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Regarding Steel and Iron


StarrFall

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I've been thinking about mechanical engineering on Scadrial and was hoping someone could set me straight so that I can daydream accurately:

First, and more simply, would it be reasonable to assume that a Lurcher could potentially learn to use an "Iron Bubble" a la Wax's "Steel Bubble", whereby they Pull on all metals around them generically?

Second, when Allomancers use Iron and Steel could a sheet of aluminum effectively block other metals from the iron/steel sight by "line of sight" (from the chest, of course :)) alone or would the aluminum have to completely encapsulate the other metal to hide it from iron/steel sight? 

Clarifying questions to second, assuming answer is "line of sight" as I suspect: Would the thickness of the aluminum be a factor in the ability to detect metal on the other side of it?

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21 minutes ago, StarrFall said:

would it be reasonable to assume that a Lurcher could potentially learn to use an "Iron Bubble" a la Wax's "Steel Bubble", whereby they Pull on all metals around them generically?

It is possible, although Wax's Steel Bubble might also be do to his ability to tap iron, increasing his inherent understanding of weight, in which case no. It is unclear if the steel bubble is from an extreme skill in steel or a resonance between the powers.

25 minutes ago, StarrFall said:

Second, when Allomancers use Iron and Steel could a sheet of aluminum effectively block other metals from the iron/steel sight by "line of sight" (from the chest, of course :)) alone or would the aluminum have to completely encapsulate the other metal to hide it from iron/steel sight?

I would guess yes, but this has not been demonstrated in text yet.

27 minutes ago, StarrFall said:

Clarifying questions to second, assuming answer is "line of sight" as I suspect: Would the thickness of the aluminum be a factor in the ability to detect metal on the other side of it?

So far any amount of aluminum has been capable of completely interfering with investiture usage. People on Scadrial era 2 wear thin plates of aluminum in there hats to effectively block out rioting/soothing. The

OB Spoiler:

Spoiler

A certain person on Roshar had people line a room with aluminum sheets, and they completely covered up what was going on. The thickness of the sheets wasn't described though, but I get the impression that the amount does not matter.

 

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1 hour ago, StarrFall said:

Clarifying questions to second, assuming answer is "line of sight" as I suspect: Would the thickness of the aluminum be a factor in the ability to detect metal on the other side of it?

Yes, the thickness of metal matters, which makes me think just having aluminum block line of sight won't work. 

Quote

Questioner

In Allomancy, aluminum won't be able to be pushed or pulled, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Questioner

So if you put a piece of steel like a gun barrel, and then you surround it with aluminum, can you still push the gun barrel?

Brandon Sanderson

The aluminum will add some interference, it's gonna depend on how thick the aluminum is. It's probably unfeasible. That is a viable concept, I don't think it's feasible on a gun barrel.

source

 

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Say one embedded a small ball of iron in a larger egg-shaped mass of aluminum, but with the iron oriented to one of the tips of the egg so that it was much heavier on one end than the other (and more to the point, so one side of the iron is heavily shielded by alumninum while the other is only thinly shielded).  Would you agree that it sounds PLAUSIBLE that a Coinshot/Lurcher would have an easier time detecting and interacting the iron within the aluminum egg when the side with the iron ball is oriented towards the Allomancer and a harder time when the iron ball is oriented away from the Allomancer?

*thinking allomantic motor designs*

Iron and Aluminum.png

Edited by StarrFall
Added image for clarity
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If the aluminum was thin enough to push through, I don't think it would be strong enough to perform any task inside a motor. Of course, you could find another tough but non magnetic material to wrap the iron in. But to answer your original question, I imagine it would be easier to push on the side with the the metal is closer too. I'm not sure though, since there may apparently be a form of overlapping occurring in the spiritual realm. At least, that's what happens with shardplate. Even when not wearing a helmet, the shardplate envelopes the entire body in an interference field.

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1 hour ago, Wandering Investor said:

If the aluminum was thin enough to push through, I don't think it would be strong enough to perform any task inside a motor.

If that be the case then I'm not sure the mechanism I had in mind could be powered by Iron.  That said it could still feasibly be driven by Steel as there would certainly be enough of a mass of aluminum behind it to bear the force of the Push (we use aluminum in rockets, it can be strong stuff when not in a foil-ish format).  My thought was that these "eggs" could be mounted around a flywheel and oriented so that the Allomancer would be able to push the hardest on the metal inside them just after the egg moves between the Allomancer and the axle the flywheel is on.

My (original) thought was that the Allomancer just throws up a Steel/Iron bubble to get the wheel moving and then normal world mechanics can be used to "shift" the rotation to the gear configuration necessary for the task at hand.  Assuming that Lurchers won't pull the iron out of the aluminum then the eggs would just need to be rotated 180 deg in order to toggle between Steel drive and Iron drive.

At work but will slap another picture together later to better illustrate my thoughts.

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Aluminum can be tough, but that would make it thicker and would block the push. But something like what you're thinking could work with other materials. Kelsier was able to push and pull against opposite ends of a pole in order to spin it super fast. So a proper gear setup could allow a steel or iron allomancer to move gears. The airship the southern scadrialians used appears to use steel to turn the propellers, so there seems to be some gear spinning going on there. 

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2 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

The airship the southern scadrialians used appears to use steel to turn the propellers, so there seems to be some gear spinning going on there. 

That mechanism is precisely what I'm trying to puzzle out, generically speaking.

7 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

So far any amount of aluminum has been capable of completely interfering with investiture usage. People on Scadrial era 2 wear thin plates of aluminum in there hats to effectively block out rioting/soothing.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

The aluminum will add some interference, it's gonna depend on how thick the aluminum is. It's probably unfeasible. That is a viable concept, I don't think it's feasible on a gun barrel.

source

The egg design should mean that the ability to sense/push on the Allomantically-visible metal would change in an oscillating pattern as the wheel they are attached to rotates (see pic below).  With the "eggs" oriented in this way, the wheel should turn when a Push is applied to all visible lines (via Steel Bubble or direct focus). 

I still think that line of sight may be a factor based on the point about Aluminum hat lining and Brandon's statement on the concept being feasible (I don't THINK they are talking about plating the inside of a rifle with Aluminum).  If a large enough mass of Aluminum can COMPLETELY hide a ball of iron by line of sight (meaning Iron is exposed on one tip of the "egg" but can't be sensed when the opposite tip is presented to the Allomancer), then that would exponentially increase the engine's efficiency.  If an Allomancer can learn to pulse their Pushes/Pulls fast enough then that may not matter (meaning the Allomancer would only push on the strongest line as it comes around and releases as soon as the next egg is in position, but fast enough to do something meaningful, mechanically).  Vin was able to use ingots to fly across open ground, so who knows.

Feasible model for Allomantic Turbine? 

EDIT: Note that this image is showing in the "Steel Drive" configuration of the Turbine; the egg design and/or angle on which it is mounted would have to be tweaked to be optimized for an "Iron Drive" configuration.  Also, don't hate on my rough Paint!

Allomantic Turbine.png

Edited by StarrFall
Turbine showing "Steel Drive" configuration
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Physical arrangement can get you some force differential in the form of a perpendicular arrangement that's aligned to the upper node such that it delivers a different force there vs the lower one that is at an angle, and the shielding you describe would at least help in that scenario since Allowmancy does not drop off as quickly with distance as Magnetism does.

Im not sure it would work (well) for more or less the same reasons that we cannot make a motor with just permanent magnets: you're going need some form of Switching in the system, some capability to change the direction (which is the limit of natural push/pullers that can only direct force toward or away from their center of gravity) or it will eventually just run down like all the best perpetual motion machines.  We dont know much about the interconnection workings of the Southern Tech, but as a base they'd need to be able to able to channel the effects of the Harmonium drive cube to different locations around the system or it would not be able to do any other duty besides the main, single-direction lift.  So if you can do any kind of switching them you can just arrange the poles like we do with the various electro-magnetic motor styles today.

The ability to switch your motive force is key to getting any sort of cyclic work out of a system.  With electricity this means AC current (ie Alternating) or else a Direct current with mechanical switching as part of the motor itself (and usually some cycle energy storage like a flywheel). Lacking the ability to selectively push objects or move the push/pull force dynamically puts you back into the basic Stored-Force realm where clockwork and , I think a simpler solution would be closer to the steam piston-designs you've seen on old railroad engines, where the Steel and Iron (or just one and some spring-return device) are alternating a push/pull on a linear shaft and the machine design is what translates that to rotation.  Or even just allomantically compress a drive spring and make the rest of the system all cogworks

 

Edited by Quantus
cut off last sentence somehow...
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1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Im not sure it would work (well) for more or less the same reasons that we cannot make a motor with just permanent magnets: you're going need some form of Switching in the system, some capability to change the direction (which is the limit of natural push/pullers that can only direct force toward or away from their center of gravity) or it will eventually just run down like all the best perpetual motion machines. 

Assuming that line of sight is in no way a factor, I’d agree 100% here. However:

Quote

So if you can do any kind of switching them you can just arrange the poles like we do with the various electro-magnetic motor styles today.

Assuming line of sight is a factor, I’d argue that that switching is inherent in the physical design.    

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

I think a simpler solution would be closer to the steam piston-designs you've seen on old railroad engines, where the Steel and Iron (or just one and some spring-return device) are alternating a push/pull on a linear shaft and the machine design is what translates that to rotation.  Or even just allomantically compress a drive spring and make the rest of the system all cogworks

 

The wavelength of electricity is obviously a lot shorter/quicker than an Allomancer is likely able to pulse their Pushes or Pulls, and certainly more efficient then them just Pushing or Pulling on everything available, but Allomancers can also throw their full body weight into each push which would provide more torque directly.

Based on that logic, your suggestion here would almost certainly give a better energy conversion because those pistons could be close to human sized and push a whole lot more machinery. Tip of that hat on that call!

It just wouldn’t make for a very sleek motorcycle...

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10 hours ago, StarrFall said:

Assuming that line of sight is in no way a factor, I’d agree 100% here. However:

Assuming line of sight is a factor, I’d argue that that switching is inherent in the physical design.    

The wavelength of electricity is obviously a lot shorter/quicker than an Allomancer is likely able to pulse their Pushes or Pulls, and certainly more efficient then them just Pushing or Pulling on everything available, but Allomancers can also throw their full body weight into each push which would provide more torque directly.

Based on that logic, your suggestion here would almost certainly give a better energy conversion because those pistons could be close to human sized and push a whole lot more machinery. Tip of that hat on that call!

I was assuming we'd be after a Cube-machine so the mass and response-time limits of an actual allomancer wouldnt be a factor. 

Another relevant factor is how Aluminum is actually functionally shielding things, which is a separate topic Ive been meaning to start: in electromagnetism we use Mu-Metal for shielding, but it doesn't actually /block/ magnetism, rather is is so great at conducting magnetic flux that all the energy flows through it rather than leaking out and interacting with other things.  I recently saw the theory that Aluminum might be doing what it does by being the Investiture equivalent of the Ground State, which would go a long way to explaining why Aluminum is inert to most Investiture but can still be Invested by the Metallic Arts.  

 

10 hours ago, StarrFall said:

 

It just wouldn’t make for a very sleek motorcycle...

 

I would have agreed but I just did a google search for Steam powered motorcycles and some of the designs are actually pretty decent looking

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You could also house the ettmetal inside a aluminum box with a smaller tunnel pointed towards the gear to act as a directional control. Assuming aluminum blocks the investiture/magnetism, then only one side of the gear would be pushed on. This would also allow you to create the gear out of a stronger metal. Direction changing could occur by changing the gears attached to the main drive.

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On 7/30/2018 at 8:29 AM, StarrFall said:

First, and more simply, would it be reasonable to assume that a Lurcher could potentially learn to use an "Iron Bubble" a la Wax's "Steel Bubble", whereby they Pull on all metals around them generically?

 

Its possible. But this WoB says that that is more a result of savantism than an intrinsic ability of the metal.

Quote

Things like Wax's steel bubble are tricks I wanted to save for people like Wax. (He's what we’d call in the Mistborn world a steel savant, so capable with his metal—and having burned it so long, for so many years—that he's got an instinctive ability with it that lets him be very precise.)

source

 

 

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11 hours ago, Quantus said:

I would have agreed but I just did a google search for Steam powered motorcycles and some of the designs are actually pretty decent looking

Touche

7 hours ago, amflare said:

Its possible. But this WoB says that that is more a result of savantism than an intrinsic ability of the metal.

Good call there, I think that's a firm no on that front then.  At least, it's enough of a no that it wouldn't make sense to design around it :) 

11 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

You could also house the ettmetal inside a aluminum box with a smaller tunnel pointed towards the gear to act as a directional control. Assuming aluminum blocks the investiture/magnetism, then only one side of the gear would be pushed on. This would also allow you to create the gear out of a stronger metal. Direction changing could occur by changing the gears attached to the main drive.

I'm guessing that would be way more expensive where rare materials are concerned, but certainly way more efficient too.

 

Side note to all, very happy to be here and to FINALLY be able to talk about this crap and have people not look at me cross-eyed.  The only friend I have reading the series is so far behind that I can't talk to him at all for fear of dropping spoilers.

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12 hours ago, StarrFall said:
20 hours ago, amflare said:

Its possible. But this WoB says that that is more a result of savantism than an intrinsic ability of the metal.

Good call there, I think that's a firm no on that front then.  At least, it's enough of a no that it wouldn't make sense to design around it :) 

In other quotes he kinda backed away from Wax's abilities coming from being a Savant. In his original idea, savantism was a double edged sword, like Spook or see spoiler. He doesn't want power to be free, but Wax has savantism without any apparent repercussions. So the rules on savantism are kinda questionable at the moment, because he may do a rewrite on that. 

OB Spoiler 

Spoiler

The non-radiant soulcasters on Roshar eventually turn into the elements they soulcast as their soul is altered.

Quote: Some OB spoilers:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on Savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision.

Argent

Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around.

Brandon Sanderson

Evgeni,

So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.)

And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences.

That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore.

So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for soulcasting savants on Roshar.)

Feel free to share this.

Argent

Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance."

The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books.

Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon.
source

 

12 hours ago, StarrFall said:

I'm guessing that would be way more expensive where rare materials are concerned, but certainly way more efficient too.

Expensive currently, but Scadrial is well on its way to the level of Chemistry required to produce large amounts of aluminum

12 hours ago, StarrFall said:

Side note to all, very happy to be here and to FINALLY be able to talk about this crap and have people not look at me cross-eyed.  The only friend I have reading the series is so far behind that I can't talk to him at all for fear of dropping spoilers.

Isn't this the best!?.

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