So Kaladin betrayed Dalinar

[Calderis]

5 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Do you mean that Elhokar didn’t really progress at all?

He did... I don't think he went as far as most people try to give him credit for, but he definitely did. 

I just think that the point of that progress wasn't Elhokar's journey, but the readers. 

[Subvisual Haze]

On 8/4/2018 at 0:23 PM, Vissy said:

I think Moash was a lost cause from the moment he decided to give his pain to Odium. Allowing a malevolent, manipulative Shard any kind of power over you is like giving up (at least a part of) your free will. By taking his pain, Odium's actions turned Moash into the kind of person that is capable of betraying Kaladin, but ultimately Moash was still the kind of person who'd willingly allow that to happen to himself. He could've tried to take power into his own hands and genuinely pursue revolution, and that would've been respectable from my POV and fine as a character arc, but instead he decided to willingly become the slave of a being that wants to genocide the entire planet because he was too afraid to face up to his own regrets. 

TL;DR storm Moash; he deserves whatever's coming to him!

Yeah, I too really feel the theme of the Stormlight Archives thus far has been that anyone who makes a bad turn in their life is unforgivable trash and not at all worthy of our empathy or being offered second chances.

[Vissy]

5 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Yeah, I too really feel the theme of the Stormlight Archives thus far has been that anyone who makes a bad turn in their life is unforgivable trash and not at all worthy of our empathy or being offered second chances.

I can see an argument for that when you haven't started murdering people or indirectly condoning genocide. But once you've crossed that line there really isn't a way to return unless Moash literally cuffs himself, turns himself in and renounces everything that he's done for the past year or so in SA4.

Moash is unforgivable trash though so you got that right 

Edited August 6, 2018 by Vissy

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Vissy said:

I can see an argument for that when you haven't started murdering people or indirectly condoning genocide.

So, we're talking about Blackthorn Dalinar right? 

[Vissy]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

So, we're talking about Blackthorn Dalinar right? 

Yes, him as well. He's completely unforgivable.

[+robardin]

On 8/4/2018 at 0:26 PM, Calderis said:

Moash's killing of Elhokar doesn't bother me in the slightest. From Moash's viewpoint it was deserved ...

One of the most masterful things Brandon accomplished in OB was the arc that made every one care about Elhokar, because his "progress" was all there to make everyone feel this way. At the end of WoR, if Elhokar had died, no one would have cared.

This is a good point - Moash was not present for any of the scenes where Elhokar demonstrated maturation as a king, as a leader, and as a person.

Doubtless he would not have given such growth any weight in his quest for vengeance, considering what else he'd already put on the other side of the emotional balance pan. I think part of what drove him to kill Elhokar in the end was the price he'd already paid to do it in betraying Kaladin, which he did feel very badly about... But instead of trying to recover that relationship with Kaladin, he decided to go all-in on the vengeance side, with his guilt as a kind of sunk cost.

I never expected Moash to "get over" his hatred of Elhokar. That's not what I find despicable about his betrayal of Kaladin. It's that he put that above the loyalty I think he owed to Kaladin above anything else in his life. Which has nothing to do with progressing as a Windrunner or embracing the Immortal Words, but simply being a decent human being.

But from the reader's POV, we were turned around from not liking Elhokar very much into rooting for him; or at least, we were meant to be (it seems there are those readers who were immune, heh).

I really liked his reaction to seeing Shallan's idealized drawing of him. It echoed what she did, unintentionally, with Tklav the slaver, and she's since advanced as a Lightweaver, so her power to transform at a level of self-idealization is going to be very interesting in terms of having people attract spren (what would she draw Adolin to be?).

Edited August 6, 2018 by robardin

[Wander89]

I don't think that Kaladin "betrayed" Dalinar. Kaladin has his Bridge Four Brothers and his attempt to turn Moash into a "hero" hurt him. He failed and he has continued to fail Yes, he's with-holding information but I feel like he's confused a on one hand he has Dalinar - his fellow Radiant who has saved him from slavery and on the other he has brothers-in-arms who have been through everything with him [Moash included].

 

I see this being a big part to future plot-points. Something needs to break the group and this could turn Adolin/Dalinar.

[TousenShadowForged]

please stop saying we when it comes to elkhokar he is dead and good riddance

[CosmicSieve]

I was under the impression that Kaladin did tell Dalinar about the plot to kill the king at the end of WoR. Right after bringing Dalinar the honorblade, Kaladin tells him that they need to talk. 

[Calderis]

15 minutes ago, CosmicSieve said:

I was under the impression that Kaladin did tell Dalinar about the plot to kill the king at the end of WoR. Right after bringing Dalinar the honorblade, Kaladin tells him that they need to talk. 

He does say "we need to talk" but it doesn't actually happen. 

Quote

“The assassin?”

“Dead,” Kaladin said, hefting the Blade and sticking it down into the rock before Dalinar. “We need to talk. This—”
“My son, bridgeman,” Navani asked from behind. She stepped up and took Kaladin by the arm, as if completely unconcerned by the Stormlight that drifted from his skin like smoke. “What happened to my son?”
“There was an assassination attempt,” Kaladin said. “I stopped it, but the king was wounded. I put him someplace safe before coming to help Dalinar.”
“Where?” Navani demanded. “We’ve had our people in the warcamps search monasteries, mansions, the barracks . . .”
“Those places were too obvious,” Kaladin said. “If you could think to look there, so might the assassins. I needed someplace nobody would think of.”
“Where, then?” Dalinar asked.
Kaladin smiled.

Mine is the original ending, so if something about that changed in the altered ending... 

[IllNsickly]

Chiming in, I suppose.

 

I was a heavy Moash fan, for a long time. Even after the attempt on Elhokar at the end of WoR. Bitterness and Resentment make a perfect stew with Hatred. If it was slightly misplaced, I don’t blame him. Ultimate Authority is what ended his Grandparents lives. That Ultimate Authority is all that mattered to him.

HOWEVER, he would have had nothing had it not been for Kaladin. That betrayal, the Salute, is what killed it for me. If he had simply done the deed and left, he would still have been redeemable in my eyes. That Salute brought Kaladin into the execution and, in his own mind, gave Kaladin some of the responsibility and guilt for it. I do not like that. 

Then the Jezrien kill. ‘Here, take this funny knife and kill the old man’ and he does it. That’s going to take some serious Redemption Arcing. Serious.

Elhokar had been shown as a sort of a whinging, ineffectual figurehead who was incapable of ruling or even leading. Kaladin’s being complicit in the assassination attempt at the end of WoR, all he had to do was be somewhere else. Well, I didn’t disagree with Moash, so his involvement was sort of an ancillary thing in my eyes. His own indecision and internal guilt is what caused the Bond failure with Syl. his internal strife was initially over conflicting Oaths, and those conflicts made him realize what Elhokar meant to Dalinar. He corrected himself before his inaction was completely irrevocable. Evidenced by Syl reforging the bond.

 

Kind of a lot happened in OB and I simply don’t think there was enough time for the conversation between Kaladin and Dalinar to happen. It needs to happen and Kaladin himself has to tell Dalinar face to face, but I doubt there is any great damage done, because at the penultimate moment, he made the right decision.

 

TL;DR:

Moash has some serious work to do if he has a shot at redemption.

Kaladin needs to come clean to Dalinar. Even if it is just to clear the weight from his shoulders.

 

[Bigmikey357]

The betrayal aspects of Moash's behavior is what kills it for me. Every single time. He can see the world changing before his eyes. He had multiple chances to turn away from vengence and play for Team Honor. He in many ways acts out Windrunner Ideals. And he just keeps throwing away his chances. Kaladin had his beef with Roshone. Kaladin had deaths to lay at Roshone's feet. He outgrew them. Moash never even tried. I agree that Kal needs to come clean but his betrayal isn't even in the same ballpark as Moash.

[hypatia]

I agree - Kaladin should come clean with Dalinar before someone else - I'm thinking of Damlan or Taravangian - let the bomb drop.

WE know what had happened with Kaladin in the palace, WE know his reason, his past, his decisions, but what about other people?

If another source than himself tells about his involvation in the attempt to kill Elhokar, what will they think about it?

He let the assassins escape, sided with Parshmen, didn't do anything in the fight and then let his old companion just kill the king.

Espacially the salute is possibly same powerfull evidence against Kaladin.

Even if there aren't real consequences for him, this will bring distrust within the orders and isn't this something Odium would want?

[CosmicSieve]

On 8/23/2018 at 9:43 AM, Calderis said:

He does say "we need to talk" but it doesn't actually happen. 

Mine is the original ending, so if something about that changed in the altered ending... 

I don't have the altered ending. There was no conversation that I know abut on page, just Kaladin telling Dalinar that they needed to talk. They were at Urithiru about a Roshar week to six days before Kaladin flew off to find his parents, which is plenty of time to have a conversation. It was simply my impression that he had talked to Dalinar about what had happened. I could very well be wrong, because it is not on page. Kaladin only ever seems to worry about what he hasn't said to Bridge 4, not about anything he hasn't said tio Dalinar, which also gave me the impression they had talked. 

[Calderis]

@CosmicSieve huh, you may be right, not just from the time, but because of this exchange in OB

Quote

“You won’t need a large force,” Dalinar said. “You, a few of your best squires. I’d send Adolin with you too, so you have another Shardbearer in an emergency. Six, perhaps? You, three of your men, the king, Adolin. Get past the enemy, sneak into the palace, and activate the Oathgate.”
“Pardon if this is out of line,” Kaladin said, “but Elhokar himself is the odd one. Why not just send me and Adolin? The king will probably slow us down.”
“The king needs to go for personal reasons. Will there be a problem between you?”
“I’ll do what is right, regardless of my feelings, sir. And … I might be beyond those feelings anyway, now.”

That implies it was addressed off screen... Which kind of bothers me, but I'll deal with it. 

[TousenShadowForged]

I do believe based on the context they informed moash who jez was.

 

redemption isn't hard since so many in this story have done their share of bs

[MountainKing]

What BS has Kaladin's and Shallan done. Shallan was defending herself and saving her brothers, and Kaladin's AHS been trying to save people ever since Tien died, he only thought about letting the King defense less. Remember everyone thought he was dead, it was already decided for Moash to take over a captain of the guard, all Kaladin was not speak up.

[Draginon]

I haven't read Oath yet (I'm close though!) so I don't know the exact details and context of Moash's problems there, but I'll put my $0.02 in.

To me it's more about the actions and thoughts of the character that determines if they deserve forgiveness, or at least understanding. Using other characters as examples Snape is still a very bad person because he was a bully to his students but the flashbacks in book 7 helps you understand him but not forgive. Then there's Hrathen who really does feel bad for his actions in Duladel and not wanting to repeat them in Arelon and when push came to shove he chose the path of saving people versus letting them be killed.

In a way Kaladin's role in the attempted assassination in WOR is similar to Hrathen in a sense since he was content to let Elhokar be killed but then realized he couldn't live with himself if he stood by. Kaladin chose to save a life he regretted condemning to death because he didn't like Dalinar 'doing nothing to punish Amaram' (that's the straw that led him to his actions in the attempted assassination), but with Moash he only cared about vengeance and couldn't understand why Kaladin wanted to defend the king. Sure the king wasn't the best monarch but he was trying his best while being stuck in a situation he wasn't prepared for and he was trying to make up for his past mistakes.

Pretty much what I'm saying is trying to get past your mistakes, making up for your mistakes or fixing your mistakes before they finish is a reason for forgiveness but not even trying to do that makes you a terrible person.

[minima]

I don't think that Kaladin and Dalinar talked about what happened in the end of Word of Radiance - what Dalinar said in Oathbirnger it only says that he knew about Kaladin problems with Elhokar, not about what he did or what he didn't do. I don't think that Sanderson would miss this kind of conversation in his novel - it is crucial for action. And if Kaladin would talk with Dalinar he would think about it much more than one short sentence in OB.

 

[hypatia]

It is possible that they had talked about the whole affair and this shows that talking has no inpact on the outcome at Kholinar.

Personally I believe Kaladin hadn't told Dalinar - or perhaps even Elhokar because he's the one in danger - about Moash and his reasons for vengeance.

The whole Roshone - Affair left too many questions for me Moash's story couldn't answer. I always thought we need to know what happened from someone who was there at the time and wasn't involved in this affair - Dalinar.

Obviously Kaladin had the same opinion and asked him - but the author chose to let Dalinar tell nearly nothing about what really happened.

The interesting part for me was that there were rumors - ever since this I saw a boy coming back to Kholinar with his grandparents dead and the city full of rumors and was asking myself the question: Is the story he told Kaladin the truth or one of the rumors?

In fact - I think it's a rumor because Brandon Sanderson didn't let Dalinar talk about it. Why would he if it was the same story?

But there are more questions:

What was Roshone doing for the crown aka Gavilar?

Who did Elhokar trust?

What happened with the shops?

Why didn't the grandparents train Moash as a silversmith when he was their only relative?

Then with OB we got Moash's PoV and one little tidebit:

The grandparents not only allowed Moash to leeve, they encouraged him to find his way outside their shop.

And he wasn't alone - there was an uncle with him.

First - he lied when he told Kaladin his grandparents were his only relatives.

And second - this uncle is possible to be a son, perhaps even the heir of the grandparents.

This would be an answer for the last questions.

And of course there's the WoB about Elhokar - that he was "maligned".

[Nymeros]

On 8/27/2018 at 7:16 AM, hypatia said:

And he wasn't alone - there was an uncle with him.

This isn't relevant but where was this mentioned?  Can you provide a quote?

[hypatia]

@Nymeros

OB, chapter 48 - Rhythm Of Work

Page 482

"...He'd walked this path dozens of time, running caravans with his uncle even when he'd been a youth..."

When they are on their way to Kholinar.

[Calderis]

He may have lied, or the uncle may have died when he was older leaving the grandparents as the only family left while he continued caravan work. 

[Trons]

So I went back and reread this section and I think this is interesting.  The quote from Kaladin to Dalinar is: "Dead," Kaladin said, hefting the blade and sticking it down into the rock before Dalinar. "We need to talk.  This--" and then he is interrupted by Navani asking about Elhokar.  In this context, I think the "we need to talk" is more about the sword and assassin because he'd just stuck it in the ground and started to say something like "This sword belonged to the assassin..."  I don't think it means he wanted to talk to Dalinar about his role in the attempt.  The quote is on page 1267 of WoR paper back.

I also went back and reread the section where Kaladin says "He'd have to face his friends betrayal -- and near assassination of Elhokar -- at some point.  For now he had more pressing wounds that needed tending." I get the impression that 's more an internal facing, then him admitting he needs to tell Dalinar or Bridge 4.  I get this because it does say there are more pressing wounds, and those wounds, at the time, appear to be his, not Bridge 4's or Dalinar's.

I can't find it, but I remember him telling bridge 4 that Moash just wasn't around anymore, so I see it as him deciding they don't have "need to know."

As far as Dalinar is concerned, I got the impression that maybe BS wanted to have the conversation on paper, but, probably decided, eventually, that there was no good way to do it and it could create more problems then it would solve and didn't fit into the narrative as he wanted us, the readers, to see it.  I think the part about Kal saying he probably doesn't feel that way when asked if Elhokar would be a problem is BS's way of saying "this has been resolved and no reason to worry about it any more."

As far as using modern social standards, one thing I actually like about SA is that it takes me to their world.  I think BS does a great job of saying "there's a different morality here, and it's okay to view the characters from that morality then from your own."

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Trons

[Nymeros]

On 8/28/2018 at 8:57 AM, hypatia said:

@Nymeros

OB, chapter 48 - Rhythm Of Work

Page 482

"...He'd walked this path dozens of time, running caravans with his uncle even when he'd been a youth..."

When they are on their way to Kholinar.

Interesting. Thank you.

 

Dalinar re-affirmed Moashs story so I have no need to doubt it but that's an interesting note.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Nymeros