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Fanghur Rahl

Question about the Godspren

Question

I just want to know if I’m understanding this correctly. Is it fair to say that the Stormfather was a Stormspren who ended up being invested with a fragment of Honor’s power/essence, and the Nightwatcher is at least plausibly a Forestspren who Cultivation imbued with a fraction of her own power/essence? Or am I looking at this the wrong way?

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Could be?

The way i see it is these spren were specially created.

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The Stormfather was only the spren of the highstorms before Honor's death when he got Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow. How the Nightwatcher came to be as she is is currently an unknown but there's definitely a connection to Cultivation.

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To add to what Agent34 said, there were the three unique Bondsmith Godspren (Stormfather, Nightwatcher, Sibling) prior to the death of Honor, so he existed in that form prior to bonding Honor's cognitive Shadow. We dont really know much about how things were changed before and after Honor and Cultivation arrived; we know the Highstorm was changed pretty dramatically, but also that both Spren and the Highstorm existed on Roshar back during Adonalsium's time. 

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So it's probably a reasonable (or at least plausible) assumption that the Nightwatcher (or at least some powerful Spren that would ultimately become the Nightwatcher) also existed during that time as well? It's just a little bit confusing because the Stormfather all but explicitly confirms to Dalinar that the Nightwatcher is to Cultivation what the Stormfather is to Honor, albeit presumably through different means since Cultivation was never killed, and yet the two of them seem vastly different in pretty much every respect.

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2 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

So it's probably a reasonable (or at least plausible) assumption that the Nightwatcher (or at least some powerful Spren that would ultimately become the Nightwatcher) also existed during that time as well? It's just a little bit confusing because the Stormfather all but explicitly confirms to Dalinar that the Nightwatcher is to Cultivation what the Stormfather is to Honor, albeit presumably through different means since Cultivation was never killed, and yet the two of them seem vastly different in pretty much every respect.

From what I understand is that the Nightwatcher exists in the same state that the stormfather existed in prior to honors death. If cultivation were to die, then the Nightwatcher would become more similar to the stormfather.

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The Nightwatcher is the same magnitude of spren as the Stormfather, even if she doesn't seem as such.

Snipped after the relevant portion. 

Quote

Questioner

Speaking of the Stormfather, would the Nightwatcher and the giant water spren be on the same level of spren as the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

...The Nightwatcher, yes. Um... There are, I would say, a level below the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher who are also much-- a much bigger deal than something like one of the sapient spren, and that's what Cusicesh is.

-snip-

source

The Stormfather and the Nightwatcher are of a similar "level" and this is speaking separately from the whole Cognitive Shadow business. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

1) The Nightwatcher and Stormfather are parallel entities such that Nighwatcher:Cultivation :: Stormfather:Honor.

2) There is sort of a parallel for Odium, but the parallel is the various Unmade instead of a single entity.

3) They are parallel in that they are all Splinters.

4) The Unmade are voluntary Splinters, because Odium ("like almost all of the other Shards") voluntarily Splintered part of it's power.

5) The Stormfather is different from the others because it's a Sliver.

source

We also have more than enough confirmation that Cultivation is alive and that the two are equivalent. 

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On 7/30/2018 at 5:29 AM, Fanghur Rahl said:

the Stormfather was a Stormspren who ended up being invested with a fragment of Honor’s power/essence

No, Stormspren are a specific variety of voidspren. And the stormfather was always unique. We have confirmation that the Highstorm existed preshattering, which means the Stormfather must have existed preshattering as well in some form or another. Honor then arrived and Invested in the storm, changing the Stormfather and making him something of a champion. 

We have no information on the Nightwatcher aside from her being to Cultivation what the SF is to Honor. The Sibling is confirmed by the Stormfather to be a, well, sibling, of theirs, and that the sibling may be connected to Honor is some manner, but nothing beyond that. I like the theory that all three godspren existed before the shattering in some form, before Honor and Cultivation settled on the planet and modified some of the spren, but that's not confirmed.

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To clarify, when I said ‘Stormspren’, what I meant was that he was merely the Spren of the Highstorm. 

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5 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

To clarify, when I said ‘Stormspren’, what I meant was that he was merely the Spren of the Highstorm. 

Merely the spren of a massively invested world shattering hurricane? Then yes, he was likely the spren of the Highstorm before Honor arrived. No other spren of the Highstorm are noted to exist beyond wind spren, which makes sense since people of Roshar think of The Highstorm as singular, and their thoughts would have shaped any spren of the Highstorm.

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Well, ‘merely’ as opposed to that in addition to being the withered shadow of a nigh-omnipotent deity. Presumably he’s vastly more powerful now than he was when he was ‘merely’ the Spren of the Highstorm.

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Gotcha. I actually don't think he is more powerful. He inherited Honor's cognitive shadow, maybe increasing his cognitive power, but not any of the spiritual power which is the main body of the shard. But thanks to that shadow, he is massively connected to the remnants of Honor. I don't think it does him any good, but it grants a good foothold for anyone that bonds the SF. That's just speculation though, not sure what abilities he had prior to Honor's death.

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Yeah. The Stormfather took in the Cognitive Shadow of the human that once held Honor. I don't think he gained much for his use. The main significance of that, in my opinion, is that the connection provided to the Shard is far more significant for Dalinar than it is for the Spren. 

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19 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Yeah. The Stormfather took in the Cognitive Shadow of the human that once held Honor. I don't think he gained much for his use. The main significance of that, in my opinion, is that the connection provided to the Shard is far more significant for Dalinar than it is for the Spren. 

That and it has had an evolutionary effect on his general cognition and/or outlook, by his own description, which while not precisely a tangible effect is definitely a change.  I suspect that plays a role in how much Dalinar is able to leverage, though Im not sure whether that is by making the spren more "human" via the cognitive Shadow or just changing his nature from a Spren of the Storm to a more rounded/resonant 'Honor' analog. 

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Wait a sec, did the Stormfather take on Tanavast’s cognitive shadow, or Honor AS Tanavast’s? Because without his Shard, Tanavast was presumably no more ‘divine’ than you or I. I always thought the Stormfather was the ‘Spren of Honor’, so to speak, not merely the ‘Spren of Tanavast’.

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28 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Wait a sec, did the Stormfather take on Tanavast’s cognitive shadow, or Honor AS Tanavast’s? Because without his Shard, Tanavast was presumably no more ‘divine’ than you or I. I always thought the Stormfather was the ‘Spren of Honor’, so to speak, not merely the ‘Spren of Tanavast’.

A Shard is just power, if a Cognitive Shadow forms then it's from the Vessel.

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But Tanavast with the Shard is effectively a completely different being than Tanavast without the Shard, with only the former being a god. So presumably both could have a cognitive shadow.

Edited by Fanghur Rahl
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59 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

But Tanavast with the Shard is effectively a completely different being than Tanavast without the Shard, with only the former being a god. So presumably both could have a cognitive shadow.

Tanavast was the vessel of Honor. We refer to them as basically the same thing when one is held, but the the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast is separate from the Shard. 

It's possible in certain circumstances that the Cognitive Shadow could take up that Shard, in a weakened state as we've seen elsewhere, but there wouldn't be a "Cognitive Shadow of Honor."

What the Stormfather absorbed was just Tha shadow of the man. This would still give increased connection to the Shard through a former Vessel, but it wouldn't grant anything in the way of power. 

That said, with the correlation we've been given of the Stormfather and Nightwatcher to the respective Shards, him being a "Spren of Honor" is completely separate from. The CS business. 

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According to Eli Steeli there were 3 mega spren Wind , Stone and Spren . It. Is my opinion these were the 3 singer gods before The shards came. When the shards. Came they adopted the mega spren. Cultivation took the Nightwatcher as an avatar (spren) Tanavast took stormfarther (wind) , and both invested into the sibling (stone) . This is what Eshonai meant when she said Stormfather  betrayed them (the singers) . I believe it was at this time the singers turned to Odium. Many will think my theory wild , but it’s firmly what I believe.

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1 hour ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

According to Eli Steeli there were 3 mega spren Wind , Stone and Spren . It. Is my opinion these were the 3 singer gods before The shards came. When the shards. Came they adopted the mega spren. Cultivation took the Nightwatcher as an avatar (spren) Tanavast took stormfarther (wind) , and both invested into the sibling (stone) . This is what Eshonai meant when she said Stormfather  betrayed them (the singers) . I believe it was at this time the singers turned to Odium. Many will think my theory wild , but it’s firmly what I believe.

Umm, I honestly can’t say whether I think that your theory is wild or not, because I quite honestly did not understand half of what you just said. There’s no such thing as a ‘SprenSpren’ to my knowledge, and the Stormfather is the Spren of the Highstorm specifically, not of wind. Windspren are a separate ‘species’ of Spren.

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43 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

 

Umm, I honestly can’t say whether I think that your theory is wild or not, because I quite honestly did not understand half of what you just said. There’s no such thing as a ‘SprenSpren’ to my knowledge, and the Stormfather is the Spren of the Highstorm specifically, not of wind. Windspren are a separate ‘species’ of Spren.

There was an ancient tome written in the Dawnchant . Later this was revealed to be written by the Singers. It spoke of God of Wind , Spren , and stone . This is my belief what the Singers refered to their Gods as. The God of Wind translates into Stormfather in human language . Just because their are wind spren , and storm spren , this has nothing to do with How they saw Stormfather., The Singers god of Spren , I believe is the being we know as the night watcher. The singers god of Stone I believe is the being we now refer to as the sibling. All three of these Mega-Spren were around before the arrival of the shards of Cultivation , and Honor. When these shards arrived they conscripted to mega spren to serve as Avatars , to lack a better term . 

        When Eshonai went to transform into stormform a huge clue is revealed in the passage. 

“e winds—feeling them blast her, shake her. She felt the rain on her skin. The Rider of Storms was a traitor, yes—but you could not have a traitor who had not originally been a friend. These storms belonged to her people. The lis”

Excerpt From
Words of Radiance
Brandon Sanderson
https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/words-of-radiance/id717847678?mt=11
This material may be protected by copyright.

 

Here is the quote from the Eila Stele:

“We took them in, as commanded by the gods. What else could we do? They were a people forlorn, without a home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind.”

Excerpt From
Oathbringer
Brandon Sanderson
https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/oathbringer/id1198279804?mt=11
This material may be protected by copyright.

So in conclusion 1 we know the singers wrote the Eila Stele. 2. They described three Gods that men stole . 3. It’s not a hard leap to see they mean the Mega Spren. 

4 mega-spren is my term for the Godspren. It seems more accurate. My apologies if my first post was confusing 

Edited by SzethIsBadAsHell
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