[OB] Is Nightblood a girl?

[Gray to]

So I know Nightblood technically doesn't have a gender, but people, including Vasher have always referred to it as a "he." But then I noticed this one line on page 1140 of Oathbringer.

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Oh, I wouldn't do that, the voice said. She seemed completely baffled, voice growing slow, like she was drowsy. But . . . Maybe I was just really, really hungry. . . .

This is from Lift's perspective. I wonder why Lift would think of Nightblood as a girl, while Vasher would think of it as a boy?

Also, small question. Brandon has said Nightblood is different from shardblade on that Nightblood destroys thing on all 3 realms. If so, then how do shardblades kill things?

[Calderis]

Nightblood isn't... 

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Heartlight

What is Nightblood's opinions on gender, and who decided on him having he/him pronouns?

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood is fascinated by gender, and trying to figure it out. Unlike spren like Syl, Nightblood has not self gender assigned as an influence of interacting with humans. That said, Vasher was probably the one who just started calling him He, so if you want to take the issue up with anyone, go to him.

source

Edit: as to the cutting thing... All Shardblades cut on all three realms... But most just cut. Nightblood obliterates and consumes the investiture with the tiniest scratch. 

Edited July 13, 2018 by Calderis

[Xtafa]

I just think that it is perspective. Same reason some people call cars a boy or a girl. 

[goody153]

Yeah shardbalde hits the physical and spiritual only afaik(physical only after there is nothing to hit in the spiritual). Nightblood sounds really scary to handle now that i think about it. 

Unlike living shardblades it doesn't really have control over it's form so if you aren't particularly good at the blade what if you ended up hitting yourself with Nightblood himself aren't you screwed ? Unlike living shardblades who probably dismiss themselves before hitting their own Radiant or even if it happens you just heal it anyways.

[Calderis]

All Shardblades cut on all three realms. 

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VindicationKnight

If a person in the Cosmere built a fully sentient and sapient robot would that robot have a soul? How would it interact with Shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It would interact with Shardblades the same way that Spren do.

VindicationKnight

How does a Shardblade interact with a Spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Shardblades cut on all three realms. I'm not going to say too much here, though I might note that it's possible a robot like you say would act more like nightblood than anything else--depends on what is involved in the creation, and how you determine the difference between a robot and a golem for these purposes.

source

 

[goody153]

So i'm now confused how Nightblood is much more destructive. Simply the scale of it's destructiveness ? 

Edited July 13, 2018 by goody153

[Calderis]

Yes. A Shardblade will cut and leave a limb dead. 

If Nightblood so much as scratches a person they pop to smoke. 

Context of this WoB says that Brandon misunderstood the question as Vasher fight with Nightblood 

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Will

Who would win in a fight? Vin, or Vasher, or the Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

And who would win in a fight between Vin and Vasher? It would probably depend on who got the jump on who. Vin's a bit more sneaky, so I have the feeling that Vasher would be in trouble if it involved sneaking, but Vasher is... he only has to get one little cut on you and you're gone so it, it would probably... my money would be on Vin.

source

 

[goody153]

Followup question: does that mean the fused and thunderclast that nightblood blew up in OB aren't completely dead ? Or Just returned to Braize or however Odium recycles the cognitive spirits ?
I was under the impression that whoever nightblood blew up is dead dead(which i thought was the difference between him and rosharian shardblades)

Edited July 13, 2018 by goody153

[StrikerEZ]

27 minutes ago, goody153 said:

Followup question: does that mean the fused and thunderclast that nightblood blew up in OB aren't completely dead ? Just returned to Braize or however Odium recycles the cognitive spirits. 
I was under the impression that whoever nightblood blew up is dead dead(which i thought was the difference between him and rosharian shardblades)

Yes, you are correct. Probably. I would assume they're dead for good, but we don't ave complete confirmation on that. It would be a good question to ask Brandon.

[Calderis]

Nightblood is one of the few things we have confirmed that Hoid couldn't recover from, and it would be capable of wounding a Shard. 

What Nightblood kills is dead.

Edit: perhaps my words were a bit strong regarding Hoid. 

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So, Hoid was not afraid of a Shardblade? Would he be afraid of Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Every rational person *laughter* who has ever existed in the cosmere is afraid of Nightblood, or should be. Hoid isn't always rational, but yes, he is afraid of him.

source

But Nightblood definitely destroys what it kills. 

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Questioner

So, if Nightblood, unsheathed, killed someone, would their soul still go to the Beyond?

Brandon Sanderson

So, that's gonna be a matter of-- There's gonna be disagreement in the cosmere about that. Nobody has been able to actively test it, because there are certain things you can see, but there are people who are actively discussing this concept.

Questioner

So, no one knows for sure?

Brandon Sanderson

Nobody knows for sure. And I'll just leave it at that. It's an astute question that even Vasher has-- Vasher has his thoughts, but he does not have a definitive answer, and others disagree with him.

source

If the question is if there's even enough of them left to go to the Beyond, there's definitely nothing left to remain. 

Edited July 13, 2018 by Calderis

[Weltall]

43 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Yes, you are correct. Probably. I would assume they're dead for good, but we don't ave complete confirmation on that. It would be a good question to ask Brandon.

It's been asked, can you guess what Brandon's reply was?

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Chaos [PENDING REVIEW]

When Nightblood killed the Fused, are those Fused souls retrievable?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

RAFO.

source

That said, since unsheathed Nightblood eats the Investiture in whatever it hits, it would presumably eat both the original soul of the Fused and whatever Odium did to them to make them reincarnating Cognitive Shadows. The Investiture wouldn't actually be irretrievably destroyed (following Cosmere Thermodynamics) but it would be changed so much that it's no longer recognizable as a Fused. That's my take at least.

And then whether the Fused (or any other sapient being that Nightblood kills) passes Beyond or not becomes a question for the philosophers and theologians.

[Journey Before Pancakes]

"Main" question gets two quick answers that seem to sum up the situation.

"Small" question about the realmatic nature of Nightblood and shardblades turns into a discussion taking up most of the thread.  This place is fantastic.

[CrazyRioter]

It seems most likely that those Fused are dead for real. Nightblood wrecks things pretty good.

@Journey Before Pancakes realmatics is far more interesting than gender.

[goody153]

I am assuming that whoever nightblood obliterates still go the beyond but has nothing left in the Cosmere world. 

If the fused are irretrievable does that mean Nightblood is basically Cosmere's balefire ? 

30 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

It seems most likely that those Fused are dead for real. Nightblood wrecks things pretty good.

@Journey Before Pancakes realmatics is far more interesting than gender.

Some inworld cosmere citizens like Wayne would argue that gender is far more interesting(especially the opposite gender) and that realmatics would make him yawn xD

Edited July 13, 2018 by goody153

[Wandering Investor]

9 hours ago, goody153 said:

I am assuming that whoever nightblood obliterates still go the beyond but has nothing left in the Cosmere world. 

The problem with this is that you get into the question of whether the cognitive shadow of somebody is still the actual soul. Did the investiture of the fused just copy the original, or did it infuse the original? It kinda seems like the second at times, but Brandon has thus far rafo'd it and said its a matter of debate among in cosmere philosophy. 

Spoiler

WeiryWriter

To what extent are Cognitive shadows the same as the individuals they are shadows of? Do you count them as the same person or are they just a "copy" so to speak? Or is this a discussion for philosophers (which you've said is the case with the cosmere's "far afterlife")?

Brandon Sanderson

I've considered answering this a few times, and have decided I just have to RAFO it. This is a discussion for philosophers, as you've said. It may become a plot point in future books.

source

Argent

We've seen cognitive shadows in the Cognitive Realm (e.g. Kelsier), and in the Physical (Returned, Shades, Heralds (kind of, sort of)). Is it alright to refer to shadows both with and without a body as "cognitive shadows"?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. The shadow is the spirit, though, so there is some distinction.

source

Khyrindor

You've said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows "stapled" back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Brandon Sanderson

Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created.

Recognize that the term cognitive shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I'm not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this:

Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality.

A mind (cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture.

When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul.

Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety.

linkhyrule5

Huh.

... Kandra are almost literally stapled to their bodies with Hemalurgy - would they count as such, to the in-setting scholars?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they wouldn't. They are beings who have had their souls twisted by Hemalurgy--the soul never left, it's just been messed up. Someone else who has a soul stapled to a body with Hemalurgy would count though.

source

Although I do agree the Nightblood would be able to absorb the extra investiture keeping the fused immortal. Whether there is a soul to be left behind, and whether it survives the attack, are unknown.

[Wyndlerunner]

Well if Nightblood is a girl, then Michael Kramer really needs to revamp the voice (His Nightblood sounds like a pompous British gentleman)

[Zelly]

On 7/13/2018 at 0:24 AM, goody153 said:

Some inworld cosmere citizens like Wayne would argue that gender is far more interesting(especially the opposite gender) and that realmatics would make him yawn xD

  Some inworld cosmere citizens like Wayne might also try to make out with Nightblood, so let's not include his judgement XD

 

On 7/13/2018 at 9:42 AM, Wandering Investor said:

Although I do agree the Nightblood would be able to absorb the extra investiture keeping the fused immortal. Whether there is a soul to be left behind, and whether it survives the attack, are unknown.

Brandon's RAFO about the Fused and Nightblood is verrrrrry interesting.

If the Fused don't go beyond after tangling with him, I wonder if Nightblood could somehow be "curing" the Fused of Odium's influence.....if the Fused are maintained by Odium's corrupted investiture, would removing his investiture leave them untainted somehow?  

[Radiant,Stick,Rathalas]

So, one of the things across the Cosmere that we see is that, while the Spiritual Realm is something like a font of Investiture and a confluence of many, many things from the other planes, Investiture can manifest pretty much any way the shard commanding that world and dominating it sees fit.  Preservation is REALLY good at this, working with the Mists, Snapping down to the level of being able to CHOOSE who and what abilities are granted, and, arguably, so is Cultivation.  Cultivation's CHILD, not even Cultivation herself, can twist large elements of reality for individuals, and the queen proper has shown that she can grant the ability to convert matter directly to Investiture via lift, an ability we see extensively on Scadrial.  Here's the thing.  Nightblood isn't just ravenously consuming and developing themself, the way a human can with Breath, or, theoretically, a spren, given that they seem like they might be able to derive Investiture and Identity in part from the thoughts of creatures in the Material Realm.  He's LEAKING.  And he leaks the same black smoke that people puff into, just more concentrated, and that is canonically Breath.  I'd be willing to bet he converts the Material and potentially Cognitive elements of what he destroys into Investiture and eats it, but it's super unclear how the Spiritual in general works.

[Duke of Lizards]

This topic has been fascinating. Can we talk about what would happen if Nightblood cut a shard? Like, Odium, perhaps...
 

[RShara]

3 hours ago, Duke of Lizards said:

This topic has been fascinating. Can we talk about what would happen if Nightblood cut a shard? Like, Odium, perhaps...
 

Maybe in a new post, since that's not really relevant to this particular topic, which is almost two years old? Also, there are WoBs about that.

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 7/13/2018 at 9:42 AM, Wandering Investor said:

The problem with this is that you get into the question of whether the cognitive shadow of somebody is still the actual soul. Did the investiture of the fused just copy the original, or did it infuse the original? It kinda seems like the second at times, but Brandon has thus far rafo'd it and said its a matter of debate among in cosmere philosophy. 

  Hide contents

WeiryWriter

To what extent are Cognitive shadows the same as the individuals they are shadows of? Do you count them as the same person or are they just a "copy" so to speak? Or is this a discussion for philosophers (which you've said is the case with the cosmere's "far afterlife")?

Brandon Sanderson

I've considered answering this a few times, and have decided I just have to RAFO it. This is a discussion for philosophers, as you've said. It may become a plot point in future books.

source

Argent

We've seen cognitive shadows in the Cognitive Realm (e.g. Kelsier), and in the Physical (Returned, Shades, Heralds (kind of, sort of)). Is it alright to refer to shadows both with and without a body as "cognitive shadows"?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. The shadow is the spirit, though, so there is some distinction.

source

Khyrindor

You've said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows "stapled" back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Brandon Sanderson

Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created.

Recognize that the term cognitive shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I'm not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this:

Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality.

A mind (cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture.

When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul.

Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety.

linkhyrule5

Huh.

... Kandra are almost literally stapled to their bodies with Hemalurgy - would they count as such, to the in-setting scholars?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they wouldn't. They are beings who have had their souls twisted by Hemalurgy--the soul never left, it's just been messed up. Someone else who has a soul stapled to a body with Hemalurgy would count though.

source

Although I do agree the Nightblood would be able to absorb the extra investiture keeping the fused immortal. Whether there is a soul to be left behind, and whether it survives the attack, are unknown.

I’d argue that the soul is separate from the three realms, but doesn’t go beyond until the person dies on all three. Since both the Beyond and the existence of a soul are really matters of faith, not realmatics.

[Odin1981]

I personally wonder if nightblood will be the instrument that gets rid of odium for good and then potentially a new fusing of the shards ado whatever occurs after. Though that would be very long term and maybe not even included in the storm light series outside of the odium bit.

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Odin1981 said:

I personally wonder if nightblood will be the instrument that gets rid of odium for good and then potentially a new fusing of the shards ado whatever occurs after. Though that would be very long term and maybe not even included in the storm light series outside of the odium bit.

 

[dgreene196]

On 7/14/2018 at 8:32 PM, Zelly said:

  Some inworld cosmere citizens like Wayne might also try to make out with Nightblood, so let's not include his judgement XD

 

Brandon's RAFO about the Fused and Nightblood is verrrrrry interesting.

If the Fused don't go beyond after tangling with him, I wonder if Nightblood could somehow be "curing" the Fused of Odium's influence.....if the Fused are maintained by Odium's corrupted investiture, would removing his investiture leave them untainted somehow?  

So, basically, in this conjecture, Odium's influence is a horcrux on the souls of the Fused?

[Odin1981]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

 

I just feel it is a possibility. Odium himself is a very powerful being. And nightblood can destroy all three realms of matter's being. It could easily be done as say a redemption arc of Szeth and it wouldn't take away from the series characters either.

However there is potential I feel for Odium to flee the system to continue a Cosmere plotline, if Odium was a bigger focus around the Cosmere as a whole. That way you could have one or multiple people from the storm light series become worldcallers or the planet hopper's I forget the correct terminology.