[OB] Renewing the Oathpact: Let's Not.

[RShara]

Yeah I'm sure he'll leave some things hanging, since there is an overarching plot, but it won't be a cliffhanger like renewing the Oatrhpact would be.

I see the first arc as the battle for Roshar the planet. The fight against the Fused and Odium's "earthly" forces. Then the second arc is going to be the battle against Odium directly, to bind him in a way where he's harmless, or eliminate him as a threat, and will involve more of the greater Roshar system, the Heralds, the Shards, and who knows what else.

[Quantus]

4 hours ago, RShara said:

We're sure that the Stormfather said Odium is bound by Honor and Cultivation. I'm sure Odium could take back the investiture that makes up the Fused if he wanted to. And honestly...even if there are hundreds of Fused, that's such a tiny chunk of a Shard's power that it's not really going to hold him anywhere.

 

That's not really the same thing though, to my mind, as saying that the Oathpack has "no real effect on Odium."  By all indications the explicit purpose of the Oathpact was to bind Odium to the system, and that was accomplished via the Heralds. We even have WOB that the Oathpack was indeed part of what is trapping him, though not the direct cause (which I think is referring to how trapping his forces and investiture is what is in turn trapping him, as opposed to it being a more literal prison).

 

As to the Endowment comparison, she was only Invested in the people themselves in the form of Breathes, rather that the whole ecosystem or a whole race of Living Investiture in the form of Voidspren, which I think is key.  Though I would also be perfectly willing to accept that Endowment specifically maintains less connection to her granted Investiture because its intended as a more literal Gift, makign it traite unique to that Intent similar to how Autonomy seems to play by different rules on the topic of Hosts.

[Naurock]

2 hours ago, RShara said:

Yeah I'm sure he'll leave some things hanging, since there is an overarching plot, but it won't be a cliffhanger like renewing the Oatrhpact would be.

I see the first arc as the battle for Roshar the planet. The fight against the Fused and Odium's "earthly" forces. Then the second arc is going to be the battle against Odium directly, to bind him in a way where he's harmless, or eliminate him as a threat, and will involve more of the greater Roshar system, the Heralds, the Shards, and who knows what else.

How do you suggest Odium could be bound to be harmless? Find a way to reform Devotion, reform Honor and merge the three of them?

[RShara]

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

That's not really the same thing though, to my mind, as saying that the Oathpack has "no real effect on Odium."  By all indications the explicit purpose of the Oathpact was to bind Odium to the system, and that was accomplished via the Heralds. We even have WOB that the Oathpack was indeed part of what is trapping him, though not the direct cause (which I think is referring to how trapping his forces and investiture is what is in turn trapping him, as opposed to it being a more literal prison).

 

As to the Endowment comparison, she was only Invested in the people themselves in the form of Breathes, rather that the whole ecosystem or a whole race of Living Investiture in the form of Voidspren, which I think is key.  Though I would also be perfectly willing to accept that Endowment specifically maintains less connection to her granted Investiture because its intended as a more literal Gift, makign it traite unique to that Intent similar to how Autonomy seems to play by different rules on the topic of Hosts.

Now the first thing I want to point out is that Odium being bound to the Roshar system would almost certainly pre-date his creation of the Fused. Odium specifically doesn't want to invest his power anywhere and keep as much of his power under his personal control as he can. The reason I think this is because he would have no reason to create the Fused, which are basically meant to fight mortals, unless he had to. He has bigger fish to fry, and divesting that portion of his power isn't something that he would want to do, no matter how significant or insignificant.

This leads us to two possible conclusions:
1. The Fused don't take a significant amount of his investiture, which is what I posited in my post. So binding them affects him, yes, but not a huge amount in any case.

2. The Fused DO take a significant amount of his investiture, and so binding them binds him. I don't think that he would do this, because he still wants to save most of his active investiture to himself, to take on Cultivation when he's ready.

Endowment is far more invested in her planet than Odium is, from what I can tell.  She has millions of people living on Nalthis, and dozens of Returned. That's millions of Breaths. She has a perpendicularity somewhere on Nalthis, she has the Tears of Edgli that are named after her. She's intimately involved with the planet and the people. Nalthians are also naturally more invested than normal people. Not as invested as the Fused, but more than a normal Rosharan.

Braize is a lifeless, cold rock, inhabited solely by the Fused (and sometimes the Heralds). Even a few hundred Fused aren't going to compare to what Edgli has Invested in Nalthis. Assuming the voidspren also number in the hundreds or thousands, they still wouldn't compare to the millions of people on Nalthis.

 

The WoBs in question--I should probably put them in my OP.

Quote

Questioner

So Odium is trapped on a planet near Roshar. Now that Talenelat is no longer being bound wherever he's at, does that mean that Odium's imminence is--

Brandon Sanderson

Taln still is keeping to the Oathpact. So there is that. But [Odium's] being bound is greater than the Oathpact.

source

Quote

luke.spence (paraphrased)

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

source

Quote

Eric

For the second letter, Rayse is captured and cannot leave the system he inhabits, Roshar. Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else?

Brandon Sanderson

Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it.

source

So Brandon says that what binds Odium is greater than the Oathpact in the first one. In the second, he says that only the Heralds and Honor were part of the Oathpact, not Odium. In the third, the Oathpact is not a direct result of Odium not being able to leave the system. But it's a little part of it. Because the Fused Do take some of his investiture, and he wouldn't want to leave that behind. And as long as they are bound to Braize, the Fused can't fulfill the purpose that he made them for. So he's hindered in his goals.

At least, that's how I view those WoBs.

 

[Bigmikey357]

Basically Odium came to town to shatter Shards. He found a better way to do it; his other attempts were successful but ham-fisted. Honor and Cultivation somehow got him to play a high stakes game, some type of binding agreement. Honor's gambit was to create the Oathpact with the Heralds, Odium countered the gambit by creating the Fused. Or perhaps the other way around. Either way, the agreements made were a small part of the greater contest for Roshar between the Shards. The Oathpact is therefore independent of that greater struggle though related. If Honor had not instituted the Oathpact he still would have had to come up with something. What we do not yet know are the terms of the greater contest and what Cultivation's gambit was. That she had one is undeniable and I would not be surprised if it has been hinted at. We have Honor's Heralds and Odium's Fused. Cultivation's Dawnshards maybe?

[StrikerEZ]

10 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Basically Odium came to town to shatter Shards. He found a better way to do it; his other attempts were successful but ham-fisted. Honor and Cultivation somehow got him to play a high stakes game, some type of binding agreement. Honor's gambit was to create the Oathpact with the Heralds, Odium countered the gambit by creating the Fused. Or perhaps the other way around. Either way, the agreements made were a small part of the greater contest for Roshar between the Shards. The Oathpact is therefore independent of that greater struggle though related. If Honor had not instituted the Oathpact he still would have had to come up with something. What we do not yet know are the terms of the greater contest and what Cultivation's gambit was. That she had one is undeniable and I would not be surprised if it has been hinted at. We have Honor's Heralds and Odium's Fused. Cultivation's Dawnshards maybe?

The Oathpact was designed specifically to trap the Fused, so it had to have come after the Fused.

I don't think the Dawnshards were made by Cultivation. They were used to destroy Ashyn (somehow), so it's unlikely they'd were created to thwart Odium in some way. They could've been made by Cultivation if she and Honor had had some influence on the Rosharan system as a whole when they went to Roshar, but I doubt it.

[Calderis]

I'm fairly sure that all shards have influence in the entirety of the system they inhabit and are just stronger on their primary world, because of this WoB. 

Mistborn spoilers. 

Spoiler

Questioner

How far does Sazed's power actually extend?

Brandon Sanderson

It is mostly limited to his immediate sphere of influence, so the planet.

Questioner

But doesn't he move stars at the end?

Brandon Sanderson

No, he moved the planet. His solar system, he can definitely have influence on the solar system. But none of the other planets around Scadrial are inhabited.

source

 

[Bigmikey357]

Yea I thought after I wrote it that I got the order wrong. Fused likely came first since Rayse is the aggressor. But we know Cultivation helped, that she's in danger, that she's a target. Likely the same agreement that keeps Odium from her throat keeps her from stabbing him while he's occupied by other matters. The guys are using Shard-fueled surrogates, where's Culti's?

[Agent34]

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Yea I thought after I wrote it that I got the order wrong. Fused likely came first since Rayse is the aggressor. But we know Cultivation helped, that she's in danger, that she's a target. Likely the same agreement that keeps Odium from her throat keeps her from stabbing him while he's occupied by other matters. The guys are using Shard-fueled surrogates, where's Culti's?

Lift is important so perhaps she's Cultivation's champion.

[Quantus]

On the Fused, I dont think we can make any strong guesses about Odium's standard MO for attaching another Shard, we've only seen the distant aftermath on Sel, we dont know who is attacking Scadrial, and on Roshar our assumptions are being actively subverted in the story (#SoylentVoidbringers).  It would not be out of character for him to have been willing to Invest in forces with the intent of eventually just destroying them all himself and reclaiming his power. 

 

On the Dawnshards, help me out real quick timeline-wise, Do we know which era they were active in? 

I see Roshar's history as having 6 era's:

1. Pre-Shattering, Adonalsium times
2. Honor and Cultivation Early Days, Listener Times
3. Arrival of Humans with Odium
4. Switching of Fodder Sides (Fused from Listeners, Heralds from Humans).  Oathpact Times, Early Desolations
5. Emergence of Knights Radiant, Late Desolations
6. Post- Recreance

[Calderis]

22 minutes ago, Quantus said:

On the Dawnshards, help me out real quick timeline-wise, Do we know which era they were active in? 

I see Roshar's history as having 6 era's:

1. Pre-Shattering, Adonalsium times
2. Honor and Cultivation Early Days, Listener Times
3. Arrival of Humans with Odium
4. Switching of Fodder Sides (Fused from Listeners, Heralds from Humans).  Oathpact Times, Early Desolations
5. Emergence of Knights Radiant, Late Desolations
6. Post- Recreance

I see it similarly, but with a few finer points in the later portion, (and not posing the humans and Odium as a united force on arrival). 

1: Creation by Adonalsium (the Singers exist here) 

2: Arrival of the Honor and Cultivation (the Shards invest and alter the system) 

3: Destruction of Ashyn (Humans arrive on Roshar. Odium attempts to follow and is locked to Braize by Honor and Cultivation [speculation]) 

4: the Desolations (The Heralds are "born," spren create surgebinders and the Radiants are formed.) 

5: Post-Aharietiam (stability grows, the Knights and Singers still fight) 

6: Post-Recreance (the Rise of Vorinism and gender roles, culminating in the Hierocracy) 

7: Post-Sunmaker (slight cultural shifts that lead to the Roshar we know) 

 

Edited July 18, 2018 by Calderis

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

 not posing the humans and Odium as a united force on arrival

 

Was this not directly revealed in OB?  I thought that was the whole shtick, that the Humans where Odium's original Voidbringers.

[Calderis]

27 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Was this not directly revealed in OB?  I thought that was the whole shtick, that the Humans where Odium's original Voidbringers.

It was shown that the Singers believed this. The truth of that matter is open for debate. 

Quote

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

What was the order of the Shards coming to Roshar and changing allegiances? Did Humans come with Odium?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So... you're talking about on Roshar specifically? So, Odium had visited Roshar. The humans gave him more of an ear... The Dawnsingers would have considered him the god of the people who had come, but-- I mean, it wasn't like they necessarily brought him. He was capable of getting around before that. I mean, he did kinda come along with them, he was instrumental in what happened there.

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, but he was separate, and after Honor and Cultivation had really settled there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, he was after Honor and Cultivation had settled.

source

His coming at the same time does not mean he was their God. 

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

It was shown that the Singers believed this. The truth of that matter is open for debate. 

His coming at the same time does not mean he was their God. 

Huh.  So by that, while he had been there before, he did come (or come back) to Roshar at the same time as the Humans, and by that point he was able to get more followers among the Humans than the Singers, but the actual circumstances and/or motivation around the How and Why of the Human exodus from Ashyn are still fuzzy.

[RShara]

On 7/17/2018 at 4:16 PM, Naurock said:

How do you suggest Odium could be bound to be harmless? Find a way to reform Devotion, reform Honor and merge the three of them?

Sorry, I missed this.

I'm not sure, tbh. I think that either Odium will be Splintered, or they'll find a way to bind him safely, so that he can't affect any other worlds/people/spren/etc. Devotion, from Sel, is not likely to feature in SA, because then Brandon would have to explain where that's from, or people will need to read Elantris, and Brandon doesn't want that to be necessary yet. And Brandon already did the doubleshard thing so I don't think he'll use that as a conclusion again.

 

[Magpro]

I don't believe the Oathpact will be re-formed as oathpact is currently useless even if it is not broken. The fused don't go back to Braise, so Oathpact can't keep them there.

I feel the end of Arc 1 will see the oathpact totally broken, and either all the heralds die, killed or voluntary move on to aftelife. Arc 1 will probably see the conflict with the Parshendi concluded. Arc 2 will continue from Arc 1 but will be a different story line, probably take the fight to a Roshar System Level / Shard level. It may see a new shard formed, which will be defeat Odium at end of Arc 2. This could very well be a combination of Honor and Cultivation or re-forming of just Honor with a new Vessel. I am not sure if it will be Dalinar, I have a feeling it might be Rock.

[Naurock]

12 hours ago, RShara said:

Sorry, I missed this.

I'm not sure, tbh. I think that either Odium will be Splintered, or they'll find a way to bind him safely, so that he can't affect any other worlds/people/spren/etc. Devotion, from Sel, is not likely to feature in SA, because then Brandon would have to explain where that's from, or people will need to read Elantris, and Brandon doesn't want that to be necessary yet. And Brandon already did the doubleshard thing so I don't think he'll use that as a conclusion again.

 

But any splinter of Odium roaming around is bad for anyone (see Nergaoul/Ashertmarn any mindless Unmade). You would have to splinter him to such tiny fragments and scatter them so far apart that it cannot reform and gain sentience.

[Karger]

What about renewing the Oathpact in a limited way for a specific purpose?

[RShara]

57 minutes ago, Karger said:

What about renewing the Oathpact in a limited way for a specific purpose?

...like?

And still, probably not.

[Karger]

9 hours ago, RShara said:

...like?

You only get 10 years.  Then we come back?

[+Child of Hodor]

There may be a way to use it without the torture. Like sending the Jezrien knife to Braize. A Herald is there in spirit (literally ). 

I don't think it will be renewed in the normal sense, because it totally failed at what it was intended to do and it's too cruel to subject someone to. But it still exists and there may be a way to utilize that magic. 

 

[Scion of the Mists]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

You only get 10 years.  Then we come back?

Ten years of what?  

[Karger]

4 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Ten years of what?  

Fused not killing you

[RShara]

Because time is really easy to tell when you're being tortured nonstop?

Also

On 7/17/2018 at 0:08 AM, RShara said:

3. Per the Stormfather, the Fused no longer return to Braize, but float around in the Everstorm waiting to be reborn. A new Oathpact wouldn't bind them to Braize if they never return there in the first place.

Quote

THE FUSED DO NOT RETURN TO DAMNATION WHEN KILLED. THEY ARE REBORN IN THE NEXT EVERSTORM.

 

Edited April 1, 2019 by RShara

[Scion of the Mists]

17 minutes ago, Karger said:

Fused not killing you

But the Fused don't get sent back to Braize, they are reborn in the Everstorm.  The Heralds going back to Braize wouldn't accomplish anything.