Leuthie

Nightblood Taught Odium How To Kill Heralds

53 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Knowledge of aluminium would likely be more wide known among the Fused considering their opponents. The sheath also stands out as it has no ornamentation and metallurgy in general is fairly limited pre-Recreance which I believe is where the Fused knowledge of metallurgy stands.

You'll need to expand on your second sentence because nothing else is giving an explanation for how the Fused knew that the sheath had aluminum or could block the attack. Ornamentation, or lack therefore, would be a pretty silly reason to assume a sheath is made out of aluminum. The second half of the sentence seems to be saying that the Fused have a limited knowledge of metallurgy since they're from a pre-Recreance time, which contrasts sharply with you saying that they might know that aluminum can block magic because they know more. 
 

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The sheath is aluminum.  The sheath was taken because it is aluminum.  The WOB quote about Odium's knowledge was specific to the end of Oathbringer.

Still not sure how any of this shows that Nightblood killing a Fused wasn't a new thing to Odium.

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2 hours ago, Leuthie said:

The sheath is aluminum.  The sheath was taken because it is aluminum.  The WOB quote about Odium's knowledge was specific to the end of Oathbringer.

Still not sure how any of this shows that Nightblood killing a Fused wasn't a new thing to Odium.

It shows that Nightblood killing the Thunderclast and others at the Battle of Thaylen City was completely irrelevant to Odium being aware of Nightblood's capabilities since I think it's very likely that Odium already knew it could do that, as shown by him forewarning the Fused on how to fight his wielder. Nonetheless, nothing about this entire interaction has a tangible link to the creation of the dagger which was used against Jezerien.

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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I doubt a Shard with Odium's knowledge would need to see Nightblood in action in order to understand its effects. 

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1 hour ago, Solarserpent said:

I doubt a Shard with Odium's knowledge would need to see Nightblood in action in order to understand its effects. 

Pretty much this, plus we have a WoB that Odium was aware in advance. 

Spoiler

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So at the of [Oathbringer] how aware is Odium of what Nightblood is and can do?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Modestly. 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Taking the sheath, that kind of thing?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He knows. I would say more than modestly, he is well aware.

source

 

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8 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Still not sure how any of this shows that Nightblood killing a Fused wasn't a new thing to Odium.

The burden of proof isn't on the critic.

Additionally, we've seen Odium impacting things directly in Cognitive/Spiritual before: he can harm Spren, and could've killed the Stormfather; he has shattered Shards(most Shard-Investiture is in Spiritual). Nightblood's no different. Here's a question for you: why would Odium need a template? Nightblood is just a very heavily Invested piece of metal, commanded to Destroy (Evil). Why would Odium not know how to do that?

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17 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

You'll need to expand on your second sentence because nothing else is giving an explanation for how the Fused knew that the sheath had aluminum or could block the attack. Ornamentation, or lack therefore, would be a pretty silly reason to assume a sheath is made out of aluminum. The second half of the sentence seems to be saying that the Fused have a limited knowledge of metallurgy since they're from a pre-Recreance time, which contrasts sharply with you saying that they might know that aluminum can block magic because they know more. 
 

Pay it no heed, I'm just horrible at explaining my intuitive leaps it seems.

I just don't see the need for Odium to inform the Fused specifically about Nightblood as they would have defended themselves them same way like with any other shardblade.

The 'Edgedancer-Fused' would've taken the aluminium regardles.

 

Edited by ScavellTane
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45 minutes ago, recneps said:

The burden of proof isn't on the critic.

Additionally, we've seen Odium impacting things directly in Cognitive/Spiritual before: he can harm Spren, and could've killed the Stormfather; he has shattered Shards(most Shard-Investiture is in Spiritual). Nightblood's no different. Here's a question for you: why would Odium need a template? Nightblood is just a very heavily Invested piece of metal, commanded to Destroy (Evil). Why would Odium not know how to do that

This isn't a court of law or a thesis.  I'm stating an idea to be extrapolated on, really just hoping someone would take it in a direction that would make for fun discussion.  It resulted in a set of posts that reiterate the same "Odium can kill Shards, why not Heralds" arguments.  You've taken it upon yourselves to prove my wild speculation wrong.  The only person, it seems, who you have to convince is me.  And you haven't.   If there's burden of proof in your endeavor, it's on you.

I get it, you don't agree.  Nightblood isn't an especially new thing.  Odium killing a Herald was just plan B and he actually could have done so at any time in the past several thousand years of Oathpact and chose not to.  After all, he messed up three or more Shards already, so why would he need help messing up whatever he wants to?  (Nevermind him being stuck on Roshar for thousands of years while failing to actually fully destroy Honor or even send Its holder to the afterlife) You really don't have to reiterate those things with different phrasing again.

In any case, I have no real proof.  There is no proof of anything regarding what we're talking about.  It's all edges of the story stuff.  So I'm probably wrong.  It's still fun to speculate.

Nightblood is a completely unique entity.  His killing of a Fused was a new thing, much how the killing of a Herald was a new thing ("What is this death?")  If Odium knew how to permanently kill Heralds, he would have done so thousands of years ago...or at least done so once Honor was put out of commission.  He didn't kill a Herald until after the sword that lives killed a Fused.  There's narrative significance in those two actions.  A sword that you can't touch directly or it will de-Invest you kills a cognitive shadow.  A few scenes later, a new knife that can't be wielded by a Fused is used to kill another Cognitive Shadow.

That's the extent of my "proof".  

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I believe Odium was not on Roshar when Tanavast finally died. Likely the plans for the dagger was always present but could only be utilized this particular Desolation.

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11 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

The 'Edgedancer-Fused' would've taken the aluminium regardless

Yes, but you haven't explained how they knew the sheath is aluminum. It's just a sheath, and the only main clue which could possibly point to it being aluminum is that it's silvery in color. Also, aluminum, canonically from what Brandon has been saying, may not be an actual viable defense against shardblades. See here: 

Also keep in mind that at the time of the Aharehtiam 4000 years ago, there were practically no dead shardblades, so guards for the shardblades that we see now were likely non-existent, and they're probably not aluminum anyways. Furthermore, you're assuming that using aluminum to defend against shardblades is some sort of standard practice that the Fused engage is, when we haven't actually seen any hint that that is the case. 

10 hours ago, Leuthie said:

or at least done so once Honor was put out of commission.  He didn't kill a Herald until after the sword that lives killed a Fused.  There's narrative significance in those two actions.

He didn't have any Fused on Roshar until now after Honor's death. Also, you're assuming that there might be a narrative significance, when in fact that there might not be. The weight assigned to Nightblood killing the Thunderclast is in fact far less than the weight assigned to Jezerien being killed, so there really isn't much of a link.

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29 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Yes, but you haven't explained how they knew the sheath is aluminum. It's just a sheath, and the only main clue which could possibly point to it being aluminum is that it's silvery in color. Also, aluminum, canonically from what Brandon has been saying, may not be an actual viable defense against shardblades.

Doesn't say it's canon (quite yet). There was that reference by Taravangian about star metal(?).

I guess I simply assume that the Fused had some knowledge of aluminium since its not an unknown metal on Roshar just rare? :huh: Unless they don't, then forget everything I said.

Edited by ScavellTane
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33 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

He didn't have any Fused on Roshar until now after Honor's death. Also, you're assuming that there might be a narrative significance, when in fact that there might not be. The weight assigned to Nightblood killing the Thunderclast is in fact far less than the weight assigned to Jezerien being killed, so there really isn't much of a link.

Nightblood exists because of this story.  It was created for the original Way of Kings.  BS wrote Warbreaker, in part, to provide some backstory for this particular McGuffin.  It's an extremely important weapon for this story, and maybe for the Cosmere as a whole.  I'll get the WOBs when I'm not posting from a phone.

The first point makes you sound confused.  Heralds have been available to be killed for 4000 years.  The presence of Fused only matters for my point: that Odium needed to see a Fused permanently killed to create a way to permanently kill Heralds.

As for the aluminum: I have no doubt that every heavily Invested being that's been around for 1000+ years can spot aluminum from beyond the horizon, knows its significance, and will covet it.  A Fused stealing a chunk of aluminum is expected and doesn't mean that anyone knew what Nightblood can do.

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45 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Nightblood exists because of this story.

Technically by the WoBs you're referring to, Vasher originated for this story. 

Quote

BlackYeti

In Words of Radiance, we have Vasher showing up... One of his aliases on Nalthis is Kalad, which is very similar to the name of one of the Heralds on Roshar. So I was wondering how far back this connection between him and Roshar goes.

Brandon Sanderson

It goes pretty far back, in fact when I wrote Way of Kings, the 2002 version; he was a main character and was Kaladin's swordmaster. I wrote Warbreaker to jump back and write out his backstory, Vasher's. So to me Warbreaker actually came after Way of Kings. But the connection goes back pretty far, further than you would first guess.

BlackYeti

Did he actually come from Nalthis and not Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm not going to actually answer that one-- Well I can answer that: yes he does come from Nalthis. It's pretty obvious that the way that the Breath's working, the reason he moved is because it's easier to get Stormlight than Breaths, and Stormlight can fuel being a Returned like him. And so yes, he was born on Nalthis. Becoming Returned without being born on Nalthis would be really hard.

source

I'm unaware of one that names Nightblood in that. 

48 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

The first point makes you sound confused.  Heralds have been available to be killed for 4000 years.  The presence of Fused only matters for my point: that Odium needed to see a Fused permanently killed to create a way to permanently kill Heralds.

And at every other opportunity for that to happen, Honor was still alive providing a direct feed for the o his Investiture. For all we know it could have been something that just wouldn't have worked before, if you managed to get past their ridiculously overpowered abilities. 

50 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

As for the aluminum: I have no doubt that every heavily Invested being that's been around for 1000+ years can spot aluminum from beyond the horizon, knows its significance, and will covet it.  A Fused stealing a chunk of aluminum is expected and doesn't mean that anyone knew what Nightblood can do.

I have plenty of doubts here. The entire point of choosing aluminum to do what it does is that Brandon wanted a material that was exceedingly rare naturally, but becomes fairly commonplace once a certain tech level is reached to act as a counter to the magics as they advance. 

In the past, aluminum should have been rare to a point that most people hadn't seen it. 

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Don't see why most people here are averse to the suggestion ?

It would fit nicely as far as i can see, there's nothing that can explain why Jezrien wasn't killed in the weeks between Kholinar's fall and the book's end, before then you can argue (weakly) that while the weapon existed Odium didn't have access to the Herald or didn't have anyone he could trust with the task until the Fused returned. We're talking about a guy who sent people to steal a gemstone no one knew about from a city he was ( as far as he knew ) a few hours from conquering, he doesn't strike me as the type to leave threats laying around at arm's reach.

As for the argument that Odium shouldn't need to see Nightblood in action to guess the ramifications of its power, well i'm just not buying it, we know nothing about the Oathpact and the powers that bind and animate both Fused and Heralds, it's not too hard to assume that as far as he knew those connections could not be broken, and so even if he already possessed the knowledge to create that weapon he may not have known it would have the effect it does on these particular victims.

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The only particularly useful thing for Odium that Nightblood would grant is, seemingly, the unique ability to actually Destroy Investiture across all three realms.  If he could do that I dont think he'd have needed to stash D&D's in the CR, and we wouldnt have the Dor to deal with. 

 

As to why he'd need to see Nightblood in action, the best (and it's not great, admittedly) argument I could make is the fallback that while the Shards are infinite their Hosts are not, so he might have needed his attention drawn to it specifically first.  Or he may have needed to actually experinece Nightblood's process first-hand (in the form of having his Invested Thundercast destroyed) before he could mimic the process himself; at the end of the day Nightblood is sourced in a different Shard and I have no problems with the idea that they'd need to experience a different shard's patterns/workings/magics before he'd be able to mimic them. He has access to the Spiritual Realm, but arguably only 1/16th of it and the Type IV awakening recipe might simply be elsewhere. 

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12 minutes ago, Quantus said:

The only particularly useful thing for Odium that Nightblood would grant is, seemingly, the unique ability to actually Destroy Investiture across all three realms.  If he could do that I dont think he'd have needed to stash D&D's in the CR, and we wouldnt have the Dor to deal with. 

Investiture can't be destroyed. Nightblood destroys the entity and converts it into base Investiture to be consumed... But it isn't gone. Just the thing that it made. 

The knife did not do what Nightblood does. Jezrien did not turn to smoke and get sucked in. It ripped something out of him, and he died. I belive that what it ripped away and what was stored in that gem, is the Investiture that held him as a part of the Oathpact, which resulted in him dying a regular death and passing beyond. The smoke from the wound itself was, again in my opinion, caused due to the mixing of the Investiture that it stole, and the investiture that the dagger is made of. 

That mixing of Investiture that resulted in the smoke is the only part I see as similar to Nightblood. The rest is some weird hybrid of hemalurgy and fabrials, ripping something out of his Spiritweb and holding it in a gemstone. 

On the black smoke being "mixed" investiture. 

Quote

Blightsong

How does corrupted investiture work, like Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, Nightblood. Again, this is a definition of what somebody feels is a corruption. For instance, there are spren that people would feel are corrupted. But that's corruption where the mixing of different Shards has changed things, and I think a lot of times when people say corruption, what they're meaning is the mixing of Shards' powers.

Blightsong

So is there a mixing of Shards' powers happening with Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

*smirks* RAFO. That's the natural question, I'm glad you asked it.

Blightsong

Ok, uhhh, so something similar is happening with Gavilar's sphere, right?

Brandon Sanderson

*contemplative silence* RAFO.

source

 

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6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Investiture can't be destroyed. Nightblood destroys the entity and converts it into base Investiture to be consumed... But it isn't gone. Just the thing that it made. 

Good point.  It makes me wonder how much it is changed by the process though.  Anything else that absorbes enough investiture just ascends to become the Shard it came from, but does that mean that if Nightblood, say, get stabbed into the Dor he would ascend and become one of those shards, or would he just be a more invested version of himself with...Unflavored(?) Investiture.

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The knife did not do what Nightblood does. Jezrien did not turn to smoke and get sucked in. It ripped something out of him, and he died. I belive that what it ripped away and what was stored in that gem, is the Investiture that held him as a part of the Oathpact, which resulted in him dying a regular death and passing beyond. The smoke from the wound itself was, again in my opinion, caused due to the mixing of the Investiture that it stole, and the investiture that the dagger is made of. 

That mixing of Investiture that resulted in the smoke is the only part I see as similar to Nightblood. The rest is some weird hybrid of hemalurgy and fabrials, ripping something out of his Spiritweb and holding it in a gemstone. 

On the black smoke being "mixed" investiture.

I hadnt really considered the significance of the black Smoke, thats interesting.  In functional terms I was was seeing the Odium blade as similar to Nightblood via the mechanism that it's converting the attacked entity directly into Investiture.  It's less comprehensive than Nightblood, Im guessing it's not attacking all three realms.  I took the Hemalurgy bit to be that it's affecting the Spirit-web directly the way Hemalurgy does, but where Hemalurgy is Frankenstein Surgery this thing was more of  shotgun blast (and Nightblood is a multi-realm explosive); all are manipulating the spirit-web, and violently.

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On 8/1/2018 at 1:13 PM, ScavellTane said:

Doesn't say it's canon (quite yet). There was that reference by Taravangian about star metal(?).

I guess I simply assume that the Fused had some knowledge of aluminium since its not an unknown metal on Roshar just rare? :huh: Unless they don't, then forget everything I said.

Hoid showed up with a cart full of aluminum and no one really knew what it was. At most, what we've heard of is that aluminum is rare and has value because it can only be soulcast. 

Quote

“Simple, but of aluminum, which can only be made by Soulcasting,” the man said to his boss. “Ten emerald.”
- Word of Radiance, Chapter 48

Though there has been indicated as some other things going on there, which could be a hint at it being more known in the past. 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So, I'm intrigued by aluminum, especially the fact that it can only be found by Soulcasting on Roshar. So, how was it discovered in the first place?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

...Did I say you can only get it through Soulcasting?

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

In the Shallan flashbacks, she has the pendant.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Don't take what she says at 100% truth.

source

 

On 8/1/2018 at 1:42 PM, Leuthie said:

The first point makes you sound confused.  Heralds have been available to be killed for 4000 years.  The presence of Fused only matters for my point: that Odium needed to see a Fused permanently killed to create a way to permanently kill Heralds.

And for 4000 years, Odium has had no agents on Roshar who could've implemented any plan to permanently kill the Heralds. We have yet to see any real agents of his which could've accomplished what was needed to make the dagger other than the Fused. 

On 8/1/2018 at 1:42 PM, Leuthie said:

As for the aluminum: I have no doubt that every heavily Invested being that's been around for 1000+ years can spot aluminum from beyond the horizon, knows its significance, and will covet it.  A Fused stealing a chunk of aluminum is expected and doesn't mean that anyone knew what Nightblood can do.

Why would being heavily invested make it easier to be able to see aluminum? Also, once again, nothing has indicated that aluminum was ever used in the past by the Fused in their fights. 

I also have one more major argument against your idea: Timeline. Assuming the sections with Moash are happening chronologically in-line with the other sections around it, Moash was handed the knife and commanded to kill Jezerien immediately after the battle. This means that Odium saw Nightblood kill a Fused and figured how to use that to kill a Herald, and had the Fused in Kholinar make the dagger in the time between Szeth's arrival and the end of the battle. While it's not unbelievable that Odium could've figured out the theoretical knowledge in that time span, I find it highly unlikely that a weapon which could enumerate some of Nightblood's abilities could have been constructed in that short a time frame. At the very least, the materials to make it would've had to have been gathered already. 

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You don't believe a Shard could build an invested knife with a gem in its hilt with the snap of a Spiritual finger?

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On 8/1/2018 at 2:34 PM, Calderis said:

Technically by the WoBs you're referring to, Vasher originated for this story. 

I'm unaware of one that names Nightblood in that.

I'm not really adding much to this discussion (although I find it highly interesting as a lurker) but here is a WoB that states that Nightblood also originated for this story.

Quote

Why did you put Nightblood in The Stormlight Archive?

Brandon Sanderson:

"Nightblood and Vasher were in the original version of the Way of Kings before I wrote Warbreaker. Warbreaker in a way was actually introducing those two characters I'd already created."

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/222-words-of-radiance-houston-signing/#e5615

Edited by shadowwisp
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On ‎29‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 9:43 PM, Calderis said:

And there was never an Everstorm prior because? 

He had an abundance of all of the necessary tools. Why didn't it happen during the desolations if all he'd needed was the highstorm to mimic? 

The Everstorm is also drastically different in function than the Highstorm. 

Previously the desolations were coming quicker and quicker. It is mentioned that the last two real desolations were less than a year apart. Odium may not have seen a need for the everstorm, as he was only a few desolations away from winning and time is not something Shards worry about. If the oathpact had been properly maintained, the final desolation would have come mere months from the previous one, and Team Honor would not have had time to rebuild. However because the Last desolation happend the way it did, Team Honor found a way to bring a big gap between desolations even if un-intentional. Odium knew he couldn't risk that again, hence created the everstorm to stop fused going back to braised.

Also once the Last desolation happened, his tools were getting removed i.e. the Unmade were getting captured, or somthing. He didn't have any Fused as they wer trapped on Braised. so it probably took him a long time to put the plan in mothing. I believe Knights Radiants breaking their bond, is possible part of that long term plan.

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@Magpro I agree with all of that. I was being facetious. I was just trying to state that the dagger does not necessarily need to be something brand new just because it was never used before.

 

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4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Magpro I agree with all of that. I was being facetious. I was just trying to state that the dagger does not necessarily need to be something brand new just because it was never used before.

 

I agree with that fact, hence i didn't say anything about the dagger.

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11 hours ago, Leuthie said:

You don't believe a Shard could build an invested knife with a gem in its hilt with the snap of a Spiritual finger?

I don't think Odium made the dagger. I'm fairly certain it was the Fused under his instruction. First of all, we've never seen a shard do anything like that. The only physical manipulation we've seen performed by the power of shards is the creation and rearrangement of Scadrial, and none of that involved the creation of physical matter, simply rearrangement of what was pre-existing, or the very slight things Ruin did where he affected written texts. Nothing on the scale of creating a highly complex invested object.

Quote

Questioner

Can Odium or any other [Shards] edit text like Ruin could? ...Or is that a special Ruin thing.  

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible for others as well. The trick about it is, [Ruin] saturated everything on Scadrial in a way that not all Shards saturate their planets.  

Questioner

Okay, what do you mean "saturate"?

Brandon Sanderson

Creating it, does that make sense? And so this was partially an aspect that everything on that planet, every atom was, y'know, had him in it... I mean he didn't create the atoms, let's say that, but yeah... The whole planet existence and particularly the people on it are [Ruin], attuned to [Ruin].

source

Secondly, any sort of direct manipulation like that, which I'm sure is possible by a shard, I think would require an extension of his being which he cannot or will not do. There's a reason he isn't directly interfering with events on Roshar and is forced to act through human, singer, and spren agents instead. Either whatever Honor did is preventing him from directly acting, or to do so would involve making him vulnerable to Cultivation and actions she might performed, a position he would be unwilling to put himself in.

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