[OB] Sadeas Early Betrayal?

[Juanaton]

In one of Dalinar's early flashbacks (the one when he recruits Taleb), Sadeas says they need to get him some shardplate, not to protect Dalinar since he's "not sure a rock slide could kill [Dalinar]" but because it's embarrassing the others how much havoc he can cause without shards.

Years later, Dalinar and Sadeas are sent to subdue Rathelas after Gavilar has failed to do so politically. Evie prevails upon Dalinar to try negotiating one last time so he can avoid slaughtering all those "innocents." During the talks, Tanelon reveals that a high prince supposedly loyal to Gavilar has been helping him but won't name him because he won't be believed without Dalinar discovering it for himself...and shortly afterward evidence is presented that Sadeas is the culprit. Dalinar goes off to meet that threat, Tanelon betrays him, Sadeas arrives at the Rift, and the situation with Evie is set in motion.

Dalinar comes to the conclusion that Tanelon was framing Sadeas to sow discord in the king's supporters...but what if it wasn't a frame job? It's fairly obvious that Sadeas has been crafty for years and he's married to Ialai, another crafty, tricky, sneaky person. They are ambitious and power hungry. Sadeas may have been happy to have Gavilar as king and be the power behind the throne, but as long as Dalinar was around he wasn't the only power behind the throne. He was the political power, but Dalinar was the brute, military power, and Gavilar would turn to Dalinar instead of Sadeas at least part of the time. Dalinar on the other hand is very straight-forward and not likely to see through a convoluted plot. Sadeas could very well have been encouraging revolt at the rift, essentially playing both sides. He didn't want Tanelon to actually succeed, but he did want him to eliminate Dalinar. It would be far easier for Sadeas to make it look like he was supporting Tanelon (if this thought process is true), than for Tanelon to set up the framing himself. The appearance of evidence at just the right time would lure Dalinar away from the rift and there could only be two outcomes. Dalinar survives and returns to find Sadeas ready to attack Rathelas, confirming for Dalinar that Sadeas had been framed (even though he wasn't), or Dalinar dies, eliminating a threat to Sadeas, and Sadeas uses that as an excuse to destroy Rathelas anyway (double-crossing Tanelon who he never actually wanted to succeed), further cementing his influence with Gavilar.

Sure I've strung this together on less than a shoestring, but the trap for Dalinar used the very thing Sadeas mentioned as one of the only possibilities for killing him - a landslide. What do you think? Did Sadeas betray Dalinar MANY years before Gavilar's death, or was it their rivalry and different approaches to warfare on the Shattered Plains that finally pushed him into betrayal for the first time?

[Wandering Investor]

I suspect it was the death of Gavilar that pushed them apart. Sadeas was, or at least appeared to be, genuinely loyal to Gavilar. As such, I suspect the supposed betrayal was entirely engineered by Tanelon and entirely false. Its possible, but seems unlikely, considering later Sadeas attempted to mislead an assassin trying to kill Gavilar, regardless of the personal danger involved in doing so. The power vacuum left by Gavilar's death, Sadeas' ambitious nature, and Dalinar's taking up the codes and becoming a different person overnight, is probably the key factors that pitted Sadeas against Dalinar, but only some time after Gavilar's death.

[Wander89]

I agree with @Wandering Investor. The death of Gavilar showed two opposing forces trying to protect Elhokar but doing it in ways that one wanted to over-power the other. Sadeas was sneaky and manipulative but Dalinar was commanding and present amongs his forces. Once he took up the Codes it was like 2 different Dalinar's that Sadeas had now worked with and this one does not work to his advantage.

[goody153]

That was my suspicion that Sadeas is somehow behind it during the flashback part but however we also have a word that Sadeas truly believed in Gavilar's leadership and that time he may have not seen Dalinar as a threat to the throne or himself.

[Calderis]

It was foreshadowing. That was meant to appear as a throwaway line years before the rocks lode actually occurred.

If Sadeas had really been involved, once the trap had been sprung he'd have turned on the army and the rift never would have happened. 

Instead, he was still there when Dalinar returned and did as much or more with his troops to slaughter the people of Rathalas as Dalinar did himself. 

There is absolutely no way he was involved. 

Edited July 11, 2018 by Calderis

[Toaster Retribution]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

Instead, he was still there when Dalinar returned and did as much or more with his troops to slaughter the people of Rathalas as Dalinar did himself. 

 

If what the OP says is true, he would have done this anyway. 

[cfphelps]

I also was reminded of the "rockslide" line during a re-read, and wondered if it hinted at possible Sadeas involvement.  I don't think Sadeas being loyal to Gavilar necessarily would prevent him from trying to position himself better, as the defacto number 2 vs. sharing that title with Dalinar depending on the situation.  As the OP says, Sadeas could play the outcome and spin it as a framing if Dalinar survived, and if he didn't using that as justification (to the rest of the world) to attack the Rift in the name of vengeance.  He has no reason to like Tanelon, so that would just be a ploy to consolodate his power.

The fact that he gave it his all attacking the Rift doesn't really mean much IMO, as he'd want to be convincing in his outrage at being framed and the attack on Dalinar, and we already know he doesn't really care for the safety of his troops.

[Calderis]

Eh. Sadeas is dead, and the rift is gone. Every player in this act is removed. There's no twist to be had that effects anything at this point. 

Believe whatever you want about it, because there's literally no story impact. 

I just think that a throw away line in literally the first flashback, years before the rift was on anyone's radar is meant as simple foreshadowing to the reader, not a sign of a plot that only matters to the dead. 

Edited July 11, 2018 by Calderis

[LadyLameness]

I toyed around with the idea of Sadeas being involved in this plot for a while but was never able to fully resolve the issue I found. But here it is in unedited thought below: 

I think there is a case to be considered where Tanalan was telling the truth about Sadeas being the Highprince he was working with, however, I don't believe that he would have been working with Tanalan because he wanted him to win. Instead, Sadeas could have sided with Tanalan as a way to further provoke him in his rebellion against Gavilar, resulting in the King taking more drastic means to quelling the revolt. A lot of this is based on a quote from the original attack on Rathalas during Gavilar's unification campaign. 

Quote

“Sadeas, in turn, pushed Gavilar toward greater brutality. He claimed that the fiercer their reputation, the more cities would turn to them willingly rather than risk being pillaged.” Oathbringer, Chapter 11

Here's the thing: Tanalan and Rathalas have been the rebellious outlier since the beginning. For years after Tanalan's return, Gavilar tries to negotiate with Rathalas without success and negotiation obviously wasn't working. The other Highprinces were starting to question whether swearing their allegiance to Gavilar was worth it and their next move was very much going to be based on the outcome of the Rift's rebellion. Sadeas, however, was devoted to Gavilar's plans to a united Alethkar and no doubt has little issue with sacrificing a city if it means that the threat of rebellion from the Eastern Crownlands is quelled. 

So, Sadeas allies with Tanalan in secret, convincing him he has an ally in one of the King's closest confidents, and by doing so, pushing the rebellion to stand too firmly against the King. In turn, Gavilar sends Dalinar, his infamously murder capable brother, to end the rebellion and destroy the city.

This was Sadeas' plan - to use the Rift as an example that rebellion would not be tolerated and would be dealt with brutally. He wanted the Blackthorn to be sent to the Rift to cause destruction and chaos and engineered a situation where that would be the eventual outcome. 

The timing of the different armies arrivals also seems to lend itself to the above plans. It all works out remarkedly in Tanalan's favour with Dalinar's army arriving early and Sadeas' arriving several hours afterwards. There's even a line about how most of the events wouldn't have happened if Sadeas' army hadn't arrived later than Dalinar's. 

 

There are a number of issues that I have with this theory:

- I'm disinclined to believe that the escaped caravaneers weren't meant to be some sort of trap as they were dressed in the Sadeas house colours. Why give yourself away? Dalinar would believe Sadeas over Tanalan at this point, so what other purpose would Sadeas have to dress his men this way?

- I also agree that Sadeas didn't want to remove Dalinar from the picture until after Gavilar's death, so trying to have him killed at this point doesn't make any sense to me. I really can't see him being a big enough threat to Sadeas at this point for Sadeas to try and have him killed, and even if he was trying to assassinate him, there would be easier ways for him to do it.

- As Calderis said, this storyline is finished. There seems little to be gained by having a hidden conspiracy here.

 

Overall, I don't think that Sadeas was the Highprince involved. There's just too many rebuttals I see in the theory.

BUT, I like that someone else had similar thinking that I did. And also that there was a chance for me to post my dumb theory  

[cfphelps]

Good points! 

[Juanaton]

On 7/11/2018 at 9:26 AM, LadyLameness said:

BUT, I like that someone else had similar thinking that I did. And also that there was a chance for me to post my dumb theory  

I feel like your wording of the theory was somewhat clearer than mine...I think mine had more of a stream of consciousness feel to it. I have to admit, @Calderis point about it being a moot conspiracy is probably true...in fact, the only way I can see for it NOT to be that way is if the actual rebellious high prince survived unscathed and somehow continues plotting even now...which would mean the theory that Sadeas was behind it is wrong...AND it would seem to have been a resounding defeat of that unknown high lord's plot anyway.

[AceGambit]

Not all players are dead, Sadeas wife is still alive, if I remember correctly. I think it highly lightly removing Dalinar is something Sadeas would have done at this point, the country was pretty much unified and Dalinars heavy hand was no longer required. Although The Rift would have been destroyed regardless as retribution for killing Dalinar and Sadeas would have been the one to do it.

It would make an example of rebel’s,

Sadeas would become the ward for Dalinars wife and kids,

it removes Dalinar,

there are other reasons too

[Bigmikey357]

Why would Sadeas of all people become guardian of Dalinar's wife and children had Dalinar fallen? He's not a Kholin and Gavilar still lives.