Nightblood Taught Odium How To Kill Heralds

[Leuthie]

Nightblood killed a Thunderclast.  The Thunderclast's friends assumed it would come back like usual.  It didn't.

Fused: "How the heck did that sword permanently kill Frankie? Aren't we impossible to permanently kill?"

Odium: "I betcha that would work on a Herald!  Here's this weird knife.  Don't touch it.  Give it to that new human that seems to like us and have him kill Jezrien with it."

Fused: "Sure boss.  Sucks about Frankie, though."

Evidence:

Spoiler

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

My question is not really a question, it's more of a theory. How Odium keeps the Fused around is more if he has them tied to his essence, so it's like he's essentially fishing them out of the Spiritual Realm and since their minds are left behind in the Cognitive Realm and their minds are *inaudible* damaged, because their spirits are separated and it just pulls them back.

I'm *inaudible* convinced Nightblood did kill the thunderclast, because Nightblood consumes all investiture, that's something I asked you back at Barnes and Noble a couple years ago, during Christmas and you said your soul is investiture. So my thought is, that thunderclast isn't coming back any time soon.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

You are correct on that one.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

When I saw that, my thought was, "Yep, It's dead." Other people were like, "I don't know, will it come back?" Nope.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I'll tell you this. They have not run into something like this before, and there will be ramifications of what happened there.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

That is fun to know.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

If you are used to death having no consequence, and suddenly your friend vanishes forever...

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah I, know I already thought of that. They're going to fight over Nightblood.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Mmm.

 

[CalaCrisp88]

It's not impossible that Nightblood inspired the idea, but I doubt his killing actually "taught" Odium's forces how to do it. Some pretty wacky stuff happened at Nightblood's creation, so I don't know that simply seeing it in battle would teach Odium how to create something like it. Also, imo, there wasn't enough time between Thaylen and Jezrien for Odium to create a weapon like that, and have it work exactly as intended, simply by trying to imitate another shard's weapon. If it was brand new, something could easily have gone wrong. It felt like Odium had had his blade in store for quite some time already.

Edited July 28, 2018 by 8giraffe8

[Leuthie]

Inspired.  Taught.  Tomato.  Tomahto.

There is a reason BS decided to have Odium kill his first Herald AFTER the alien life sucking sword killed his first unkillable.

You don't think a Shard, with full access to the timeless Realm of Spirituality, can get a process correct after seeing it used once?  Hell, Odium made a blade that works BETTER than Nightblood: No leaking black stuff (probably the purpose for the gem).

Nightblood did what Odium considered impossible: removed one of the entities trapped by the Pathpact from Existence.  Once he saw it was possible, he put it into practice.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Leuthie

[Calderis]

Odium has Splintered Shards and ripped the entirety of two of them from the Spiritual and forced them into the Cognitive Realm on Sel. 

I don't understand why he would need to see Nightblood work for this. 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Calderis

[Leuthie]

By your logic he shouldn't be stuck on Roshar at all. 

We don't understand the Oathpact.  We don't even have the complete what, much less the why or how.  As far as Odium understood, all of the participants were permanently stuck in their cycles.  Thousands of years had proven that true.  Then came Nightblood...

Edited July 29, 2018 by Leuthie

[Calderis]

And by your logic, the Everstorm should have needed an example to be copied from. 

[NoiseSpren]

From highstorm and Scandrialan mist?

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

As far as Odium understood, all of the participants were permanently stuck in their cycles.  Thousands of years had proven that true.  Then came Nightblood...

Actually, just prior to the battle Odium threatens one of the Fused that if he doesn't fall into line, he'll withdraw the power that keeps him alive. They're clearly kept around by a process Odium understands and is chosing to maintain. Also, Hoid's discussion of what Odium would do to him if he was caught tells us that Odium already knows how to damage souls beyond repair. There's absolutely nothing about this that requires knowledge of Nightblood.

Also, Brandon has described the dagger that killed Jezrien as using similar fundamentals to hemalurgy, which is not the same as what Nightblood does to Investiture.

[Leuthie]

Hemalurgy is piercing a Physical form with an object to transfer a piece of Spirit Web between the object and the Spirit Web associated with that Physical form.  Piercing with an uninvested object pulls the piece if Spirit into the object.  Piercing with an object Invested with a piece of Spirit Web transfers that piece to the Spirit Web of the Physical form.  Intent and body location are paramount.

There are so many fundamentals going on with that process (and it's probably much more complicated than my simple explanation), that that quote amounts to a non-answer.  B.S. often uses the phrase "wiggle room" when presented.  Yes, there are fundamentals shared between the Herald killing knife and hemalurgy.  Just as there are fundamentals shared between shardblades and hemalurgy: piercing a Physical form to directly affect the Spiritual.

If Odium could kill Heralds prior to the ending of Oathbringer, why hasn't he and why is he starting now?

Odium can kill his Fused at will.  I have no doubt Honor could kill the Heralds at will (when Honor was alive).  But ONLY Odium could kill the Fused, and ONLY Honor could kill the Heralds.  Nightblood showed Odium how to get around an imposed restriction (what would an Oathpact be if not a set of imposed restrictions?)

[Leuthie]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

And by your logic, the Everstorm should have needed an example to be copied from. 

It had one (the Highstorm), and took a pretty long time and convoluted set of circumstances to create.  The death of a King, a 6 year war, the targetted effect of the Thrill, a corrupted spren, a set of Listeners willing to bring back their gods, despite knowing how horrible they were, etc.  Basically everything that happened in WOK and WOR was a result of Odium setting out to create the Everstorm.  

Odium has restrictions and getting around them takes a lot of tools and planning.  Nightblood is a new tool that can change a lot of plans.

[Calderis]

And there was never an Everstorm prior because? 

He had an abundance of all of the necessary tools. Why didn't it happen during the desolations if all he'd needed was the highstorm to mimic? 

The Everstorm is also drastically different in function than the Highstorm. 

[Leuthie]

Do we really have an answer to why the True Desolation is starting now?

Wait, how does not implementing an Everstorm show that Nightblood didn't inspired Herald killing blade?  

[Nathrangking]

@LeuthieIt simply makes no sense to me that Odium would try to do something like this before now. I do not think that Odium who as @Calderis said "has Splintered Shards and tipped the entirety of two of them from the Spiritual and forced them into the Cognitive Realm on Sel" would need Nightblood at all. Odium would never have had a reason to kill a herald as it would not help him to do so. His plans would not be furthered by acting this way before now What would he gain by killing them? The recent set back in Thaylen city made it necessary for him to take drastic steps. As to why now one can only speculate though fortune and Dalinar could have something to do with it. I agree with @8giraffe8, I doubt seeing a thunderclast turn to smoke would give Odium a knowledge to suddenly create a blade to kill heralds. Nightblood is also weird so doing something like that may not be possible again.

 

[Spoolofwhool]

4 hours ago, Leuthie said:

If Odium could kill Heralds prior to the ending of Oathbringer, why hasn't he and why is he starting now?

Possibly because previously, the Heralds were strong enough to actually prevent an attack of that nature from succeeding. Perhaps also Honor could've stopped it from succeeding as well, as they were directly connected to his power. There are a lot things different between now and four millennia ago when the Desolations last occurred. It's unlikely that one single element which has only had an impact in recent times at a single event would've had such a significant impact is unlikely. Also, for Nightblood to have fully inspired this, that means that whatever process was needed to make that knife was designed and implemented, with the knife constructed from whatever unknown materials it is constructed from, in an extremely small window of time.
 

[goody153]

Didn't Odium already know about how nightblood works even before.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So at the of [Oathbringer] how aware is Odium of what Nightblood is and can do?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Modestly. 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Taking the sheath, that kind of thing?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He knows. I would say more than modestly, he is well aware.

source

I highly doubt somebody as prolific as a splinter of endowment being around an important figure in Roshar(Nale) is something Odium wouldn't be aware of. 

3 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Do we really have an answer to why the True Desolation is starting now?

Wait, how does not implementing an Everstorm show that Nightblood didn't inspired Herald killing blade?  

It's probably because honor is dead. So Odium might feel like this desolation is like the desolation to seal his win. And the Everstorm probably just make things convenient. 

We don't enough about all the details of oathpact on why it still needs to end despite the everstorm kinda making the oathpact useless and why Odium is still stuck on Roshar

[Calderis]

3 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Wait, how does not implementing an Everstorm show that Nightblood didn't inspired Herald killing blade?  

You implied that Odium was only able to change things up and do something new because he learned from Nightblood. 

My point was that that dagger is not the only new thing. 

Everything about this desolation is different this time on both sides. Nightblood is just one more variable. 

Regardless, I think that the dagger is far more similar to hemalurgy in the way that it functions. 

[Leuthie]

13 hours ago, Calderis said:

You implied that Odium was only able to change things up and do something new because he learned from Nightblood. 

My point was that that dagger is not the only new thing. 

Everything about this desolation is different this time on both sides. Nightblood is just one more variable. 

Regardless, I think that the dagger is far more similar to hemalurgy in the way that it functions. 

Wait.  So because lots of things are different, Nightblood could not have been a direct influence for the creation of the knife?

 

14 hours ago, goody153 said:

Didn't Odium already know about how nightblood works even before.

I highly doubt somebody as prolific as a splinter of endowment being around an important figure in Roshar(Nale) is something Odium wouldn't be aware of. 

It's probably because honor is dead. So Odium might feel like this desolation is like the desolation to seal his win. And the Everstorm probably just make things convenient. 

We don't enough about all the details of oathpact on why it still needs to end despite the everstorm kinda making the oathpact useless and why Odium is still stuck on Roshar

Your quote is from after Oathbringer.  So yeah, he knows about Nightblood after Oathbringer.  Did he know what Nightblood could do to the Fused prior ti Nightblood actually doing it? Knowing Nightblood is there and directly watching it kill what you thought only you could kill are two different things.

And Honor has been dead a long time. Nightblood just showed up and just caused the first permanent Fused death in a few thousand years. Soon afterward, Odium comes up with something that kills a Herald.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Leuthie

[Calderis]

18 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Wait.  So because lots of things are different, Nightblood could not have been a direct influence for the creation of the knife?

Ok. You said that because the knife had never happened before, that it had to be because of Nightblood. 

I pointed out how other things have also changed. 

So no, it doesn't say that Nightblood "could not have been," but you've provided no evidence for why he is. 

We know that, be it through a Kandra or some other means, there is hemalurgy present on Roshar, and the mechanics of the knife seem far more similar to that. So much so that some in world scholars would refer to it as hemalurgy. 

Quote

kalamitous_emoashions [PENDING REVIEW]

Have we seen any evidence of Hemalurgy on Roshar? And, as sort of an addendum, given the end of Oathbringer, was what happened to Jezrien Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There are certain cosmere philosophers that would count it. I would divide it as two separate things that are using similar fundamentals... I wouldn't call it myself, but there are people who would disagree with me in-world. Have we seen evidence? I would say no evidence that is easily-- easy to pick out.

kalamitous_emoashions [PENDING REVIEW]

But it's there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, there are people with Hemalurgy who have been to Roshar. I'm pretty sure they've been on-screen.

source

So it's not a matter of "Nightblood couldn't have been an influence." It's a question of evidence to support in what way the two are similar. 

[Argel]

Honor is dead. Plan A was to trick Dalinar into becoming Odium's Champion. Now we're onto plan B. Or maybe Plan C or D, or X given that Odium didn't expect Dalinar to pull off what he did. But I think we're seeing Odiu making his next big move and Cultivation's counters to that. I don't see why Nightblood directly factors into that. For all we know, killing the Heralds was part of the current plan. And if not, it is likely part of a contingency plan that Odium has also been working on for a long time. I doubt Odium is so arrogant to not have something for a backup plan. Unless his future sight is unreliable, like Renarin's. You'd think he would be aware of that, though that brings up an interesting idea -- what if Cultivation has tainted future sight in the Roshar system?

[Spoolofwhool]

7 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Your quote is from after Oathbringer.  So yeah, he knows about Nightblood after Oathbringer.  Did he know what Nightblood could do to the Fused prior ti Nightblood actually doing it? Knowing Nightblood is there and directly watching it kill what you thought only you could kill are two different things.

Considering that the Fused knew to use Nightblood's sheath as a defense against it, I think it's likely that Odium knew of Nightblood's capabilities in advance. Therefore, actually seeing what he did to to the thunderclast likely had no effect on his overall plan. 

[goody153]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Considering that the Fused knew to use Nightblood's sheath as a defense against it, I think it's likely that Odium knew of Nightblood's capabilities in advance. Therefore, actually seeing what he did to to the thunderclast likely had no effect on his overall plan. 

Yeah this is what i thought as well. The fused who fought Szeth clearly knew what he/she was facing as that fused stole the aluminum cover and used it to block. 

[ScavellTane]

The thing is aluminium works against all investiture. She may not have known of Nightblood specifically but shardblades in general.

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

The thing is aluminium works against all investiture. She may not have known of Nightblood specifically but shardblades in general.

If she'd just used it to block I'd agree here, but she took it and ran. It seemed like she knew Nightblood would take care of Szeth on its own without it. 

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, ScavellTane said:

The thing is aluminium works against all investiture. She may not have known of Nightblood specifically but shardblades in general.

How would they have known the sheath is aluminum or that generally it was able to block Nightblood in some way? There was definitely certainty there, if not the Fused is just dumb for trusting that a completely unknown piece of equipment might be able to block a weapon which has shown itself capable of annihilating a thunderclast in a single attack? Under the premise that they knew nothing about Nightblood before that battle, they would have no way of knowing if the sheath actually was capable of containing Nightblood's power, instead of just being a sheath for what could presumably be a well-designed weapon which was capable of shutting itself off. 

Along with what Cal said, it's pretty clear they knew about Nightblood and fight someone wielding him. Either way, we know by WoB that Odium knew about Nightblood and it would make sense for him to have warned the Listeners that there was a possibility of Nightblood appearing. 

[ScavellTane]

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

If she'd just used it to block I'd agree here, but she took it and ran. It seemed like she knew Nightblood would take care of Szeth on its own without it. 

Her priority was the ruby. The sheath helped in getting away from the only effective pursuer.

Quote

How would they have known the sheath is aluminum or that generally it was able to block Nightblood in some way? There was definitely certainty there, if not the Fused is just dumb for trusting that a completely unknown piece of equipment might be able to block a weapon which has shown itself capable of annihilating a thunderclast in a single attack? Under the premise that they knew nothing about Nightblood before that battle, they would have no way of knowing if the sheath actually was capable of containing Nightblood's power, instead of just being a sheath for what could presumably be a well-designed weapon which was capable of shutting itself off. 

Along with what Cal said, it's pretty clear they knew about Nightblood and fight someone wielding him. Either way, we know by WoB that Odium knew about Nightblood and it would make sense for him to have warned the Listeners that there was a possibility of Nightblood appearing. 

I would think that a bad guy would not share information about a threat to himself to his underlings. Odium doesn't necessarily need to tell the Fused that Nightblood is dangerous beyond it being a shardblade.

Knowledge of aluminium would likely be more wide known among the Fused considering their opponents. The sheath also stands out as it has no ornamentation and metallurgy in general is fairly limited pre-Recreance which I believe is where the Fused knowledge of metallurgy stands.

Edited July 31, 2018 by ScavellTane