not make you a Metalborn permanently. 

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