[OB] Ishar bound Odium (kinda)

[Toaster Retribution]

When listening to the Shardcast on Heralds, I started to think about Ishar. One thing that interested me was the fact that he is called the Binder of Gods. That sounds very interesting. The podcasters brought up that it might be due to his involvement in the Oathpact, and that he bound Honor to an oath. But as the podcasters concluded, that sounds kind of unlikely. It feels wierd to have him be called Binder just because he made a deal with a Shard. Instead, my theory is that Ishar was the mind behind Odiums imprisonment. That would make more sense, to me.

But, there is evidence against this, namely the fact that the Stormfather says the following in Oathbringer:

Quote

AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION

So accoording to Stormfather, Honor and Cultivation are responsible for locking Odium up on Roshar. And that is probably true. After all, Ishar would be overpowered if he managed to lock a Shard to a planet all by himself. But I propose that he was involved in some way. Maybe through planning, or maybe in some other way. 

Something that backs my theory is that Honor most likely trusted Ishar. After all, he accepted a deal brought forth to him by Ishar, a deal that was incredibly important: the Oathpact. Honor knew he could trust Ishar. And Ishar knew how to contact Honor. One explanation for this is to assume that they had had contact with eachother earlier.

[RShara]

I don't know. I mean, the Fused predate the Heralds, because the Heralds are meant to bind the Fused. Why would Odium, who has very carefully kept from investing himself on any planet so far, create the Fused out of his investiture, if he were still free? His goal isn't to kill humans, it's to Splinter Shards. I don't see how the Fused would help in Splintering in any way. They seem more geared toward affecting mortal armies, rather than Shards.

[Nathrangking]

7 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

When listening to the Shardcast on Heralds, I started to think about Ishar. One thing that interested me was the fact that he is called the Binder of Gods. That sounds very interesting. The podcasters brought up that it might be due to his involvement in the Oathpact, and that he bound Honor to an oath. But as the podcasters concluded, that sounds kind of unlikely. It feels wierd to have him be called Binder just because he made a deal with a Shard. Instead, my theory is that Ishar was the mind behind Odiums imprisonment. That would make more sense, to me.

But, there is evidence against this, namely the fact that the Stormfather says the following in Oathbringer:

So accoording to Stormfather, Honor and Cultivation are responsible for locking Odium up on Roshar. And that is probably true. After all, Ishar would be overpowered if he managed to lock a Shard to a planet all by himself. But I propose that he was involved in some way. Maybe through planning, or maybe in some other way. 

Something that backs my theory is that Honor most likely trusted Ishar. After all, he accepted a deal brought forth to him by Ishar, a deal that was incredibly important: the Oathpact. Honor knew he could trust Ishar. And Ishar knew how to contact Honor. One explanation for this is to assume that they had had contact with eachother earlier.

It makes sense based on several things that we know: 1) Ishar was/ is the herald of the Bondsmiths. They are known to be capable of funky things as far as bonds are concerned and Dalinar as a bondsmith is known to be able to release Odium if he wants to. 2) He was the mastermind behind the knights radiant plan. This being so it seems safe to assume that he would be involved in something as major as dealing with Odium. 3) He seems to be the wisest among the heralds per Nale's deference to his opinion. I also believe that there may be a WoB which ascribes the plan to leave Taln to Ishar. Thus, it would seem if any Herald would be recruited to help form the oathpact it would be him.

[Toaster Retribution]

35 minutes ago, RShara said:

I don't know. I mean, the Fused predate the Heralds, because the Heralds are meant to bind the Fused. Why would Odium, who has very carefully kept from investing himself on any planet so far, create the Fused out of his investiture, if he were still free? His goal isn't to kill humans, it's to Splinter Shards. I don't see how the Fused would help in Splintering in any way. They seem more geared toward affecting mortal armies, rather than Shards.

But Ishar could have helped Honor and Cultivation before he was made a Herald. He appears to be quite old, so it is plausible that he was alive when Odium came, helped to bind him, and was made Herald later in his life. 

[Kramerfarve]

Didn’t stormfather say something like “you hold now the power Ishar once had” to Dalinar? 

Could this be more literal than we know, and Ishar is the first spren-bonding human and bonded the stormfather? (Before he was even a herald)

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Kramerfarve said:

Didn’t stormfather say something like “you hold now the power Ishar once had” to Dalinar? 

Could this be more literal than we know, and Ishar is the first spren-bonding human and bonded the stormfather? (Before he was even a herald)

Doubtful. The Nahel bond developed in mimicry of the Honorblades. The Heralds powers came first. 

[RShara]

8 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

But Ishar could have helped Honor and Cultivation before he was made a Herald. He appears to be quite old, so it is plausible that he was alive when Odium came, helped to bind him, and was made Herald later in his life. 

This is where I wish we had a detailed timeline of Roshar. I don't have anything to base this on, but my impression is that there was a decent amount of time between humans settling Shinovar, and them starting to invade the rest of the planet, then some more time before the Binding,  and then time for Odium to decide to make the Fused, and the Heralds deciding on the Oathpact. I'm not sure if Ishar would have lived that long.

[Toaster Retribution]

3 hours ago, RShara said:

This is where I wish we had a detailed timeline of Roshar. I don't have anything to base this on, but my impression is that there was a decent amount of time between humans settling Shinovar, and them starting to invade the rest of the planet, then some more time before the Binding,  and then time for Odium to decide to make the Fused, and the Heralds deciding on the Oathpact. I'm not sure if Ishar would have lived that long.

This is true, and my biggest problem with my theory. But first off, we don’t know the exact time (and Ishar wouldn’t really have to be alive for the human invasions, just for the Binding and the Oathpact). Furthermore, I doubt there were plus thirty-fourty years of constant war before the Heralds gave themselves up. And thirdly, it is unlikely, but possible, that Ishars lifespan for some reason was longer than normal humans. We know that there are several ways for that in the Cosmere, and Ishar is already incredibly wierd.

[ScavellTane]

I thought that Ishar being called Binder of Gods was because he bound the Radiant spren to the Oaths.

Quote

"But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by ScavellTane

[Quantus]

I think the Binder Of Gods is a reference to the fact that he is the prototypical Bondsmith which is itself a package of markedly godlike powers.  That being said I would not be surprised if he were also more directly responsible for the emergence of the Radiant Orders via that BondSmith fiddling.  Though it would be something that would have come after the cycle of Desolations began, I dont see it as predating Odium's binding.  

[Deathwielded]

I think Ishar being called the Binder of Gods could refer to him holding a binding agreement with Honor and Cultivation and maybe Odium.

Several peoples on Roshar consider Spren to be gods and we know the shards are considered higher gods.

I think Ishar proposed the deal that became the oathpact, Ishar feels like the idea man while Jezrian is the leader. (Ishar leading them to break the oathpact and leave Taln behind)

They both have access to the surge of adhesion thru their honorblades which is interesting as both are considered the leaders of the Heralds. (adhesion and Leardership is connected)

Ishar also helped form the Radiants, we don't know how involved he was with this it could be he used his "bondsmith" like powers to help create the first Nahel bonds? 

The Spren Mimicked the Honorblades and who better to help set it up then Ishar?

several good reasons why he might be called the Binder of Gods, it doesnt seem out of character to me like Herald of Luck

[+Child of Hodor]

I think he is the Binder of Gods because he founded the Oathpact and the Oathpact trapped the Fused on Braize. The Singers refer to the Fused as their Gods.

It could also be, as pointed out above, some on Roshar worship spren as gods. Ishar founded the KR and forced the surgebinders and their spren to get in line. Spren can't just give the powers to anyone anymore, they give more power with each oath spoken. WoR Ch. 42 Epigraph:

"But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

[Calderis]

I don't think Ishar changed the nature of the bond, I think he just forced the organization of the Radiants. 

Shards don't even shape their magic systems to that extent. A person doing it is beyond plausibility in my opinion. 

[Karger]

I think the fused or parshmen called him Binder of Gods for founding the Oathpact.  I know it is boring but simplest is most likely you know?(in the real world anyway who knows with Sanderson).

[Jace21]

For the simplest explanation is that his title "Binder of Gods" is that it was originally a title from the Dawnchant, almost certainly of Singer origin. If Ishar was the idea behind the Oathpact, as has been suggested, he would be the "Binder of Gods", having bound the Odiumspren and Fused (Singer "gods").

Maybe he pinoeered the "perfect gemstones trap Unmade" technique?

I just struggle to believe he could bind Odium or that merely having the idea would be enough to get the title.