[OB] Black Sphere Brandon Trolling

[+Child of Hodor]

Brandon has to be messing with Chaos when he tells him Gavilar's sphere might not hold an Unmade. Brandon has said multiple times that the black sphere would be explained in book 3. 

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MisCon 2018 (May 26, 2018)

#11

Chaos [PENDING REVIEW]

At JordanCon, you said that Gavilar's black sphere was something that..."It's what you expect it to be." Does that mean it's holding an Unmade?

Brandon [PENDING REVIEW]

Not necessarily. Voidlight can be trapped like Stormlight can. Unmade can be trapped like spren can. Does not mean that the sphere has an Unmade.

source

 

 

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)
#9

Questioner

The dark orb in the Stormlight prologue, is that native to Roshar? Or could it be from somewhere else?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm gonna explain what that is in the next book, so I'm going to RAFO that.

source

 

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)
#1

Brandon Sanderson

I'm just curious what the theories are. Book 3 the black sphere is-- Everyone who reads the books will know what the black sphere is by the end of Book 3.

  JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)
#4

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, we haven't canonized it. I'm going to say RAFO on the number, but it is what you think it is and what the third book implies that it is.

 

 

Brandon thinks we should know what it is after we read book 3. Well, in book 3 we had:

•  Shallan confront an Unmade, Re-Sephir, that was afraid of her because it had previously been trapped by a Lightweaver. (P.S. the art for this coppermind article is GORGEOUS!)  https://coppermind.net/wiki/Re-Shephir

•  Aesudan Kholin swallowed a gem that contained Yelig-nar and begins to emit black smoke. Odium later confirms that she did the same thing we see Amaram do. "But be warned, the queen at Kholinar tried this, and the power consumed her" Oathbringer chaper 118 https://coppermind.net/wiki/Aesudan_Kholin#cite_ref-Oathbringer-84-chapter_6-0
• At the battle of Thaylen City Odium tells Amaram to swallow a gemstone that can act as a vessel for Yelig-nar. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Yelig-nar

• The battle of Thalyen City end with Dalinar trapping an Unmade in a gem. As Dalinar does this he remembers Taravangian telling him how Rosharans trap spren in fabrials. In the WoR Epigraphs the Diagram refers to the Unmade as spren.  https://coppermind.net/wiki/Unmade#Nergaoul https://coppermind.net/wiki/Words_of_Radiance/Epigraphs#Chapter_81

• Epigraph for chapter 80 talks about imprisoning another Unmade Ba-Ado-Mishram and how this particular Unmade was able to provide Voidlight to the Parsh https://coppermind.net/wiki/Oathbringer/Epigraphs#Chapter_80

• In the epilogue Wit observes the Singers tearing through the rubble of the palace at Kholinar as if they were looking for something. Perhaps one of the other gems Gavilar had.

I feel like a major theme of book 3 was that Unmade can be trapped in gems and not so much "voidlight can be contained in a gem". There may be voidlight in the black sphere, but if so it's because the Unmade that is capable of supplying Voidlight is trapped in there. It could be a different Unmade, but it's not just some Voidlight in there. 

If Brandon doesn't feel like confirming or canonizing exactly what is in the black sphere, that's cool. But I will not be thrown off by the "Man who calls himself Taln"-esque misdirection . 

[Patrick Star]

I'm like 99% sure it's Ba-abo-mishram.

After seeing Nergaul or however you spell it trapped in the king's drop, Navani mentions that she saw that Gavilar had something similar.

It's definitely an unmade, there's really no other good explanation.

[Quantus]

I dont think so. The Unmade can only be captured in "Perfect Gems" which as I understand it are fairly obviously such, no?  I could see it having been another gem used to bond Yelig-nar since that's part of his individual shtick, but I dont see many scenarios where it makes sense to me for Galivar to have been running around with an imprisoned UnMade.    

 

Also, was not OB the first time we really saw Void-light in action? Id assumed that was all he was referring to, that and the corrupted voidspren idea that hadnt really been shown prior

[Calderis]

This whole thing bothers me. 

I think it should be an Unmade, but that that has it own problems. As @Quantus said, the Unmade require some exceptionally special gemstones. 

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Chaos [PENDING REVIEW]

Do you need a perfect gemstone to imprison an Unmade or a powerful spren?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah. Well...the stronger the spren, the better the gemstone needs to be. Those flaws in the crystal structure are going to lead to leaking if it's not. But an Unmade requires an extra-special level of perfection.

source

Nothing about Gavilar's gem was noted as remarkable beyond the the Voidlight itself... 

If it were merely a voidspren... The gem shouldn't have been glowing. We've seen a voidspren trapped, when Eshonai went into the storm to take Stormform. No glow. 

Which implies it's just Voidlight... But then where did it come from? And what did OB tell us to imply that in any way? 

None of the possible answers seem to fit with the info we have. 

[Quantus]

10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This whole thing bothers me. 

I think it should be an Unmade, but that that has it own problems. As @Quantus said, the Unmade require some exceptionally special gemstones. 

Nothing about Gavilar's gem was noted as remarkable beyond the the Voidlight itself... 

If it were merely a voidspren... The gem shouldn't have been glowing. We've seen a voidspren trapped, when Eshonai went into the storm to take Stormform. No glow. 

Which implies it's just Voidlight... But then where did it come from? And what did OB tell us to imply that in any way? 

None of the possible answers seem to fit with the info we have. 

Did we get a good look at either Yelig-nar gems that were swallowed?

[+Child of Hodor]

49 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I dont think so. The Unmade can only be captured in "Perfect Gems" which as I understand it are fairly obviously such, no?  I could see it having been another gem used to bond Yelig-nar since that's part of his individual shtick, but I dont see many scenarios where it makes sense to me for Galivar to have been running around with an imprisoned UnMade.    

 

Also, was not OB the first time we really saw Void-light in action? Id assumed that was all he was referring to, that and the corrupted voidspren idea that hadnt really been shown prior

Oathbringer chapter 121 When Dalinar gives Navani the "King's Drop", the ruby gemstone that trapped the Thrill, Navani says: "Dalinar, I've seen something like this before, much smaller, like a sphere. Gavilar made it."

Whether it is Voidlight or an Unmade the black sphere would be irrelevant to the plot if it was not a perfect gem. It's been over 6 years since we last saw it, whatever is in there would have seeped out of an anything less than a perfect gem. Ordinary gems lose their stormlight within weeks. Even if Voidlight seeps out at a slower rate and the gem was a really good one 6+ years is a really long time for a non-perfect gem to hold anything. 

They have access to Voidlight now, we see the fused use it. I don't know why the fused would be tearing apart the palace look for some more Voidlight and not want to tell Moash about it. 

“I guess I am curious, Ancient Singer,” Moash said. “Is there a reason you’re ripping apart this section of the palace? More than just to clear away the rubble?”
“Yes. But you do not yet need to know why.” Oathbringer Chapter 121

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Child of Hodor
Clarification

[Quantus]

2 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Oathbringer chapter 121 When Dalinar gives Navani the "King's Drop", the ruby gemstone that trapped the Thrill, Navani says: "Dalinar, I've seen something like this before, much smaller, like a sphere. Gavilar made it."

Whether it is Voidlight or an Unmade the black sphere would be irrelevant to the plot if it was not a perfect gem. It's been over 6 years since we last saw it, whatever is in there would have seeped out of an anything less than a perfect gem. Ordinary gems lose their stormlight within a week or two. Even if Voidlight seeps out at a slower rate and the gem was a really good one 6+ years is a really long time for a non-perfect gem to hold anything.

They have access to Voidlight now, we see the fused use it. I don't know why the fused would be tearing apart the palace look for some more Voidlight and not want to tell Moash about it. 

“I guess I am curious, Ancient Singer,” Moash said. “Is there a reason you’re ripping apart this section of the palace? More than just to clear away the rubble?”
“Yes. But you do not yet need to know why.” Oathbringer Chapter 121

 

Good catch with that Navani quote.  I dont think there's any need for that gem to still hold voidlight (if that was it's deal) six years later, the fact that Galivar had somehow obtained Voidlight at all prior to the Everstorm would be significant in it's own right, Id think.

[Calderis]

@Child of Hodor I disagree that a perfect gem would be needed in the case of Voidlight. The behavior that we've seen from it so far does not make me believe that it would leak in the same way.

Stormlight and Breath behave very differently. I don't expect Voidlight to match either of them. 

[+Child of Hodor]

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Good catch with that Navani quote.  I dont think there's any need for that gem to still hold voidlight (if that was it's deal) six years later, the fact that Galivar had somehow obtained Voidlight at all prior to the Everstorm would be significant in it's own right, Id think.

You might be right on that. It bothers me that she said "Gavilar made it". If Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured by the radiant strike force during the false desolation and that is what trapped the Parsh in slave form, then Ba-Ado-Mishram can't be trapped in something Gavilar made. 

Navani could be mistake or Gavilar lied to her, but let's assume she is correct, Gavilar made it. 

If Gavilar made it then it must not have contained any spren or Voidlight until after he made it. Without the Everstorm and before Taln broke there was only one reliable source of Voidlight on Roshar: Ba-Ado-Mishram. In order for Gavilar to fill up this gem he made during his lifetime with Voidlight he'd have to have access to Ba-Ado-Mishram and get her to fill it for him, maybe just by being near her. 

I always assumed Gavilar found those gems already filled. If he is making them and filling them himself that's something else. 

[Quantus]

18 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

You might be right on that. It bothers me that she said "Gavilar made it". If Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured by the radiant strike force during the false desolation and that is what trapped the Parsh in slave form, then Ba-Ado-Mishram can't be trapped in something Gavilar made. 

Navani could be mistake or Gavilar lied to her, but let's assume she is correct, Gavilar made it. 

If Gavilar made it then it must not have contained any spren or Voidlight until after he made it. Without the Everstorm and before Taln broke there was only one reliable source of Voidlight on Roshar: Ba-Ado-Mishram. In order for Gavilar to fill up this gem he made during his lifetime with Voidlight he'd have to have access to Ba-Ado-Mishram and get her to fill it for him, maybe just by being near her. 

I always assumed Gavilar found those gems already filled. If he is making them and filling them himself that's something else. 

Alternatively, he or somebody he was involved with was able to leave Roshar to obtain it, either in Shadesmar or fully reaching another rosharan planet that has access to Void-light.... 

[Patrick Star]

20 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

I always assumed Gavilar found those gems already filled. If he is making them and filling them himself that's something else. 

He probably lied and claimed he made it so as to not around suspicion.

[+Child of Hodor]

13 minutes ago, Patrick Star said:

He probably lied and claimed he made it so as to not around suspicion.

I would think it's really hard to make a "perfect gem" or one that Navani think looks just like a gem we know to be a perfect gem. Seems like a rare skill and Gavilar had a lot on his plate as king. Wouldn't think he became a master gem maker in his spare time. Maybe he made the glass sphere exterior that holds the actual gemstone and affixed the necklace to it. Like putting the Mona Lisa in a glass frame and saying I "made it". 

Even so, Brandon has successfully muddied the water and I am now buying into his "Man who calls himself Taln"-esque misdirection. I'm less confident that BAM is in that particular black sphere. 

Still think it could be BAM. Gavilar wants Szeth to make sure they don't get it when, if it's just Voidlight, they already have it because he gave them another gem earlier in the day. Maybe he regrets that now that they murdered him and he doesn't want them to have more of it. *Shrug*

[Patrick Star]

1 minute ago, Child of Hodor said:

I would think it's really hard to make a "perfect gem" or one that Navani think looks just like a gem we know to be a perfect gem. Seems like a rare skill and Gavilar had a lot on his plate as king. Wouldn't think he became a master gem maker in his spare time. Maybe he made the glass sphere exterior that holds the actual gemstone and affixed the necklace to it. Like putting the Mona Lisa in a glass frame and saying I "made it". 

Even so, Brandon has successfully muddied the water and I am now buying into his "Man who calls himself Taln"-esque misdirection. I'm less confident that BAM is in that particular black sphere. 

Still think it could be BAM. Gavilar wants Szeth to make sure they don't get it when, if it's just Voidlight, they already have it because he gave them another gem earlier in the day. Maybe he regrets that now that they murdered him and he doesn't want them to have more of it. *Shrug*

I think it's more that Gavilar wants whatever's in the gem to be used at some point.  If Navani, Jasnah, or the Parshendi got it, whatever's in there would never get out.

Remember, Gavilar wanted to start a desolation.  Hiding the sphere wouldn't be ideal, but it's better than having it go to someone who doesn't share his goals.

[Kaladin Zahel]

Is it possible that the black spheres held the/some Fused?

Holding an Unmade in a gem would seem to have to be the size of the one in the vault that Odium's forces attempted to steal.

So perhaps, the Fused were captured previously and these gems were a way to release them or be used to sacrafice a Fused to summon an Unmade from wherever they were trapped.

[RShara]

Well he was talking to jofwu at the time, so my belief is that whatever jof thinks it is, is what it is

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Jofwu [PENDING REVIEW]

Gavilar's black sphere. What was inside of it and how many does he have?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Well, it is what you think it is. And he had... yeah... He had access to several. Did we canonize this Karen?

Karen Ahlstrom [PENDING REVIEW]

*shakes head*

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, we haven't canonized it. I'm going to say RAFO on the number, but it is what you think it is and what the third book implies that it is.

source

 

More seriously, I think the highest probability is that it contains a voidspren or voidlight, at this point.

[Calderis]

20 minutes ago, RShara said:

More seriously, I think the highest probability is that it contains a voidspren or voidlight, at this point.

If it's not an Unmade, then it's either Voidlight, or a voidspren and Voidlight. 

Just like fabrials can still have spren in dun gems, voidspren in a gem shouldn't glow. 

/endgrump

[StrikerEZ]

You see, you're all wrong. We've only ever seen two of these black spheres, which are probably Odium's. There's a reason he hates everything now....

Seriously though, I have no idea what could be in these spheres. I don't like the idea of Unmade being in them, because how the hell would Gavilar have gotten two, maybe even more, of them? However, voidlight/voidspren just feels really weird an de kind of lame, considering how much they've been foreshadowed and theorized about.

[Yvainnie]

How do we know that Galivar’s sphere was not a perfect gem? Navani said she saw something smaller but where does it say that perfect gems have to be large? They have to be perfectly cut but size should not matter and besides even if it was not perfect gem it could be some sort of temporary prison for Unmade or may be not a prison at all but some sort of ship or storage.

[ScavellTane]

I'd say Gavilar made prototype perfect gems. He would not have the kind of precision the Radiants have, thus his 'perfect gems' would not compare to theirs.

[Toaster Retribution]

We know Gavilar had several spheres. So many that Brandon hasn’t canonized the number. Unless he split BAM into pieces, I doubt he has an Unmade. 

The idea that he somehow got to her to access the Voidlight is more interesting, and more likely. 

[ScavellTane]

Well he got the idea of perfect gemstones from somewhere. He might have had access to BAMs prison.

[Toaster Retribution]

That he found BAM is also likely, considering that she is theorized to be under Kholinar, which is why the listeners are digging around there (might also be why Kholinar was the first city they attacked).

[Rhapsody]

I thought the listeners were only digging in the palace complex and I always imagined them searching for the rest of Gavilars black spheres.

[ScavellTane]

I wouldn't have thought that the black spheres would have been stored in a place where digging would be required.

[Rhapsody]

Well since they never were found I always imagined the fused searching for hidden compartments in the walls or something like that because just tearing down the place was easier than searching.

But you have a point. They were probably digging because of some other reason.