RShara

[OB] Renewing the Oathpact: Let's Not.

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I have wondered if Book 5 would end with Dalinar or Kaladin asking the Heralds for 15 years, enough time to prepare, but not forget. 

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I've never been really happy with that theory either, and this post sums up part of why. I expect Odium to be dealt with in a more permanent way at least by the end of book 10.

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15 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

I have wondered if Book 5 would end with Dalinar or Kaladin asking the Heralds for 15 years, enough time to prepare, but not forget. 

That still leaves problems 1, 3 and 5 :D And 6, of course.

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I'm not sure most of the Heralds are in a fit state to make that decision even if it can be done without Jezrien.

Also, Taln deserves better.

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1 hour ago, RShara said:

3. Per the Stormfather, the Fused no longer return to Braize, but float around in the Everstorm waiting to be reborn. A new Oathpact wouldn't bind them to Braize if they never return there in the first place.

This to me is the biggest reason that I think any talk of the Heralds or the Oathpact doing something about the current situation are just pointless.

Kill all the Heralds you want, make new Heralds, make every man, woman and child on Roshar a Herald. It won't do anything because the entire point of the Oathpact has been bypassed. You can't trap the Fused on Braize anymore because they don't go to Braize anymore. They go to the Everstorm (Which is also where I believe Odium "is" too) and the Everstorm renews them. 

Right now, the Heralds are just a bunch of very expensive relics. They are not the solution to the current problem.

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For some weird reason the "radiants turning into herald" does while sounds poetic in a tragic sense of heroism. It also seems predictable in a story pov(which is saying something about how Sanderson writes his plot)

Besides isn't the whole point of the oathpact was to stop the fused from returning. How does that work with the everstorm existing ? I don't think the known function of it works anymore, maybe it's secret function(since Odium is still trying to kill heralds) related to his prison.

The oathpact is kinda flawed solution to begin with. It merely meant to delay and there might be other fundamentally better solutions to Odium

1 hour ago, CrazyRioter said:

Also, Taln deserves better.

I mean if we're gonna be onboard with the renewing of Oathpact thing why not as well put the best of the profession on field xD

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I can see it being an ending to the first src. It would work a little like Avengers: Infinity War where (SPOILER):

Spoiler

The villain wins

The ending to that movie might be my favorite movie ending ever. It was incredibly effectful. I wouldn’t say no to something similar from SA. 

Then, of course, the Oathpact is useless nowadays, so it will be pointless unless the Everstorm is stopped somehow, which may or may not be possible. If it is, I can see that being the ending to book 5. The KR win by stopping the Everstorm, but lose in that they still haven’t bested Odium, and thus need Heralds. It would be a badass ending if ten people, a mix of old and new Heralds, swore an oath, and died for Roshar.

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Thank you for writing up on this @RShara. This is quite similar to how I feel about the idea of a second Oathpact and our current batch of Radiants becoming the next Heralds. 

From the WoB's that you have listed it would appear that book 5 will have a solid conclusion to the arc rather than a cliffhanger. It is entirely possible that the threat of Odium is dealt with by book 5 with new problems arising in the second half of books. Odium has been built up as a lean, mean splintering machine so it would be a big twist if he were not the villain in the second half of books as well. 

One of the reasons why I believe a second Oathpact will not be made as resolution for the first stormlight arc is because Brandon is a big Wheel of Time fan. If you have read Wheel of Time then you will know that certain events play out in a constant cycle. I don't think Brandon would write his magnum opus series in such a similar way as another fantasy powerhouse. 

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My greatest problem with this possibility is the wording:

REnewing, REmaking, REstoring - whatever you call it, for me this is REgression, not PROgression.

Old ways, old mistakes in contrary to innovation, orginality, novelty.

Is it even possible to go back?

There were so many changes, like - as said above - the Everstorm.

Whatever happened with Jezrien - we just have 9 Heralds more or less living at the moment.

Nale has switched sides.

All of the Heralds are now broken. Until Taln was left alone on Braize, he was the "last man standing".

The Parshendi/Listeners are starting to enter the system - and I believe this possible because the Oathpact has lost its fuction.

Odium has agreed to the fight with champions.

Last, but not least - Honor is dead.

Getting the knowledge of the past is good as long as you also try to avoid past mistakes and especially in OB - with the novelty of Renarin or Venli - we have gotten the base of a new pacing.

Edited by hypatia
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6 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I'm not sure most of the Heralds are in a fit state to make that decision even if it can be done without Jezrien.

Also, Taln deserves better.

I would like to see Taln form a new shard, not Dalinar. 

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1 hour ago, ZenBossanova said:

I would like to see Taln form a new shard, not Dalinar. 

An insane Vessel doesn't sound too good...

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8 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

An insane Vessel doesn't sound too good...

Taln is the most broken, and yet the most unbroken of the Heralds. He doesn't currently have much of a mind, but he is perfect for his mind to be rebuilt. He is the most honorable, and the only one who didn't rebel against the Oathpact. Unlike the others, he is in a position to be Cultivated. 

He isn't ready for it yet, but he has 7 books to go. 

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6 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I can see it being an ending to the first src. It would work a little like Avengers: Infinity War where (SPOILER):

  Reveal hidden contents

The villain wins

The ending to that movie might be my favorite movie ending ever. It was incredibly effectful. I wouldn’t say no to something similar from SA. 

Then, of course, the Oathpact is useless nowadays, so it will be pointless unless the Everstorm is stopped somehow, which may or may not be possible. If it is, I can see that being the ending to book 5. The KR win by stopping the Everstorm, but lose in that they still haven’t bested Odium, and thus need Heralds. It would be a badass ending if ten people, a mix of old and new Heralds, swore an oath, and died for Roshar.

I can understand that, but there're differences. First, IW is a movie, which allows a lot more latitude in terms of cliffhangers. More specifically, it's a Marvel movie, and there's pretty much always a cliffhanger or hook to get you to watch the next one. Brandon doesn't need that. His books will bring readers back because of his name and his writing, not just because they need to see how the cliffhanger works out.

And ending an entire series on a cliffhanger to me is a really bad idea. A book, sure, sometimes. A series? No.

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36 minutes ago, RShara said:

I can understand that, but there're differences. First, IW is a movie, which allows a lot more latitude in terms of cliffhangers. More specifically, it's a Marvel movie, and there's pretty much always a cliffhanger or hook to get you to watch the next one. Brandon doesn't need that. His books will bring readers back because of his name and his writing, not just because they need to see how the cliffhanger works out.

And ending an entire series on a cliffhanger to me is a really bad idea. A book, sure, sometimes. A series? No.

First off, I think Marvel can sell movies based on the Marvel brand and the characters. They don’t need cliffhangers to get people to see the movies.

And I agree that a new Oathpact would be a terrible ending to the series. SA5 won’t really be an end to a series though, it’s more like a mid-season break. I feel it could work fine with the proper foreshadowing. Depending on how he writes it, it might not even be a cliffhanger.

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2 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

First off, I think Marvel can sell movies based on the Marvel brand and the characters. They don’t need cliffhangers to get people to see the movies.

And I agree that a new Oathpact would be a terrible ending to the series. SA5 won’t really be an end to a series though, it’s more like a mid-season break. I feel it could work fine with the proper foreshadowing. Depending on how he writes it, it might not even be a cliffhanger.

I cited some of the instances where he said it was two series.

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35 minutes ago, RShara said:

I cited some of the instances where he said it was two series.

He says that it might be seen as two series. That means that it can be seen as one series as well. 

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Honestly I tend to think that Odium is going to get away one way or the other, so even if they try to get the Oathpact back I dont think it would work.  But I dont think the actual characters would do it that way, I think they are going to eventually try something with more direct involvement of Cultivation, rather than the mroe purely Honor Solution that way the Oathpact; I think Cultivation will help the Oathpact and the Radiants Evolve

 

Side question, but are we sure that #1 is true?  I thought that one directly caused the other, that having his huge, heavily Invested armies trapped in the system is itself what was Trapping him, because in many ways he is that Investiture.

EDIT: I see what you are saying. It can be two series in the sense that the first is a definitive arc that is it's own story and the next continues on where that one left of with our same cast, etc. like a Season 2 continuation.  OR, it could be a much harder break that all but starts from scratch on Roshar with whatever pieces are left after the dust settles, new Story of new Heroes more like the Scadrial Era's (narratively if not the time jumps).

 

 

Edited by Quantus
replies while typing
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Whole heartedly agree. No more renewing the Oathpact! Take the upvote, hope it's purple soon!

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16 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Honestly I tend to think that Odium is going to get away one way or the other, so even if they try to get the Oathpact back I dont think it would work.  But I dont think the actual characters would do it that way, I think they are going to eventually try something with more direct involvement of Cultivation, rather than the mroe purely Honor Solution that way the Oathpact; I think Cultivation will help the Oathpact and the Radiants Evolve

 

Side question, but are we sure that #1 is true?  I thought that one directly caused the other, that having his huge, heavily Invested armies trapped in the system is itself what was Trapping him, because in many ways he is that Investiture.

 

We're sure that the Stormfather said Odium is bound by Honor and Cultivation. I'm sure Odium could take back the investiture that makes up the Fused if he wanted to. And honestly...even if there are hundreds of Fused, that's such a tiny chunk of a Shard's power that it's not really going to hold him anywhere.

Think of - Warbreaker Spoilers

Spoiler

The thousands and millions of Breaths on Nalthis, and Endowment is in no danger of running out of investiture. The Divine Breath is probably similar to how much investiture a Fused has, so about 2000 Breaths. The God King has over 50k, there are another 20 or 30 Returned running around (at least). There are other people with thousands of Breaths, and there are millions of people around with at least one.

 

Quote

I see what you are saying. It can be two series in the sense that the first is a definitive arc that is it's own story and the next continues on where that one left of with our same cast, etc. like a Season 2 continuation.  OR, it could be a much harder break that all but starts from scratch on Roshar with whatever pieces are left after the dust settles, new Story of new Heroes more like the Scadrial Era's (narratively if not the time jumps).

Yeah that's what I'm thinking of. It compares to me, like Era 1 and Era 2 of Mistborn, rather than Book 1 and Book 2 of a series.

Edited by RShara
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@RShara I realize my latest post might have sounded kinda stupid. Let me rephrase it:

The fact that Brandon says that it ”can be considered” two series ”if you prefer” implies that it is also possible to consider it one series. Otherwise he would have stated plain and simple that it is two different series, not that it can be considered such if you want to. 

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It's not just the separation of the arcs from a story perspective, you also have to consider the real-life time separation.  Brandon has a bunch of books slated in between the arcs that have gotten put on hold due to his commitment to finishing Arc 1, so there is almost certainly going to be a large time gap between the releases of Books 5 and 6.  Ending Arc 1 on a down note or a cliffhanger, and then waiting 5-10 years to release the next books would be a big mistake.  

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49 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@RShara I realize my latest post might have sounded kinda stupid. Let me rephrase it:

The fact that Brandon says that it ”can be considered” two series ”if you prefer” implies that it is also possible to consider it one series. Otherwise he would have stated plain and simple that it is two different series, not that it can be considered such if you want to. 

Okay, I see what you mean. But I really think he says more that it's two series, than one. And what @Scion of the Mists said--it's going to be even longer between books 5 and 6, so at least 5 years, maybe 10, between the books. That's a long time to wait for a cliffhanger for a writer like Brandon to leave us in.

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9 minutes ago, RShara said:

Okay, I see what you mean. But I really think he says more that it's two series, than one. And what @Scion of the Mists said--it's going to be even longer between books 5 and 6, so at least 5 years, maybe 10, between the books. That's a long time to wait for a cliffhanger for a writer like Brandon to leave us in.

I can see that point. I’m not sure that it would be as huge of a cliffhanger as you imagine, but I do see the problem of waiting minimum of five years for the continuation. I doubt Brandon won’t leave threads hanging though.

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